C-Ranger 25, new or used?

D

Dene

New member
I wish I was making that decision now instead of 6 years from now, when we plan to buy one and embark on the Great Loop.

I was the Seattle Boat show today and got into an interesting discussion with a C-Ranger rep. He noted that the C-Ranger 21 depreciation has been minimal through the 10 years they have been building them. In addition, the original Nordic Tug 26 footers are probably worth more now than they were 20 years ago.

Which brings me to my question. Assume the C-Ranger 25 will incur minimal depreciation the next 5 years. Wouldn't it be smart to buy one new, enjoying the security of a warranty, vs. buying a used one. In our case, we would sell it after one year or so, perhaps losing 10-15k. That might be acceptable.

It's rather hard for me to think in this manner. All my toys were used. The laptop I'm pounding on was used. Heck, some of my clothes are used.

Oh....one more thing that really sells me about the C-Ranger, vs. other boats in it's size. They are now being optionally equipped with a Cummins 130 hp...a quieter and more powerful engine.

Nice!

-Greg
 
Ah the age old question....new or used. I don't know about the Ranger Tug specifically, but when it comes to boats I sure like knowing what has been done to it. Always get a survey when buying a used boat (this will cost around $350 and you should get a full written report). You can tell a lot from looking into the small spaces on a boat, but without pulling things off you don't know how well they were sealed (i.e. transducer installation) or if there is water damage. A moisture meter and a good surveyor with a hammer can tell a lot, but they don't go over every single inch. I personally prefer to buy new to enjoy the warranty and to install things right. If I don't install them right, at least it was my fault and I don't feel ripped off.
 
Greg - there is no "C" in Ranger any more. That was a joint business enterprise, where Ranger was building the boats and C-Dory was supposed to market them. That ended kind of quietly after barely getting started. They are pure Rangers now. You definitely want one with as high a serial number as you can get - this has undergone continual evolution, and as you noted, the Cummins 130 is now the engine of choice...
 
OK, here's another FREE opinion. As with all toys (cars, trucks, motorcycles and especially boats,) I've tried to buy new. Boats tend to track inflation, especially crude oil prices, since they're made of resin, among other things. Therefore, when I've sold one for the next, it's been for at least the price I paid for it. However the new one was always it's equal in price. That is, I essentially traded a 36' sailboat for a 25' power boat, courtesy of 10 years of inflation. Also I keep my boats for a long time.

Now as to the advantage of buying new. You have a direct say in what you're buying as to options, model, etc. It comes with a factory warranty, and I've learned to appreciate that. I know boats wear less than any other contrivances known to mankind. Try a desert bike, roll that sucker in the back of your truck, and you've lost 1/2 the price, without starting it. Still there is corrosion in the fittings (mostly on a sailboat,) cracks in the gel-coat, electronics going downhill, etc. At least when I go cruising, things start out in good shape.

When I looked for a used 36' sailboat, the pickings were slim, and the same for a C-25. There may be a better choice now, but not then. The used boats were well used and older. The factory does upgrade its product. And I hate to work on boats, I'd rather be on the water. There's enough work on a "new" boat to keep me busy.

So I've never regretted buying new. What I don't understand, Greg, is "In our case, we would sell it after one year or so, perhaps losing 10-15k. That might be acceptable. " If you're going to do that, why buy it in the first place?

I also understand that other people do it other ways. My brother only buys cars with over 100,000 miles. Our friend in Lummi Isl buys used boats, and spends a couple of years fixing them up. And they're just as happy ( and richer) than me.

Boris
 
I'm a proponent of two things when it comes to the new/used issue:

1.) Why take a 10-20% depreciation hit on a new boat? On a $150,000 boat, this amounts to $15,000-$30,00. Are there better things to spend your money on? How about improvements to a good, recent, used boat?

Let someone else take the depreciation hit!

2.) A fairly new quality used boat carefully selected from what's available over a period of time, can actually be better than a new boat!

Done right by the previous owner, the boat should have the new boat bugs removed and will usually have a lot of options and improvements that will cost you a lot less on the used boat!

Don't be in a rush to buy! Look for a high quality used boat taken care of by a knowledgeable owner. Not just any boat will do!

There will be a few very premium boats that are of exceptional value due to their care and modifications. Look through the seller's photo album to see how the boat has been used and modified. Some are absolute winners and serve as models of what can be done with a boat!

Some questions to ask:

What does the track record show for the Ranger Tugs on initial depreciation?

How often are they available? Are there different models? Engines?

What options do you want? What type of trailer will be best for you?

Are there particular models (or periods of time of production) that are particularly desirable or undesirable?

Is the warranty on the hull or other boat parts, like the engine, transferable to a second or new owner? For what period? Ditto for the optional equipment, like the electronics, windlass, etc.

How far will you be willing to travel to get the boat?

Is financing involved? How would it be different for a new vs. a used boat? Can you save money by some creative financing on your own?

Definitely try to avoid getting "upside down" on the loan where you owe more money than the boat's worth (difficult to sell).

I image this isn't everything to consider, but it'll be a start!

Cheers!

Joe. :thup :teeth
 
journey on":qzi5sspo said:
OK, here's another FREE opinion. As with all toys (cars, trucks, motorcycles and especially boats,) I've tried to buy new. Boats tend to track inflation, especially crude oil prices, since they're made of resin, among other things. Therefore, when I've sold one for the next, it's been for at least the price I paid for it. However the new one was always it's equal in price. That is, I essentially traded a 36' sailboat for a 25' power boat, courtesy of 10 years of inflation. Also I keep my boats for a long time.

Now as to the advantage of buying new. You have a direct say in what you're buying as to options, model, etc. It comes with a factory warranty, and I've learned to appreciate that. I know boats wear less than any other contrivances known to mankind. Try a desert bike, roll that sucker in the back of your truck, and you've lost 1/2 the price, without starting it. Still there is corrosion in the fittings (mostly on a sailboat,) cracks in the gel-coat, electronics going downhill, etc. At least when I go cruising, things start out in good shape.

When I looked for a used 36' sailboat, the pickings were slim, and the same for a C-25. There may be a better choice now, but not then. The used boats were well used and older. The factory does upgrade its product. And I hate to work on boats, I'd rather be on the water. There's enough work on a "new" boat to keep me busy.

So I've never regretted buying new. What I don't understand, Greg, is "In our case, we would sell it after one year or so, perhaps losing 10-15k. That might be acceptable. " If you're going to do that, why buy it in the first place?

I also understand that other people do it other ways. My brother only buys cars with over 100,000 miles. Our friend in Lummi Isl buys used boats, and spends a couple of years fixing them up. And they're just as happy ( and richer) than me.

Boris
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Excellent posts all around. I did not know that Ranger and C-Dory were apart.

Boris. We would likely sell after one year because the Loop trip would be done and we will move on to other adventures. Likely sailing in the winter. Fall and Spring in Az. Summers in the NW.

It will be interesting to see what's the market in 5 years, i.e. the inventory of Ranger boats. However, if it were now, it's seems the best choice would be to buy new, taking advantage of the warranty. There are very few, if any, creme puff, barely used Rangers out there. Even so, none will have the Cummins.

One thing is certain....my wife loves the Ranger over all boats in that class and larger. And it has to be Red.
 
I'm fascinated with a 130/150 HP Cummings diesel. Is this a American diesel or a foreign import sold under the Cummings name? We can only hope. Even the small Volvo uses a Japanese block.

We took 2 years to do 2/3 of the great loop. Plan to spend a little time visiting the East Coast, there are many wonderful things to see. At 6-8 knots, you also see a lot of countryside, And a side trip to the Bahamas. And, finally, that boat is good for a lot more beautiful cruising, which you may grow to love. The Gulf of California?.

And by the way you have two succinct arguments above: one for new and one for used. Both valid. And yes I have a lot of free time until 3 PM today.

Boris
 
Dene":83ct8yjs said:
We would likely sell after one year because the Loop trip would be done and we will move on to other adventures.
Click to expand...

If that is your plan, definitely buy used! You would be crazy to buy a new boat and sell it in a year. You would be very likely to get a big depreciation hit. I assumed you were buying for keeps when I suggested buying new above.
 
A boat is a depreciating asset. Consider 15 to 20% depreciation the first year--this may or may not be true for a Ranger Tug. But, you pay a sales tax of 5 to 9%, you may pay property taxes of up to 5% a year. You pay a substantial dealer commission (hidden on the new boat), but it comes out when you sell, especially if you use a broker. You have the costs of electronics and "extras" Bottom paint, wear and tear etc. If you finance it--add in almost all of the interest for the peroid you own it.

I have purchased 3 new boats--out of over 20 boats over 25 feet in lenght I have owned. (This does not include the boats I built) I have made some money only on used boats, which had some very specific characteristics). All of the new boats have depreciated substantially. Some boats have increased in value in the years, but not keeping up with inflation. Put your money in some good investment and buy the boat when you want it.

Problems: I don't think that buying a new boat guarantees that you will not have problems, or have to fix the problems yourself in a remote area. You will have some factory back up. If you rebuild a boat, it will be easier to fix, since you are familiar with the boat.

Survey: Certainly are recommended, but unfortunately they do not guarantee that there will not be problems. Some surveyors are better than others. Some are good, some are not. You have to find (not from the seller or a dealer) a very good hull surveyor and a very good engine surveyor (separate from the hull).

Although the Ranger Tug could easily do the loop, I am not sure I would buy one for that specific purpose. The beauty of the Ranger Tug is that it is trailerable. This is not necessary for the loop. Better for the loop would be a used diesel "trawler"--which will probably cost less, have more room, and be slightly more effecient at displacement speeds.

The Cummins 130 (which I would not order--I would go with the 150), is the 3.9L 4 cylinder block. It is the "B" series--like the 5.9B classic Cummins engine. It rates at 76 hp Natural aspirated, 150 hp intermittant Turbo charged. Not sure that there is really any difference between the 130 and 150, but the 150 is rated at 2800 RPM and the 130 at 2500 continious duty. Continious means 6/12 hours at rated full power, Intermittant is 2 hours out of 8 hours at rated full power.

I would want to see how the 130/150 performs in a fully loaded boat, and see if it comes up to anticipated speed with the weight of cruising gear aboard.
 
thataway":1un1xp75 said:
A boat is a depreciating asset. Consider 15 to 20% depreciation the first year--this may or may not be true for a Ranger Tug. But, you pay a sales tax of 5 to 9%, you may pay property taxes of up to 5% a year. You pay a substantial dealer commission (hidden on the new boat), but it comes out when you sell, especially if you use a broker. You have the costs of electronics and "extras" Bottom paint, wear and tear etc. If you finance it--add in almost all of the interest for the peroid you own it.

I have purchased 3 new boats--out of over 20 boats over 25 feet in lenght I have owned. (This does not include the boats I built) I have made some money only on used boats, which had some very specific characteristics). All of the new boats have depreciated substantially. Some boats have increased in value in the years, but not keeping up with inflation. Put your money in some good investment and buy the boat when you want it.

Problems: I don't think that buying a new boat guarantees that you will not have problems, or have to fix the problems yourself in a remote area. You will have some factory back up. If you rebuild a boat, it will be easier to fix, since you are familiar with the boat.

Survey: Certainly are recommended, but unfortunately they do not guarantee that there will not be problems. Some surveyors are better than others. Some are good, some are not. You have to find (not from the seller or a dealer) a very good hull surveyor and a very good engine surveyor (separate from the hull).

Although the Ranger Tug could easily do the loop, I am not sure I would buy one for that specific purpose. The beauty of the Ranger Tug is that it is trailerable. This is not necessary for the loop. Better for the loop would be a used diesel "trawler"--which will probably cost less, have more room, and be slightly more effecient at displacement speeds.

The Cummins 130 (which I would not order--I would go with the 150), is the 3.9L 4 cylinder block. It is the "B" series--like the 5.9B classic Cummins engine. It rates at 76 hp Natural aspirated, 150 hp intermittant Turbo charged. Not sure that there is really any difference between the 130 and 150, but the 150 is rated at 2800 RPM and the 130 at 2500 continious duty. Continious means 6/12 hours at rated full power, Intermittant is 2 hours out of 8 hours at rated full power.

I would want to see how the 130/150 performs in a fully loaded boat, and see if it comes up to anticipated speed with the weight of cruising gear aboard.
Click to expand...

As usual, terrific advice, Dr. Bob.

Regarding your three new boats, I recall that your current TomCat was purchased new. Do you regret that decision, as opposed to waiting a couple of years, for a barely used one? Like yourself, I have purchased used boats (5 so far) and made money on three of them (barely).

Secondly, the price of the Cummins as an option for 5k for the 130 hp, 9k for the 150 hp. The 4k difference seems quite a bit for just 20 hp.

Also, the trailerable aspect of the Ranger doesn't appeal to us. We like the boat's layout and size. I wouldn't purchase a trailer until the Loop is done, if we decided to keep the boat. In essence, we view the tug as a diesel fast trawler, able to do 17 knots if needed. I haven't seen one that is comparable to the Ranger in performance, quality, price, layout and finish.

As for repairs, I am not a DIY guy, nor ever will be. My wife says there are two types of men. Handy and Handsome. She thinks I'm exceptionally "handsome." :oops: Given this, I would prefer to buy SeaTow or similar service and get towed to the nearest dealership or boatyard, knowing that Ranger or Cummins will be paying the tab.

Another makes the point that boating the Loop could take more than a year. That could be true for us as well. My wife has never been to the east coast. We would want to spend a fair amount of time in Savannah, Charlotte, D.C., New York, Philadelphia, etc.

-Greg
 
The other side of the coin.

Question of new or used.

1. New to the market makes that difficult to buy used.
2. How many years have we got to wait to find one used?
3. New with 5 yr. warranty gives peace of mind.
4. Once you know the boat you want, You don't look for another good used make or model. If you do you will probably never be happy with it.
( There has never been a product make that couldn't be made worst for less money.) that applys to boats as well as any product. Don't look for cheap.
5. It is possible the Ranger could increase in value. Grand Banks is a good example of that. A 36 ft. bought for $50,000 25 years ago can run $125,000 today.

Question about surveys.

1. Some will know less about surveying a boat than you do and they will charge you $350 and up.
2. If you want a survey for your insurance company, it is one thing, to find defects in the boat is another.
3. If you want a survey to sell your boat, you want a different survey.
4. If you really want to know about a boat, Sea trial it for a good long time in rough seas at all speeds.
5. Take an oil sample,Engine(s) and transmission. send it in for analyses to an independent lab. Do same on gen set.
6. Tap every square in of the hull yourself and look for blisters while you are at it.
7. Check all window frames for rot. or leaks.
8. Check wiring condition and that all are marine grade.
9. Check surveyors paperwork, and years of experience.
10. As someone mentioned above do not use one recomended by dealers
owners. These surveyors are on they payroll.
There are good qualified surveyor out there , the trick is to find one. They should have a certificate from their association. Check it out.

11. Never believe what seller tells you. Check for yourself. In other words don't trust but verify. There are a lot of crooks in the boating business.
This applies to used
But when you buy NEW you have a factory and a dealer who have a reputation to look after.

I will take the hit every time..................except when buying a small pontoon boat or a fishing boat. I did buy a Boston Whaler from a man I never met and a boat I never seen. You can trust a C-Brat. Thanks Casey.
captd
 
The excitement of a new Ranger 25 aside, and purely on a financial basis, I would recommend buying used in your case. Especially if you know in advance you're going to sell after 1 year. The first year of vehicle ownership is always the most expensive, and this is particularly true with boats due to rigging, commissioning, electronics, depreciation, etc. Thereafter the variable cost of ownership is appx. 10% of the boat's value per year to own, operate and maintian. For the privelege of a brand spankin new boat you'd be paying an incredibly steep price! You mention the Nordic 26 as an alternative: you could probably find one bristol, repowered and loaded with electronics for well under 100K, use it for the year, then sell it for what you paid; maybe more if you buy it right. (With the Nordic 26 do some research: I've heard they have tracking challenges). Consider expanding your choice beyond these 2 models and you'll find marina's chock full of sound used boats right now where the owners are very willing to deal. If you're flexible in this regard you could come out $20K or more ahead in a year's time. Just my opinion....Mike.
 
So where was I when they started offering Cummins? How did you all find that out? Did they also make a new option for the 21?
 
Possible strategy:

How far down will boat prices go if/when/and how far we go into the recession?

How far down would the prices have to go to make it advantageous to buy at the bottom, assuming a full recovery?

On Edit:
(I know this is an extremely complex question and untold variables, perhaps the only real answer is to compute all the possibilities as we go along and go with your best guess if it would seem particularly advantageous and worth the risk.)

Joe. :?:
 
lloyds":1e3qv0he said:
So where was I when they started offering Cummins? How did you all find that out? Did they also make a new option for the 21?
Click to expand...

Ranger has been testing the new Cummins engines for several months. The semi-official announcement (another Wefing's first) was made on December 5th when the first Sold Order was placed for the boat that will be shown in the Cummins On-Water Display at the Miami International Boat Show next month.

I currently have some performance data on the 150 if anybody would be interested in it. Both the 130 ($5000) and the 150 ($8000) are electronically controlled CRD's (Common Rail Diesel) that are lighter, quiter and more fuel efficient than the Yanmar 110. In testing at the factory they have squeezed 22.1 kts. out of a 150 hp boat with 3 people aboard...it actually PLANES!!!

We do have one more production slot available at 2008 pricing with the Cummins and two with the "No Cost" Yanmar 110, (one complete and in transit and another not yet in production). All three come with what you can't get elsewhere at any price, the Wefing's Total Commitment to Customer Satisfaction!

There may actually be used R-25's available in 5-6 years when people either tire of boating, upsize, downsize or expire. However, I know of only one used R-25 that has been available so far and I sold that one last month!

Another thing to consider is that Ranger will be unveiling a new R-27 sometime late this year or early next. From what I hear there will be more cockpit room and lots more storage space...and keep the 8'6" beam so as to be completely trailerable. Whatever you decide one thing is for sure...new boats will never be priced less than they are right now!

Charlie
 
SGIRhino":20eu70d5 said:
lloyds":20eu70d5 said:
So where was I when they started offering Cummins? How did you all find that out? Did they also make a new option for the 21?
Click to expand...

Ranger has been testing the new Cummins engines for several months. The semi-official announcement (another Wefing's first) was made on December 5th when the first Sold Order was placed for the boat that will be shown in the Cummins On-Water Display at the Miami International Boat Show next month.

I currently have some performance data on the 150 if anybody would be interested in it. Both the 130 ($5000) and the 150 ($8000) are electronically controlled CRD's (Common Rail Diesel) that are lighter, quiter and more fuel efficient than the Yanmar 110. In testing at the factory they have squeezed 22.1 kts. out of a 150 hp boat with 3 people aboard...it actually PLANES!!!

We do have one more production slot available at 2008 pricing with the Cummins and two with the "No Cost" Yanmar 110, (one complete and in transit and another not yet in production). All three come with what you can't get elsewhere at any price, the Wefing's Total Commitment to Customer Satisfaction!

There may actually be used R-25's available in 5-6 years when people either tire of boating, upsize, downsize or expire. However, I know of only one used R-25 that has been available so far and I sold that one last month!

Another thing to consider is that Ranger will be unveiling a new R-27 sometime late this year or early next. From what I hear there will be more cockpit room and lots more storage space...and keep the 8'6" beam so as to be completely trailerable. Whatever you decide one thing is for sure...new boats will never be priced less than they are right now!

Charlie
Click to expand...

After reading this, I feel better about having to wait five years, given the improvements to the existing R-25 and now a new Ranger coming to market. I think having the Cummins 150 is the way to go. Planing power when you need it, especially if you're chasing daylight or running from a storm.

Re. the R-27, is it going to utilize space better in the cabin, specifically the rather useless berth under the salon?

Also, the used R-25 you sold. Was the sale price significantly lower than the cost of a new one? I suspect not.

-Greg
 
Dene":fry1wkhb said:
Also, the trailerable aspect of the Ranger doesn't appeal to us....I wouldn't purchase a trailer until the Loop is done, if we decided to keep the boat.
Click to expand...

That's fine if the Ranger you're anticipating buying happens to already be located on or near the Loop. But the trailerability means that you could open yourself up to used boats anywhere in the country - in 10 years, that could be California or even the PNW (where they are built). It would also mean that you could get a chance to outfit and familiarize yourself with the boat near your home in WA before transporting it to the Loop.

And then, of course, there's the slight chance that your plans might change! <smile>

Keith
 
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