brats , who makes this boat?

There will be a bunch of 25 Cruisers at the Friday Harbor gathering. As Tom mentioned earlier, you could probably make it sleepable (is that a word?) for 4, but it would never be our choice. These boats are really ideal for a couple, or perhaps 3. By the time you get to 4 onboard for more than a day cruise, you would constantly be doing "the shuffle," figuring out where and how to seat people, making the dinette into a small berth, trying to cook... :?

We have traveled with friends with a TomCat; the cabin size is very similar, with a larger rectangle berth and more storage.

Good luck with your search.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
From the Tugnuts web site:

Beautifully maintained. Yanmar 110 HP. 400 hours. Garmin electronics (Radar, plotter, GPS, depth finder). VHF radio. Bow and stern thrusters. Canvas and window covers. 7-ft Livingston dinghy. Galvanized 2-axle trailer. Viewable at Des Moines Marina, WA, at J Dock. (J4) $105,000. Bill and Patti Linscott, 206-212-0568 or pattilinscott@yahoo.com
 
Hi. One thing about looking too long, it does get confusing! I have found it beneficial to list my mission parameters and then pick a c dory that fits. One thing about sleeping 4 to 6, people often ask "how many does she sleep?". One can sleep anywhere. The problem comes in as to how to get everyone going in the morning. Do you have 6 people in your family who will be aboard every trip? Or are you thinking friends coming along? I myself don't want friends along overnight as I don't want to be the host 24/7 as well as skipper. As well if the friends are not mariners they may not understand the reason for getting up in the middle of the night to get out of an anchorage that was fine at bedtime and now at 0400 has become dangerous in a gale. I want to run my ship not look after non mariners. I like friends aboard for a nice calm harbor cruise then dinner and drop 'em off so they can go home. Non mariners seldom get it about boats. If you have 3 or 4 kids aboard do like Bill and El. Put them ashore at night to camp. I would recommend jotting down your desired mission, day fishing, harbor cruise, overnights, or long term with just your family in mind. Occasional friends may be aboard, but the first time they get seasick or you take green water over the windows they may decide to go golfing next time. I only have a couple friends I would spend a hundred k to accommodate! My 22 is perfect to live 2 sleep 2 Harbour cruise 4 or happy hour 6 if 5 are bikini models. I have towed my 22 over 10,000 miles including downtown Reno, Flagstaff and Sedona. I would go not much bigger. Maybe 25. Tops. It gets tight in some towns. Best of luck. George
 
Welcome aboard Captain Starbucks,

Ok, here goes. If what you want seems not to exist it's because it either shouldn't or can't. Any boat designer or builder is going to build what the customer base will purchase, niches in the marketplace are soon filled as they're discovered. I encourage folks to ask why they can't find what they want and identify the parameters that seem to be the sticking points.

There are three main design aspects to any boat: comfort, speed, and economy. You can have any two...but not all three.

Treat finding a boat like choosing a vehicle. I don't know of anyone (personally) that walks into an automall and tells the salesperson "I want to buy a car" with no idea of what they think they want. At the very least define the genre; in the auto world that would be like an SUV, or crossover, or minivan, or sedan, or sportscar, or pickup, etc. Boats come in as many or more genres and without identifying what you want it makes it really confusing.

The first two parameters that are usually defined when designing a new boat are length and speed. Length because it usually sets up where the boat will fit in the market, whether or not it can be towed, and about how many folks can be aboard. Speed because it's the primary parameter that the designer has to deal with; the shape of the hull has everything to do with the target speed and very little else (we're talking about powerboats here, sailboats are different). That's the most important thing to remember when looking at an unfamiliar boat...the designer had some specific speed in mind when drawing the hull lines and to ignore that is to end up with a boat that doesn't do what you want it to. Find out what that speed is if you don't already know.

Speed costs. Period. There's no way to go fast on the water cheaply (leaving out small hydros and such). You must identify the cruising speed that you find acceptable whether that's 6 knots, 15 knots, or 20 knots (anything higher than that is an fairy tale (for cruising) unless on flat water). Remember that water is very dense and power required rises (with speed) in an exponential manner. Choosing your specific cruising speed rules out a lot of boats right up front. Be honest about this. You may want to cruise at 20 knots but if that boat is not small and light (CD22 or the like) it's going to require a lot of expensive fuel to cruise at that speed. There's about 1/3 difference in fuel burn between a modern diesel and a modern EFI outboard (horsepower for horsepower). That 1/3 difference will rarely (if ever) pay for the difference in costs (upfront and maintenance). There are lots of really good reasons to have a diesel powered boat but unless you're choosing a displacement speed cruiser or operating several hundred hours a year fuel savings is not one of them.

A deep-v hull (any deep-v hull and I'm not picking on them) is, by definition, a performance hull intended for high speed operation (that's why they were developed in the first place). Unless that's what you're after don't choose one. Many folks do (because they don't understand the choice) and get frustrated when they can't slow down to more cruiserly speeds or have to use more fuel than they like. Not everyone though, for some folks it's the perfect choice but in the cruiser world (as opposed to fishing world) it generally isn't the best all-around choice. Just as a Corvette is typically not as good a choice for most of us as a standard sedan, crossover, SUV, or whatever. It's a fun car to drive but it doesn't (for most) make the ideal choice for an everyday vehicle.

If you're on a boat under 30-feet (my arbitrary threshold) you're camping. The smallest boat I'd choose to accommodate two couples on a multi-day cruise is a 32 Bayliner. Anything smaller requires a high degree of compatiblity. Cruising with family (usually) is easier. Trying to accommodate two couples on a 25 to 28 footer is very difficult since there will never (usually) be two fixed berths so someone is going to sleep on an uncomfortable convertible dinette or setee. And there will be one small head compartment.

I have a Tolly 26 (which is really 26' 11") and in my opinion it's the Gold Standard of cruising boats of that length (the Commander 26 is also right up there). It has a huge v-berth, a large galley, a large (read usuable) head compartment, a large dinette, a huge cockpit, and a flying bridge. It's great with 6 to 8 aboard for the day but it's best at night for a couple. It makes a lousy trailer boat since it's 10' wide and weighs about 9,500 to 10,000 pounds (without trailer). The one I have is powered with an EFI 350hp gas inboard (fairly new with less than 200 hours on it). It is not an economical boat to run over displacement speeds. At "cruise speed" (15 knots) I get 1.6 nmpg. Ouch! That's at least $40/hr at the moment so it stays at 6.5 knots most of the time (which makes the 350hp engine pretty useless; 50hp would do it).

I bought it at the time because it seemed like a good combination of compromises. Reasonable speed, great comfort, and reasonable economy (including purchase price). The ecomony part has changed because of rising fuel prices and that's changed the balance of factors. The Economy parameter has changed so much that it now seems (to me) out of balance with the Speed and Comfort paramenters so it no longer fits my needs as it once did. Things do change.

Smaller is better. The use of a boat is usually inversely proportional to its length. Choose the smallest boat that will meet your needs rather than the largest you can afford to purchase. There are always exceptions but they're just that...exceptions. Even with my experience with boats (towing them, handling them, launching and retrieving them) I'd use a smaller boat far more often than my Tolly 26, especially if I was trailering.

I owned a semi and trucked for a number of years so I'm pretty comfortable with large rigs. I just towed a Rosborough RF246 (27.5' long) 4,000 miles from Halifax back to WA and it's 8.5' wide. I would not have liked towing the Tolly 26 at 10' wide a lot of the places (like I-90 in Chicago) I travelled with the RF246. Personally the widest I would go for for relatively routine towing would be 9'; that's just 3" per side wider than an 8.5' boat and while it makes a difference it's not too bad, more than that is a pain.

All of this is supposed to be encouragement, please don't take anything as being negative or unsupportive of your search.

Sit down with a pad of paper and really hammer out the things you need. Put "must haves" in one column, "would like to haves" in another column, "would rather not haves" in another, and then "won't haves" in the last column. Get it in writing. Then you can start to balance things out. Having a 27' boat that sleeps 6 and gets 10 nmpg at 25 knots might look nice on a wishlist but it isn't going to happen in reality and if you have your list you make you'll soon see what really might work for you. Trying to keep it all in your head and remember all the boats and then balance it all out is just confusing to the nth degree. And if it's in your head, and not on paper, your emotional brain has easier access to it and can "talk" you into things that might not be the best (been there, done that).

Finally, choose a boat for 90% to 95% of your use. I see folks make this mistake all the time. They'll look at a boat that meets 95% of their needs and desires then decide they need something else to, say, accommodate 4 people instead of 2. When I ask how often that happens they may say someting like once or twice a year when the kids and grandkids visit. Really? You're going buy the larger, more expensive and expensive to run, and more difficult to tow boat that requires a larger tow vehicle so you can accommodate more people twice a year? I suggest to them that they buy the boat that really fits 95% of their needs and then charter a larger boat twice a year when family visits. And they can get a nice 42-footer with two staterooms and two heads and everyone enjoys it more. It's actually the less expenisve option in the long run.

All the best,

Les
 
Since you mentioned Trawlerfest, you will be able to see the entire fleet of Ranger Tugs from 25 to 31' all "trailerable" They will also have the Cutwaters in 26 and 28' models both with 8 1/2' beam. Then the field open up to much bigger boats. You can hook up with Jeff at Ranger tugs and they will walk you through all the models, after that you will be more confused than ever. The wife and I are still struggling Tug vs Cutwater, oh the choices.
 
Les-

Great Post!!!

Should be REQUIRED READING for all prospective boat owners!

Someone should develop a checklist of desired qualities for the desired boat with which to rate prospective models against.

Thanks!

(AND say "HELLO!" to Dusty for me!)

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Sea Wolf":1ji12fs6 said:
Les-

Great Post!!!

Should be REQUIRED READING for all prospective boat owners!

Someone should develop a checklist of desired qualities for the desired boat with which to rate prospective models against.

Thanks!

(AND say "HELLO!" to Dusty for me!)

Joe. :teeth :thup

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the kind words! :thup

I'll tell Dusty "hi" for you for sure.

Les
 
I agree, great post.

This should be a "sticky" for folks trying to narrow the search.

Any boat is going to be a trade-off, compromise.
 
How regularly do you plan on sleeping 4, 5, or 6 on the boat? If I were regularly sleeping that many, a Grand Banks 36 (or similar) would probably be about the minimum size I would go.

Here's another alternative. I've got three brothers, making for a family of six. We liked spending time in the San Juans boat camping from our Whaler, but needed more comfort and space. We looked at boats that would accommodate a family of our size and didn't find anything that made sense. Realistically for us to be comfortable we were looking at a boat in the mid 40 foot range. Newer models were expensive, and older models looked like they'd need significant work and maintenance. Since we were all busy with other aspects of our lives and basically wanted a "turn key" solution (show up Friday with food and go), the expense of a 40+ footer would have been significant.

Instead we found a small cabin in the San Juans. The price of the cabin was similar to the boats we'd been looking at, but ownership costs were much lower and real estate has traditionally been a much better investment than boats. The community has a full time caretaker to take care of any problems before we get there or after we leave and there is lots more space in our small cabin than any of the boats we were looking at. And people can freely wander about if they need some space.

The C-Dory is great for getting to and from the cabin, exploring and sight seeing during the day, and allowing 1-3 people in the family to go on extended overnight trips.

So if you really need to regularly sleep 4-6 people, I think you'll probably need to go way bigger than you expected, put some people in tents on shore, rent cabins/condos when needed, or buy a cabin and use a smaller boat for day trips.
 
I will chime in here about boat camping. We, susan and I, did a lot of boat camping in the Sierras. It had a lot of benefits. At the time our boat was a open 16ft starcraft. it was great for lake fishing but not for sleeping on. We would set up a tent camp on the back of a lake and that freed up the boat for me to fish in all day with out dragging the wife and kids unless they wanted to go. Any group of 4 to 6 people are not going to want to do the same thing all day or even at the same time. In the size of boat you are talking about its impossible for more then one activity to take place at a time. A larger boat, over 30 ft, has the room to allow people to get away from others and even carry other water craft like small skiffs that can be used to fish , crab, sight see. My parents boat is 44ft and has a 12 whaler on it. If I was going to spend time with them on the boat I would also throw in a part of kayaks next to their bikes.

I think you would be better off with limiting yourself to a smaller boat just for two, a larger slower boat that you can not trailer or the boat camping/ cabin idea. It just depends whats more important to you. As I tell my wife I dont want a larger boat as you can not fish out of them very well or I want a very large boat that I can carry a 16ft something to fish out of.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything Les said, but would suggest another consideration:

If the boat is heavy, diesel is much more economical to run, which makes a big difference if you're going to cover a lot of miles (as we do). Especially if you're going to keep the boat for a good long time (as we do) the fuel numbers add up. And for the same boat with the same fuel capacity, diesel gives you significantly greater range, which is important to us, as we cruise the remotest parts of BC and SE Alaska.

If these are important goals to you, and you can find a used diesel boat in good condition, the price penalty won't necessarily be as great as if you were comparing gas vs diesel new.

Just for grins, here's a diesel SeaSport 27 Pilot on Lopez Island:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/ ... 17904&url=


So - decide: where you are going to be cruising, and how far and for how long. How many you need to sleep (and how big are they), realistically, most of the time. How fast do you need (and can afford) to cruise. For how many years, on this boat?

What you choose to meet these needs may be significantly constrained by your budget, and if a lot of miles are involved the operating budget (not just the purchase price) will be a significant part of the picture. Even more so if you must cruise fast with a lot of weight.

Our heavy but towable (with a big diesel truck) 26-foot deep-V has 30,000 nautical miles in remote country under its belt. We like the ride and comfort of its weight, hull design, and equipment. We've made the tradeoff (doable as we are retired) of traveling slow most of the time, because the range is so much greater and the cost is so much lower. But we can cruise at 18 knots if we need to.

We wouldn't want to tow anything much heavier, but still we sleep only three adults. Could do four if two were not very big kids.

Everything about this choice is tradeoffs.
 
Fully agree with "get a boat that fits YOUR needs" and for the times when there are going to be 4 or 6 on board. Charter and let them share part of the cost in exchange for having more of their own privacy and comfort.

The C-Dory 22 or 25 is basically a couples boat, and the 25 will work with some kids. Yes there are some that have done more with less, but it does depend on how YOU want to live. If the minimalist in you is raging than the 22 will work for 4, if they are minimalists too. If not, it is going to be tough.

It is one thing to be good friends. It is another to spend a week with 4 folks who are never out of arms reach from anyone else, day or night. If you are all that close, then one suitcase should do it for the whole bunch, and that will make the packing easier. Choosing who gets the fresh underwear is all up to the captain, right? Good luck on that one.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
that 27 seassport has had 2.5 ft added to it and re powered. Thats a really cool boat. We really looked for one before finding our 27 c-dory. I liked the lay out and the pilot house design. Lots of room in the SS 27.
With this one having a extra 2.5 ft in the deck it will be even better to fish out of .

They ride nice in the two foot chop that makes a c-dory slow down. Lots of storage both inside and on top of the boat. I would go check that boat out.
 
Another boat that matches most of the criteria is the aluminum North Westerner 2510 which will also be on display at Trawler Fest in Anacortes.
For-Sale-10.gif
 
Nice looking boat. Are you the designer or builder? I'm not in the market (C-Dory suits me now ), but I'm curious what the price range is (did a quick search and couldn't find that info).
 
We are the designer and builder (Hybrid Boat Company LLC). The base price is $119,995 plus tax, delivery, etc. which includes the standard features as listed on the website (including the motor and trailer).
 
2012 Ranger 25SC.

Most people like to hear follow up about interesting topics and I know this one comes up quite a bit on this site. I had strongly considered many, many boats. The list is long, but here it is: Everything C-dory including Tomcat which as a fisherman in Puget Sound, was really MY first realistic choice. Seasport, Osprey, Skagit, Kingfisher, Wooldridge Pilothouse, Cutwater, older CHB 35's, Bayliner 3388, and obviously the Ranger offerings. Les said you can only have two of three things and I found this is always true with one exception. Aspen C-90. You can go fast, get great economy and comfort, styling, stability, and trailerability (I have a diesel and for $120 per year in Washington, I can be in fat-city with all the permits I need). But then there's the price tag. I thought we were going to be able to pull it off, but our budget fell to half the C-90 price.

I am happy to say, I found an incredibly good deal on a Ranger 2012 25SC with a 180 HP inboard Yanmar diesel that is very slightly used with some great upgrades. Les, you offered some great information, I honestly say I took your comment "smaller is better" to heart. We almost pulled the trigger on a really well equipped 3388 that in reality IS a true sportfishing design. It just didnt' feel right. I couldn't put my finger on it, but basically I wouldn't have been proud or excited to own it. The Ranger is going to be a great boat for us, you can stuff 5-6 on board to sleep if you have to. Still get great economy and go "fast" if you need, moorage is much less expensive and much more available, I can leave it on the trailer to save moorage if I have to, it's trailerable, and my wife can check the "cute" box. Oh, and it's still pretty fishy. And, I can pull it out of the water myself and do all of my own maintenance in my own driveway without having to worry about King county.

For us, it's going to work well. I really appreciate all of the support and tips. Great site here and I'll always be a closet C-Brat.

Rob from Seattle/Shilshole in the little blue tug.
 
Captain Starbucks-

Congratulations! Enjoy your new boat! Tight Lines!

I just had to look up the two finalists for your new boat to see what they were about, so thought I'd post a link or two here for others to enjoy:

Bayliner 3388

Aspen C 90

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
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