Ben Toland's Next Boat

Sweet.
Have truly enjoyed my Rosborough RF-246 wheelhouse. But, this 20' boat has great potential. I love the removeable bulkhead idea. Will be interesting to see that. I too was invited by Ben & Dave (hummm sounds like an icecream) :thup to take a look at what they had back at and during our C-Brat gathering at the Hawthorne this year. Great start is what I saw and it was truly great to spend some time with a Toland and toss out some things I like and dislike about many of the pilot house type boats. My time with Dave has always been a great time. I loved the time at a gathering last year when myself and several other C-Brats got on Dave's "stretch" 16-18 C-Dory.

We use the outside of the boat as much as the inside down here. I would like to see for foredeck even more square and be able to sit a couple of folks out front to watch a nice sunrise/sunset. I also love the full hull power extension on my Rosborough......it adds much, much room aft in the cockpit.... I see no real reason it may not make a viable option on this boat. Just think being able to lean on the transom that is basically flat other than a gunnel? All the motor mech's out back...out of your way and not coming in to take up cockpit space. It also adds much flotation for lift if the aft fuel tank is full....or coolers, fishing/camping gear...or just chairs of folks are gathered about the cockpit.

Can not wait to see more soon. Thanks Dave & Ben.

Byrdman
 
I think this boat will be a hit. Very classy lines and a very well thought out interior. My ONLY complaints would be why not max out the beam to the allowable towing limits and use the extra space for wider gunnels along the sides of the cabin? IMHO One of the biggest drawbacks to the small pilot house style boats is front deck access.

As for the Offshore Bracket, well to me as a fisherman they don't save any space! Here is why. If I have a hot fish on that decides to go towards that prop, having the engine on an offshore bracket makes it so that I either need to have a VERY long rod, or someone who is very good at boat control keeping the fish off to the side of the boat. With a stepped transom like on the old Classics where you are able to get beside the motor it is fairly easy to keep a fish from getting into the motor. So to me, saying an offshore bracket gives you more room is wrong, rather you are losing 2'-3' of length on the boat!
 
Gary, you hit it on the head for us fishermen. The "stepped" transom that allows access to the back of the boat on either side of the engine would be better, otherwise the back 2' of the boat are pretty much wasted space.
 
Does this boat allow for dual main engines? Or a kicker?

I can't imagine not (at least the kicker), but it looks like a narrow engine well to me, similar to the early CD-22's.

iggy
 
iggy":3slxjooa said:
Does this boat allow for dual main engines? Or a kicker?
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Single + kicker only, unless they've made a design change since I was there.

I believe the decision had to do with storage - there's more possible, with the narrower motor well.
 
Joe (Sea Wolf) - your post "Just a thought or two:" is right on, however I believe the boat will compete head on with boats in the 19 to 22 foot range.

Your other thought about adding a smokestack - I think if I told Ben we were going to change the design again, he would shoot me.

This boat is designed to be compact and we wanted every thing to look proportional so making it wider, longer or higher would ruin the lines.

iggy - Bill is right. WE felt it more important to offer more stowage and the option of additional fuel tanks than a larger engine well for dual outboards.

Milehog - I have a hull cutaway drawing of the C-Dory 22 and will be adding it to our comparison page with the Marinaut hull cutaway. You are right about the berth. It is not real wide, but it is longer and wider than a twin bed. The boat is just over 20 feet so it is hard to put a v-berth in without reducing the cabin or cockpit. We are looking at way of maybe offering a v-berth as an option.

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Dave dlt.gif
 
A further question about the transom layout - this is not a criticism; at this point I think I'd prefer a large single and kicker anyway -- Where is the kicker designed to be mounted? Would this be on a bracket off the rear of the transom?

I do like the idea of more storage in the rear, and in particular, moving the weight of the tanks forward to better balance the fore-and-aft trim with the weight of a larger engine.

iggy
 
iggy – we don't take comments, questions or suggestions as criticism. We look at them as possible ways of improving our design and welcome them.

The kicker will be mounted on a bracket on the rear of the transom.
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Dave dlt.gif
 
It has been a long day. One more post before I go to bed.

Yesterday Ben came into my office with his computer under his arm. It had crashed and he is computer challenged. I set up an office computer for him to read his email and the feedback from the tolandmarine web site. He was very happy with the response and came back in late this afternoon to answer all of them. Three hours later he had done half. He hopes to finish tomorrow. I just don't want anyone that has sent feedback or emailed us to think we will not answer.

I will try and have a computer for him to take home this weekend so the responses will be a little quicker.

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Dave dlt.gif
 
Dave-

Your handiwork in developing the Marinaut site features comparing the line drawings, floor plans, color choices, canvas options and several other features is excellent!

Must be really exciting to be a part of this new venture!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Excuse me for bringing up an idea that we discussed a year or two ago, but sometimes the connections are so good that it's hard not to point them out.

We were talking about boat design and designers, and I mentioned that I had heard from an artist friend of mine that architects (and naval architects, I'd add) are not equally talented.

All have gone through formal training and can engineer a safe product (with the Titantic and a few other exceptions), but only a few are artistically talented enough to produce a great looking boat.

The result is that we have scads of mediocre looking buildings and boats that look "OK' enough to pass casual inspection, but only a few really great looking classic ones that will be remembered over time.

The guess was that about 10% of the designers were artistically talented, with only 1-2% or less really capable of producing at top flight product. The other 90% are simply product engineers following conventional guidelines to get another cookie cutter product ready for sale.

Thus it is that the Frank Lloyd Wrights, Buckminister Fullers, and I.M. Peis are rare birds with gifted creations to share with the world, but the guy who designs your typical local bank building is just another unknown.

I bring this up at this time because i believe that Ben Toland is one of those designers who can create a floating masterpiece, not just another boat to throw wads of $100 bills into.

The CD-22 Cruiser, the Cape Cruisers, and now the Marinaut 20.5 are products of his exceptional talent, not something that could have come from a Bayliner design group, or even the average small volume boat manufacturer.

Hats off to you, Ben, on another first class creation!

I'm also very hopeful that Dave's talents can be of great assistance in your design and building efforts, and that his wealth of under utilized skills can be of great help in getting the overall job done!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I like everything about it, except maybe the name. Why not call it 'Toland", like the 18 footer I've coveted for so long? Just a question. I know I'd be happy with that boat no matter what its name was.
 
dotnmarty":3th0w9t8 said:
I like everything about it, except maybe the name. Why not call it 'Toland", like the 18 footer I've coveted for so long? Just a question. I know I'd be happy with that boat no matter what its name was.
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As usual, Marty presents an interesting question. In marketing, you promote the most important features... and in this case, the fact that Mr. Toland is one of the principals is a definite feature. There was obviously a close enough connection with the Cape Cruiser and C-Dory that there was a problem... Mr. Toland may or may not be legally allowed to promote as the designer of the C-Dory, but he can certainly use his own name. And anyone who has been around the block a time or two can appreciate the value of that name recognition.

Good luck with this... um... venture, Ben and Dave.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Design is a very subjective thing, and beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder.

With that being said, I am sure the C-Dory Venture 29 would have been a better designed boat if Ben produced the design!

Best regards,
Leo
 
I'm sorry, the Venture 29 is an abomination...my apologies to Master Marine, who apparently have one. I am guessing it was a Tom Latham idea. Just a wild guess...


Leo Smith":7arg2qc3 said:
Design is a very subjective thing, and beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder.

With that being said, I am sure the C-Dory Venture 29 would have been a better designed boat if Ben produced the design!

Best regards,
Leo
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:embarrased :mrgreen: :thup :xlol :xseek :xnaughty :P

Oh Brother Pat.... carefule Brother...and remember our just be nice rule.

Having said that....I would be 180 out to say I disagree... Cheers.

Byrdman
 
I'm sorry, the Venture 29 is an abomination...my apologies to Master Marine, who apparently have one. I am guessing it was a Tom Latham idea. Just a wild guess...
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Proof that you can't just take a nice design, play with the proportions, and have it come out equally pleasing. That boat fell out of the UGLY TREE and hit every branch on the way down!

When I first saw it, I thought, "It looks like a Baby Huey boat. And answers the question no one asked."

How is it better than what's out there? Who do they think is the buyer for that boat? Interesting marketing: um, here's a big boat we made... anybody want one? Were any current C-Dory owners asking for something like this? (crickets chirping)

Another example of a company not listening to its customers (the best market research they could get and for FREE) and making a very expensive "detour" from their core customer. (sigh)

Best wishes,
Jim
 
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