C-Dory Quality Control

We are continually making improvements to our boats thanks in a large part to the C-Brats feedback. We know how lucky we are to have the kind of relationship that we have with our customers. We are not perfect. We do make errors, but the bottom line is that we are continually striving to do a better job.

Bob had great input on his Tomcat and all of his ideas were looked at by our engineering and production team. We take our customers feedback very seriously. Much of Bob's input has been put into place including sealing around the joint between the hardtop and the deck.

Thank you,

Jeff
 
Bill is correct that generally speaking the vertical part of the end grain of balsa is a closed cell wood and water does not migrate normally. It appeared in my 22 that this area was sealed with foam or some other similar material. Some areas of the TC 255 cabin top to vertical pilot house walls are sealed with foam, others are open--the area I am sepecifically concerned about is on the back, but extends around the sides, there is a lip of the cabin top above. In a several foot area one can get a finger between the cabin top and the end of the laminate. The total area which needs sealing (in my opinion) is about 20 linleal feet. I just measured the gap under the lip aft. The height (top to bottom is just over half an inch (index finger easy is inserted and end grain felt)--The depth which I can put a tape measure into this gap is about 3/4" (the tip of the blade on the end of the tape measure is 3/8" thick, so it is not just a very narrow area which is void). The interior is sealed with tape and resin, so that no water would get inside of the boat. I don't know exactly what the thickness of the Balsa in this area is, but I would guess by feel that it is 1/2" at least--maybe 5/8".

As Bill says, the front has loads of sealant--and is more likely to take water up under this area. I do disagree with Bill slightly--and this is based on my "Autopsy" of twenty hurricane wrecked boats (maybe not a good comparison with the well built C Dory)--which I did this last January as part of our non destructive testing project. Exposed balsa (the end grain goes to the laminate, and the cell length [walls of the cells] are between the laminate at right angles to the laminate, so that the actual end grain is not exposed). We chopped up 20 cored boats --some foam some plywood and some balsa. We macrophotographed after smooth finishing the laminates and core. We then used these as controls in the lab using our ultra sonic methods (both direct, echo, sender/reciever on back surface and pitch & catch--separate sender and reciever with variable distance and angles foth those who might be technically minded). We found that there is some minor intrusion of fungi into balsa laminates, but for the most part they survived the 15 months since the storm amazingingly well.

However we have put some samples which are the vertical grain, as in the C Dory and mold will grow if water stays there on a flat surface without drying. The difference between the PNW and Florida, is that the weather is hot most of the year, humidity is quite high, and spray can get into a creavice and then be hydroscopic, and allow detiorration to occur. Has this happened in a C Dory? Not to my knowlege. I have said, that I am very perticular and want to avoid problems with cored hulls and other structures. When I am talking about cored hulls, I use C Dory as an very good example of an excellent core--where the laminate is thick enough--and totally sealed--so that problems do not occur. But I think that under the environmental conditions we have here, there is a potential for problems, so I am sealing this up.

The process of repair is a quite a bit more than a few minutes. First any debris (and there is quite a bit) has to be removed, then the area lightly sanded, and cleaned with acetone, the gelcoat masked below the caulk line, a device has to be fabricated to allow the compound to reach around a 90 degree bend and fill the void areas. Finally the gloved finger or a plastic spatchula has to smooth and fair off any excess butyl caulk and the tape removed.

I agree with Bill, that this problem is not a reason to reject C Dory as a boat--and I really feel badly that Seeker feels that this is, because it is something which can be resloved. If you really want to know about core problems read: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/cored_hull_bottoms.htm
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/structuralissues.htm
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm in which David Pascoe says:
"By sandwiching end grain cut balsa between two layers of fiberglass, this creates the effects of a truss and significantly stiffens up large flat panels. It was a perfect solution for floppy decks but for one thing: balsa is wood, and it will absorb a lot of water. As long as you design the structure right, with no fasteners going through the core, water won't get into it and it won't be a problem.

That notion is well and good but for one thing: Boat builders understood this, but no one else did. So people went merrily on their way drilling their decks and house tops full of holes to mount things. Water then got into the core and 10, 15 or 20 years later we're back to floppy decks again because the core eventually rotted. Next, they started using balsa to stiffen up hull sides because builders realized that they could cut some material out, ostensibly save a little money on thinner laminates. A few builders decided to go whole hog and use balsa for the entire hull, with disastrous results. One cannot use balsa underwater and not expect it fill up with water, which is what they all did. Ergo, the rule in boat building became: core only to the waterline.

This worked out pretty well because people generally don't go drilling the hull sides full of holes like they do the decks and house tops. Of course there were always a few, but by and large, balsa coring in hulls sides worked out just fine. Made the boat much quieter inside, too."

and: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/more_on_cores.htm

You may say this is too much of David Pascoe--but although he may take things to the extreme to make a point--virtually all of what he says is valid. My recommendation to all boat buyers is to read David Pascoe's complete set of articles--and if you are really inquesitive buy his books.

So--knowing all of this, I still purchased a C dory and feel it is a good hull--and as I emphasized that these are quality control issues. The C Dory has been traditionally a West Coast boat--mostly PNW and inland, with few on the East coast or South--that is rapidly changing, and I would not want reputation to be damaged by core problems. Thus I am going to be filling all of these voids.
 
thataway":25a8a0pr said:
The process of repair is a quite a bit more than a few minutes. First any debris (and there is quite a bit) has to be removed, then the area lightly sanded, and cleaned with acetone, the gelcoat masked below the caulk line, a device has to be fabricated to allow the compound to reach around a 90 degree bend and fill the void areas.

It does sound like there is quite a bit more of a void on the TomCat, as compared to the 16/19/22's I've seen. And if I understand your description correctly, it does indeed sound like it would hold standing water.

In which case, you bet...I'm glad you pointed it out, and it's great to read Jeff's comments indicating C-Dory is addressing the issue on future boats.

Thanks again for all your input on the TC255, Bob. I'm very interested in upgrading in a few years, and I've had a soft spot for the Tomcat design ever since Dusty let me take the helm of his TC24 a few years ago.

As such, it's a boat I very much enjoy reading about around here, and should I find myself owning one down the road, I'll be even more grateful for the input you've provided to us and C-Dory.
 
Bob,

Thanks for posting the subject of sealing the roof join. Having suffered the joys of an older wood cored boat (not CD) this got me all paranoid until I went out and checked my 2006 CD22 and found that it was sealed all the way around.

Didn't say it was perfect, I have had to re-do or correct a number of small items but far less than I had with two previous (& more expensive) powerboats.

The main thing I found annoying about the CD faults is that they were all very clear and detectable with having an army of inspectors so I put it down to the problems of building up to higher production throughputs and people rushing jobs more than they would normally have done. Hopefully that is/was a transient situation.

Merv
 
I feel as a dealer I need to add some info to this thread , and clarify some things as well as state our mission as a C Dory dealer . I just inspected hull # 40 which we are delivering next . The cabin top is fully sealed .The boat that Bob's friends are getting this week is hull # 48 which is also sealed .
The Tomcat has been in a continual state of improvement since its inception and when Bob's boat came to us it was our third one . We were not as familiar with the systems on the boat at that time , and I must say , a customer such as Bob has helped us , as well as C Dory to improve our delivery process as well as the product . Many things have changed for the better . A perfect example is the NMMA certification process.
We work with a number of boat companys other than C Dory, and I can tell you from my experiences that no one is as dedicated to customer service and empowering their dealers to provide excellent customer service than C Dory . They also respond very quickly to input both from customers and dealers . And we have certainly provided some .
As a dealer we will do whatever it takes to take care of a problem for a customer . We know we have the support of the factory , and that makes it easier to drop everything and travel to or pick up a boat , or fedx a part ,or authorize a repair by an outside vendor, as we know we will be compensated and the customer will be taken care of . We want our customers to have a trouble free boating experience , but as we all know they have not built that perfect boat as yet , nobody has .
So as a dealer we are the link between the factory and the customer . Sometimes its a hard position to be in , but most of the time its a great position as we have and will make every effort to satisfy our customers and provide unexpectedly great customer service .C dory shares that philosophy Im sure . And the C Dorys are great boats .
Marc
 
I must say Raven Dancer has had a few problems, But I also must say Sportcraft Marina has done above and beyond to correct them and C-Dory has been very concerned that we are taken care of.
It kind of reminds me of the old saying "If a tree fall in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make any noise ?" Well if a boat problem is fixed without any problems and you are told that you will be taken care of no matter what is there really any problems ?
I must say thank you to the factory (Jeff) and to Sportcraft (Ryan) for taking the stress out of any "problem" that came up !
Big Dave, Raven Dancer.
 
Thanks to Jeff and Mark who point out that the boats are now completely sealed--My boat is #39.

I just updated my album and the last photo (sorry not better resolution)--is of the laminate which I took out of the cabin roof when I cut out for the air conditioner mounting brackets. I smoothed and measured this--the outer layer is 1/4" of solid glass laminate, with one layer of coremat. The laminate is so good I cannot tell which is mat, roving and cloth without taking a chizzel to it. Next is 1/2" of end grain balsa core and finally the 1/8" of inner glass. Both layers of glass have very adequate gelcoat. This laminate is better than any deck laminate I took out of the 20 boats we disected by far--all of these boats were at least 29 feet and several in the 40 foot size range.
 
I posted a few days ago that the sump pump did not work. Here is the E mail I sent to the factory and dealer:

"I did finally get a call from the technician at C Dory. He was very nice and sympathetic---He immediately told me where the fuse was (second down on the left of main fuse block)--no switch on the circuit. Since the fuse was good, his conclusion was either the float switch or pump.

WRONG. After confirming that I have power to the circuit, I broke open the tapped connection in the bilge. Immediately the #18 or less size gray wire (positive to the float switch) was loose. Exmaination showed that when the wire was stripped--it was cut thru completely. The insullation came to the end of the wire. Examination of the crimp fitting revealed that it was yellow (#10-12 wire--appropiate for the green with yellow tracer from the fuse block), and not at all appropiate for the #18 or smaller wire (should be red connector) connector for the pump wire. I bared the wire, and stuck it into the yellow crimp fitting, and immediately a small arc and the pump came on. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for:

#1. using an inappropiate size connector--there are reduction crimp connectors or you could use quick disconnects of diffrent sizes with silicone grease for corrosion protection, .

#2. The person installing the wiring did an impropper stripping proceedure of the wire

#3. The person doing the wiring did not check the circuit.

#4. If the sump pump was checked at quality control, it did not work--apparently nothing was done to rectify the problem--and I remain suspicious that someone then disconnected the shower drain, so it would drain directly into the bilge. The shower was disconnected when I got the boat.

#5. The dealer should have checked the sump pump prior to delivary.

I have both built boats and restored several boats--I always made sure that proper connectors were used. I also put in a circuit which would switch the shower sump pump--first position automatic, second position directly to the pump, so in case of failure, float switch could be bypassed and the sump remain functional.

Some may find it acceptable to drain shower water into the bilge. There are a number of reasons, including serious safety reasons why shower water should not go into the bilge (either directly from the shower or overflow from the shower sump pump). Shower water in a bilge will quickly sour. There is hair in shower drain water, which will render the bilge pump inoperable.

I would like an explaination directly from the President of C Dory as to how and why this happened. For a younger man, who is in good health, replacement of these crimps is awkward--for myself, who has dissability with severe back disease it becomes an excerise in excrutiating pain.

I hope that this is the last issue of quality control I find on this hull. I have not had a chance to check the fuel system after installing the new anti siphon valve, so there is still a minor question in my mind with that issue.
I will be checking it in the next several days. The leaking gas out of the stb vent issue is not solved, except by my keeping the boat airconditioned in the hot weather, and keeping the tank no more than 2/3 filled"

Again this is just carelessness and quality control--no reflection on the overall quality of the hull and product.
 
I mentioned that I would follow up on the latest Tom Cat from the dealer I used: Alok and Charlie have now posted their experience on the "Gulf Coast Tomcats" Thread. They basically had no problems, and a long demo with both the mechanic and owner of the dealership.

Alok has visited my boat twice and Charlie once--it was my pleasure to house them. They are both truely remarkable people! They knew every problem I had, and they knew exactly what to look for-- they saw and had hands on for every problem which I have had--we had hours to go over these.

Definately I agree with Alok that both the factory and dealer have taken what has been mentioned in my and some other posts very much to heart and made rectifications.

Scott Reynolds, president of C Dory called me, and we talked for half an hour. I had a follow E mail from Jeff about exactly what was being implimented at the factory to prevent re-accurances.

I am truely sorry to have been the "Bad guy". But I do belive that it has made C Dory and at least this one dealer wake up to some significant problems, address and resolve these problems. Not the first time (and probably not the last) that I have been an activist. I have almost all of the problems on my boat resolved--and truely believe that it is a good solid boat.
 
I have to echo what Bob Austin has said in his recent post.

I had the opportunity to go over Bob's boat in great detail on my two visits to his house...(Bob and Marie are such gracious hosts that I HAD to go back!).

No question that there were issues with Bob's boat. He and I went over these in depth "hands-on", so I knew what to look for when I took delivery. His hull # is 39; ours is 48. I do not know in what sequence the hulls were laid down, but as far as I could tell, every major issue that Bob pointed out had already been addressed.

I also need to add that Jeff Messmer called me at home about a month prior to the delivery of my boat and told me that he had personally gone over it prior to shipping. Two days ago, I again had reason to contact him with a question. He answered my e-mail promptly and gave me the information I needed.

As I stated in the "Gulf Coast Tomcats" thread, our experience with both C-Dory and the dealer was completely satisfactory. Had there been quality control issues? No question. Was the factory listening and responsive- it certainly seems so from our experience.

I must also say a big "Thank you" to Bob. As all of us know, his knowledge of things nautical is unbelieveable. Throughout this process, he has been a constructive voice that has truly served the C-Dory community- both the factory and the customers. Thank you, Bob.

Now, back to boating.
 
I would appreciate hearing from any reader who recieved a PM from a dealer about the issues on my boat. I recieved a copy of this PM today and will address it individually if others have been coppied.

Bob Austin
 
The PM will not be posted on the list. So far it appears to have only been sent to one C Bratt and then forewarded to me. I will only discuss the PM specifics with a person it has been sent to--and the moderator has been notified.

Regards,
 
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the great photos, and all of the messages you post on the Brat site. Should save them all in a three ring binder and eventually C-Dory could have a real manual. I have learned a lot from your posts.

I recently spent eleven straight nights on my 22 and it was pretty serendipitous. I think your TC is coming together and the bad memories will fade and you will be left with only minor tweaks. The problems you have/had with Thataway are somewhat similar to those I have had with my 22 but on a far grander scale. A couple of times I sent emails and phone conversations with the factory just blowing off steam to the effect "how could you be so stupid, how could this boat get out the door like this." The factory's answer has always been "It was really stupid, it should not have gone out the door like that, what can we do to fix it." So although I wish my boat had been inspected better before it was shipped I don’t have a complaint with the factory and, in fact, I like Jeff and those Reynolds brothers.

Part of my problem was that I bought the boat without a local dealer. My boat is a 2004 that I bought in April 2005. One hour on each engine. The broker had been a C-Dory dealer for many years, but is no longer. The engines and much of the electrical were rigged by a large Honda dealer, also in WI. These outfits are about an eleven hour trip from where I live.

I had fuel tank, rub rail, cabinet, and hull problems, not even fender washers on some cleats let alone no backing plates, etc., that were likely the fault of C-Dory. The electrical problems I had I was never sure who did what, all I knew was that it was stupid and didn't make any sense and there were a lot of inferior components used. The electrical was done in WI at a different dealer than the broker I purchased from. So this spring I did a major redo of all electrical in the cockpit and a minor redo of electrical ahead of cockpit. Works great, I now know what everything is supposed to do, and it does it (so far of course).

I had some engine problems as well that Honda said was a dealer issue. The dealer being an eleven hour trip (one way) was hardly economical. So I spent several hundred $ at my local Honda dealer fixing engines.

So I had fuel tank, hull, electrical, and engine trouble with my brand new boat. The cabinets didn't fit, rub rail screws showed through, blah blah,

Okay now the point of this whole story -
On my recent eleven night trip everything ran and worked great. The engines started and ran great. Two lockmasters said "Boy those Hondas are quiet (course they weren't in my cabin). It appears the leaky stem guard has been successfully repaired (following yours and Roger's suggestions). The larger fuel tanks, with those nice inspection window panels are dressy. When I go on my boat I almost always come back with new things on my "to do" list. Either repairs or mods to make fishing or cruising better. Well after eleven nights on the water there is nothing new on my list.

A few things I tried on this trip worked well and I will incorporate them (cooler for footstool, lightweight fleece sleep bag as well as heavier one, folding bicycle, etc.) but nothing to fix, oh boy. And it is really true, as I said when I posted about the trip, that I wouldn't have traded boats with anyone on the river. (When the big lakes kick up and for fishing I sometimes wouldn't mind my old boat or better yet your TC now that it is all set up!!).

So the frustration I know you feel "Darn it (not what I really say) because the factory screwed up, it is now going to take me umpteen hours of my personal time and pain to fix this - and it doesn't help a lot to know that they would fix it for me if I lived in Washington." Also it is just plain mysterious to me that they would let some of this stuff slop through at all.

Well eventually it will be fixed, and fixed right, and you will know that is true because you did it, or oversaw it, yourself . You shouldn't have had to do this but the pain will fade and the knowledge and pride will remain. That is to say the time will come when – You feel darn good about your boat. Okay, so that is my hang-in-there message to you.

I don’t know what your situation is with your dealer except that the dealer is some distance away and you have fixed some stuff yourself like I have done. But the factory guys are always polite. They sent me a cap and jacket for fixing the stem guard. They have always offered to have the repairs done at the factory, or at a dealer, or even at a non-C-Dory dealer if that was easier for me. I think that is about as good as they can do. I have always done the work myself figuring that I may be slow but no one else cares as much.

I think you have shown tremendous restraint throughout the purchase and testing and fitting out process. And I am grateful for your participation on this board and trust your judgment and statements about your purchase experience. I trust time will prove you made a sound purchase.

Regards, Mark
 
Well chalk up one more quality control issue. Some empolyee didn't tighten the nut on the fuel line to the Wallas stove--thus the fuel pump would not pick up fuel and the stove failed to light. (Incidently the wiring seems to be a smaller size than Wallas recommends--and the circuit is not labled, so I had to pull 3 fuses to find the correct one to reset the computer on the stove.) This nut was not even finger tight--I got about half a turn with my fingers before I needed to put a wrench on it to cinch it up tight.
 
Passing Thoughts-

I'm kind of amazed at the number of problems folks are having with the New TomCat 255 and to a lesser extent, the CD-25's.

Add to that the development issues with the C-Ranger 25, and one has to think a bit.

It's a good thing that the solid reputation of C-Dory is strong enough to withstand and overcome these distractions.

I'm hoping these issues get resolved as much and as soon as possible, and I'm sure this C-Brat site will continue to serve as a communication and advice center for those affected.

Joe.
 
I'm kind of amazed at the number of problems folks are having with the New TomCat 255 and to a lesser extent, the CD-25's.

Add to that the development issues with the C-Ranger 25, and one has to think a bit.

Exactly. Everytime I read this stuff I want to run out and hug my boat. So far, it's been pretty darn good. The only real problem I have with my 22 is I haven't been able to use it much the past year. Got to change that . . .
 
Knock on wood, the overall quality of our CD25 is quite good, and the trip to Alaska was ample opportunity to verify that. Not one system failure of any kind, no water in the cockpit, no Wallas problems...but in the back of my mind, the biggest problem I see with the switch from factory sales and service to all dealer sales and service could be attitude when a problem does occur. C-Dory to date has pretty much adopted the Nordstrom model - "the customer is always right." Dealer attitudes will vary of course, but a lot of dealers (you only have to think about your experiences with car dealers to know this is true) is "the customer is wrong until he proves he is right." Sometimes we are wrong, but doggone it, it is still the Nordstrom model on which C-Dory's reputation is founded, and I wondered if they are not now putting that at risk.
 
Folks:

This thread seems to be focusing on the Tomcat- which is not surprising, since it the “new” boat.

Now, if the hull numbers are to be believed, there are about 50 Tomcat 255s out there. There are perhaps five owners active on this list. We have no data on 45 boats, so the information we have is purely anecdotal.

From our own experience, I can tell you that the factory is listening and learning. Many of the factory issues on Bob Austin’s boat (# 39) had been taken care of on our boat, # 48.

Having said that, I agree with Pat that dealer attitude is going to be pivotal. We bought our boat from the same dealership as Bob. They had learned from Bob’s experience and did a good job on ours. We also had an extended sea trial with the dealer and mechanic aboard, and the mechanic spent an hour with us going over routine maintenance issues. I believe that this is the minimum anyone should expect from the dealer.

So far, in 20 hours of running including 150 high-speed miles, we have replaced one light bulb and three fuses- 2 for electronic components installed by the dealer (should have probably used 5 amp fuses instead of 3 amp), and one for a fish box macerator pump installed by the factory. That is it. I hope our good luck continues.

The only big challenge that we have not faced so far is firing up the Wallas- I am waiting to get my hands on some Klean Heat.

Do we have a wish list- sure, but these are design issues, not QC issues. We wish the fish box lids did not let water in so easily. We wish the passenger had an independent wiper control, and also a dashboard mounted bar to hold on to (this thing goes fast). We wish- and this is a big one- that the motors were mounted so that we can cross the stern lines. The boat is in a slip with riser bars, and crossed stern lines keep getting tangled up in the motors and the transom fittings.

But, are we enjoying the boat- yes! Have the hassles overwhelmed the fun- not at all!
 
I bought a CD25 this summer and would like to chime in on the quality issue.

I have been very satisfied with the quality of the boat; and the after-sale response I've received from both my dealer and the factory. The only problems I have experienced (after approx 60 hrs on the engine) have been minor but when they've come up, the dealer and factory have worked together to solve them.

I would not hesitate to buy another boat from these guys.
 
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