C-dory help in purchasing.

It's been here before and will be back again and there will always be both sides. :) When we were ready to purchase our boat, we had decided on the size (22), the model (Cruiser) and we had a color preference, but were still up in the air about which way to go, Single or Twin :? . We found what we were looking for and it came with Twin 40's and to this day I think it was because someone upstairs was looking out for us :wink: . We are primarily cruisers. We occasionally go across the strait, and we are thankful every time for the redundancy of the twins. Think we will keep 'em :thup :thup
Good ;uck with your choice, whichever, and remember
A ship is safe in the harbor, but it wasn't built for that.
Harvey
Sleepy C :moon
 
old dog, new tricks!
i've primarily operated my 22' twin 40hp honda's, as if it were a single engine vessel. just for the fun of it, i decided to operate one engine against the other for docking. worked just fine, i enjoyed working less and having the engines labor, rather than me. weather conditions were, moderate wind and little to no current. still believe it's important to be knowledgeable in both operations.
always something to keep us amused!
on a different note, i had my 2352 trophy for sale at the local brokerage, didn't get the offer i wanted so decided to keep it and trailer it back to lake cumberland, 170 miles from my location. weight was right at 5000lbs with 100 gallons of fuel aboard.
then i trailered the c-dory, what a pleasure! several times i had to check the rearview mirror to make sure it was still attached to the f-350.
best regards
pat
 
Much has been written abt the single verses twin question, but either way you decide you will have to live and adapt to the answer. What price do you want to put on the safety & confidence factor will be offset by the 'cool' look.

As to the question of a dealer not rigging as to you wishes- I faced that same non-issue. Here in the lower Ches. Bay area there a lot of good experienced marine dealers who would love to get your $$$ for a twin purchase. This is what I did for my CD25. I have a dealer who I can walk to and deal with any rigging issues and for on going support. The CD dealer handled, very nicely, the special item of a/c and forwarding the boat to my rigger after it was install. [I would go back to Cutter for my next purchase and recommend them, also.]

The CD-22 and CD-25 share a short coming in twin setups. There is not a manufacturer who makes a counter-rotating OB of less than 135hp. This becomes an issue ONLY if you push the hull at high [WOT] speed. I can turn sharply to port, but will have a tendency to 'skip' across the water when turned to starboard as the 4 blade props tend to lift my stern out of the water. At slow docking speed, there is mainly the sail area to fight, but still the rotation is a minor factor [ the main reason I chose 4 blade SS props-docking].

After you make your purchase .. practice .. practice .. practice. This will keep the docking scares to a minimun level and watchers un-entertained.

Good luck on your decision and follow your heart.
 
This raises 2 questions, especially given the absence of counter-rotating. For a 22 Angler or Cruiser

1) can you do the twin engine docking (ability to spin on almost no radius) with a single and a kicker??

2) Does running 1 of the 2 twins at displacement speed (or trolling) come close to the MPG of a kicker doing the same?? i.e. a single 40hp or 50hp at 5 mph vs a 15hp at 5 mph. As mainly a fisherman, I anticipate most hours trolling.

Thanks!!
 
RJD Wannabe":1jfc5vtn said:
This raises 2 questions, especially given the absence of counter-rotating. For a 22 Angler or Cruiser

1) can you do the twin engine docking (ability to spin on almost no radius) with a single and a kicker??

Using just the main engine, no. Using the main engine and kicker, yes, at least pretty much so, but you'll have to have dual controls that are at one helm station. One engine will be much stronger than the other, so it will require some getting used to to throttle up the kicker to more or less equal or balance out the main engine.


2) Does running 1 of the 2 twins at displacement speed (or trolling) come close to the MPG of a kicker doing the same?? i.e. a single 40hp or 50hp at 5 mph vs a 15hp at 5 mph. As mainly a fisherman, I anticipate most hours trolling.

When running one engine of a pair of twins, you are operating a larger displacement engine than a kicker. The same amount of energy will be required to propel the boat at trolling speeds from either engine. The difference is the waste incurred by the larger engine's displacement and friction. Exact figures would have to be given with those with either set ups, but as a guess I'd think the kicker would use about 1/2-2/3'rds the fuel of the main. It also depends on which type of kicker you have : 2/4 cycle, 6-15 hp, and the trolling speed.

Thanks!!
Click to expand...

HTH

Joe.
 
The maneuverability of a twin engine boat--both outboard and inboard is enhanced by the counter rotation. The other feature of a twin engine counter rotation engine boat, is that it can be walked sideways. The prop walk in reverse is a characteristic which allows both the enhanced turning and walking. Props which which are both the same rotation (transmissions sometimes are used to reverse the rotation), will walk the stern only one way.
 
Bob, I use the twin engines to great effect for "spinning on a dime" as it were, but how does one use them to walk the boat sideways?

Thanks,
Warren
 
Warren,
First determine which engine walks the boat to port and stb with the reverse prop walk (I find that the inboards with bigger props seem to do this better). Work the engine which walks to the stb to swing stern to stb, have the engines turned so that the other engine will push the bow to stb--thus shift, walk, foreward to stb, shift walk reverse...

When I had single screw boats, I prefered to dock, so that my prop walk would pull the boat away from the dock, since it was harder to get off, than to dock, when you have no way on.

The deep hulls with hard chines do act as "keels" and damp some of this walk. We have been successful in doing this in calm water. We try it in the bay, with a couple of fenders which we work toward.

practice and practice. are the most help.
 
C-Gypsy was purchased with a Honda 90 and a Honda 9.9 kicker. I wanted to be able to use her in the state parks in Pennsylvania. Some have a 10 horsepower limit.

I have never regretted my decision. The 90 has enough performance to make me smile. The 9.9 allows me to fish in the state parks, and that makes my dad smile.

As Mike aboard Levity mentioned, towing services are available anywhere on the bay.

Reckon if I were heading "out to sea" I would take my sailboat anyway.

Either way you go will be the right way. Each has its own advantage. Bottom line is you are buying a C-Dory and they are incredible little vessels!

Al

C-Gypsy
 
Warren,

What Dr. Bob is talking about is that last surge of the engines which nudges your stern toward the dock at the last minute. Prop walk - the sideways action when a short reverse surge is put on - is a gentle, subtle, somewhat weak, but effective side motion if you have little headway and conditions are somewhat calm.

There are other ways of walking the boat sideways. I just used one last weekend when approaching a tiny gas dock. Basically, you are approaching the dock slowly with a headwind about parallel to the dock. You set your bow off the wind toward the dock (say, for example, to port) just enough that the wind is starting to blow the bow off to port. Your engines are directed forward if mild to moderate winds. You gently slip the port engine into gear at idle , which moves the stern to port, offsetting the bow's movement to port. In and out of gear if light winds. The net effect is that your entire boat will move to port. It'll make you look like a magician. The ppl on the gas dock could not believe you can make a boat that big go sideways.

As winds and seas elevate, longer periods in gear, slightly higher revs, and some steering toward the stern desired position are needed.

Practice out in more open water. Head into the wind, like a sailboat luffing. Let the bow fall off. As the bow swings off the wind, gently move the stern to match the falloff, leaving the bow's falling off action in tact. If you over correct the sideways movement will stop.

One of the key things to practice in open water is holding the boat still in all conditions. Once you can hold it still, then letting the bow fall off the wind will allow you to start your sideways manuevering by almost matching the bow falloff with stern movement the same direction.

Another thing to be aware of is that, if the wind is high enough that your boat begins to drift backwards, then all the steering will be backwards when drifting. You can go sideways and forward, just sideways, or sideways and backward. Practice sensing the difference. It will help you really get the feel of your boat.

Have fun,

John
 
Well, in answer to some PMs on the topic:

Prop Walk is the sideways force a propeller exhibits - somewhat as if it were a "wheel" - tending to move the stern to the side.

At most speeds the Prop Walk effect is small compared to the forward thrust and movement. However, if one has the boat drifting forward, and engages the prop in reverse with a surge, there is a brief time period in which the forward movement and the reverse surge cancel out fore/aft movement and the hull will "jump" toward the side that the prop (wheel) is turning toward.

This comes in handy as the last, final action prior to stepping off the boat with a line in hand. It is not effectively repeatable once the forward drifting has stopped since it is that forward motion that offsets the reverse thrust, leaving the sideways prop walk as the only active force.

It will only move the stern a foot or two, and is a very brief sideways motion. You can do it while drifting backward by engaging engine forward, but the hull has less resistance going forward so the side effect will be less.

John
 
THere is a THIRD way to move a boat sideways, perhaps peculiar to the TomCat setup with the odd steering equilizer which has the engines turned at different directions in a sharp turn.

Basically, I've had some, albeit erratic so far, success in sideways movement by using one engine forward and another in reverse, sliding in and out of neutral to simulate the same movement as explained in the "Bow blowing off the wind" description of sideways movement.

I have not had enough time in different conditons to reliably offer detailed instructions, but this is the way I have to approach our pump out station which is located on an upwind float.

so, you guys go out and try that too! Let us know how it goes,

John
 
the prop walk in reverse occurs before the boat gathers significant sternway. The more dense water deeper allows a stronger "bite" than the less dense water on the surface, thus a torque force pushing the stern in the direction which the bottom of the prop blade is turning in reverse. In inboards this can be quite significant force, and will pull the stern of the boat significantly sideways. Even with an single outboard boat like the C Dory and the Tom Cat there is some of this effect. In a normal twin screw boat the engine opposite the dock will walk the boat toward the dock--if the engines are set up opposite in a cat, then it will be the engine nearest the dock which will walk the boat toward the dock.

These maneuvers are done with just the shifters and the boat set an appropiate idle speed with inboard boats--with outboards, and single lever controls, the shifter usually just is dropped in and out of gear, with no throttle use.
 
It's interesting you guys have found noticeable walk with outboards. I have found prop walk to be almost negligible with outboards and I/O's. With inboards the affect is really something. You can cruise parallel to a dock (3 feet away), drop it in reverse, and take your hands off the wheel. To be really smooth you turn the wheel fully toward the dock as your engaging reverse engines for a perfectly parallel walk to the dock.

With outboards and I/O's I have found I can only walk with deliberate steering. As I approach a dock on my right side for example, I come in at a slight angle (bow closer than stern). As soon as I drop it in reverse I turn fully into the dock (wheel full right). If your walk toward the dock is too fast you turn the wheel hard over the opposite direction (to the left in this example, away from dock) to null the motion.

Current, wind, and available "real estate" will require slight changes. It feels great when everything works out for a perfect "landing"!
 
Matt,
I noted that I find much more with the inboards--and attributed this to the larger wheels. We spent several hours working with the Tom Cat specifically and it is definately there.
 
I'm sure you're right, I just have not been on a vessel yet where the walk was noticeable with an outboard or I/O. I will be test driving the Tomcat and C-25 this weekend and will finally get a chance to get some first hand experience.

One of the vessels I operate is a 32', 6 ton twin outboard flat bottom aluminum. There is almost zero prop walk and both props are right handed. I need to turn the helm hard over to walk, even with a heavy stern load.

I look forward to the test drive this weekend.
 
Ya'll are over my head with this talk and doings... I have a c d l driving premit and can back a tractor and trailer down an alley way but can not get the hang of docking....I had rather run out of gas than try to dock in a tight marina..One day i left my house in Ocean Isle Beach ,nc. and wound up in the bahamas before i found an easy slip to get for gas...If anybody ever has an on water work shop for docking just give me a call..I want to attend....Keep your life jacket on! tucker
 
Tucker, I can appreciate you situation. I, too, have a CD25 with twin 90s.

I am forced to dock cross tidal current each time I return to my marina. Sometime I have supporting winds, other time opposite winds coming down the 'shoot'. The ideal and easiests time is when the wind and tide are in the same direction.

The 'secret', as the locals say is to back into the current so the stern will toward the bulkhead for retrieval at the finger dock. All speeds are taken at idle. My approach is abt 1/2 boat length from the dock end. The outboard engine, from the dock, will be used to pull me around the end of the dock as I use the inboard eng. to control the rate of turn in the current where I will allow the current to slide me in place beside the dock.

Here is where you have to practice a lot to know how the wind will affect the bow. The engines will follow the current. I generally wait till I have the dock abt midship before the turn is committed. This will give me a 'go-around'/abort position should it be needed.

By practicing this approach you can 'walk' the boat into by working all the forces together. Just use the minimum amount of power to control the situation so you have some reaction space and time for corrections needed.

The above technique will apply to a forward motion approach as well.

Good luck on your landings. Man, if you can back a rig down an alley, you can do this . I must admit I did add a backup camera to help with the blind spot area behind the head and I use it just like you use your mirrors. It has saved my buns several times, but that is another story.
 
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