Bearing Problems

JDS

New member
Jim and I had quite an adventure last weekend. We visited 3 Les Schwab's between Coeur d Alene and McCall Idaho. Had a flat tire on the left side of the trailer about 60 miles south of town and Jim changed to the spare by the side of the road. Then stopped in Moscow and bought a new tire, as the flat one had worn through. Going down Whitebird hill, the left trailer bearing blew out and we hobbled down the hill, (no cell service) and called AAA from a pay phone. Got our 27' load (boat and trailer) towed to Grangeville on a 20' flatbed (Yikes!) Spent the night at Les Schwab and at 8 am, they fixed it in about 30 minutes for about $34.00. They also checked the other one and said it was ok. Made it to McCall and on the way home to CDA, almost to Lewiston, the right trailer bearing blew out. Only this time, someone was following and told us right away, so we stopped immediately. Got towed to Lewiston on a wheel crutch and left the boat and trailer at Les Schwab. Verdict was needed a whole new axle because the spindle was shot. $1500.00 later, the boat is home. We had the bearings serviced less than a year ago and Jim has added grease every time we used it. Any ideas? Not sure what happened or if we got ripped off. In any case, we pretty much have a new trailer, brakes, etc.
Marti
 
Marti,

Sorry about the catastrophe!!! My suspicion is that when the bearings were serviced, the seals were not replaced, or a bearing seal was improperly installed. Either of which could allow water in to start the problem. It could also be that by adding grease after each use, the seals were blown out with too much grease. I don't know if there is any way that you can pin down a root cause.

I guess the upside is that like you said, you have pretty much a new trailer.

I hope to see you and Jim at Lake Powell this year.

Kind Regards,

Steve
 
It is tough to tell what happened. I meticulously pack my bearings and check everything every single year to prevent such thing. Well, last year it didn't matter what I did I got water every time I launched. What I found was I needed a sleeve on the spindle as the machined surface was shot. These are something NAPA stocks in most stores for future referrence or for now if anyone needs them. Like you I finally wrecked a set of bearings as I thought I had the leaking stopped (it wasn't), but I always carry a spare hub assembly so I was on my way in about 10 minutes. It is pretty cheap insurance by the way.....I'm a little confused as to why they just didn't weld a new spindle on though as that is a common practice. Perhaps because it was a tire shop.....Beats me...
 
Sorry to hear about your frustrating situation. In my pre- C-dory years I used to trailer between Seattle (where we live and I kept our boat) and Anacortes (where we launch to head off to the islands). One winter I thought I'd do some preventative maintenance and have the trailer's bearings replaced and repacked, and the surge brakes rebuilt. Used a reputable vendor that specializes in trailers. I'm also a fastidious greaser and regular hand-checker of bearing temperature. On the road up that Memorial Day Saturday I noticed our tow vehicle wasn't upshifting as easily as usual. Pulled over on the I-5 shoulder and was horrified to discover that one wheel had overheated and spit out all of its grease. Limped into a brake shop in Marysville that was luckily open and who determined that the brakes were set too tight. I continued to have little issues with the bearings on that trailer as long as I owned it. I almost wish I'd left the thing alone and not had the work done in the first place! Now we keep the boat in trailer storage in Anacortes, so hopefully our trailer nightmares are a thing of the past. I also saw another fellow C-Brat on the side of I-5 yesterday evening with flares deployed and dealing with boat trailer issues. So glad my trailering days are over... Mike.
 
Wow, sorry to hear about the bearing/tires/trailer problems but we're very glad it was just money spent and nobody hurt. It could have been a real catastrophe. We have had oil bath bearings for years with no trouble whatsoever, no water intrusion, no overheating, etc. From what you have described it sounds like the dealer was a little "creative" in pricing and work but since I was not there I cannot say for sure. Anyway, we're glad you're home safely.
 
(Steve said: I hope to see you and Jim at Lake Powell this year.)

Steve,

Unfortunately we are on the every other year plan for Powell, so we hope to make it back in 2012. We are hoping that the Sequim Gathering takes place this year and is the weekend following Labor Day as we have time available to make it west during that time frame.

Jim
 
Thanks for the input. Yes, I am still not sure what happened but want to avoid it happening again. Barry, you are right, no one was hurt and the boat is okay so we are lucky and blessed for that. Steve, we had the original packing and maintenance done by a reputable trailer repair place but they may have someone new there. And, someone at one of the Les Schwabs thought it could be that we overgreased the hubs. Especially with the bearing buddy, it may hold in extra grease and increase the chance for overheating. We will have to watch out for that. Mike, yes it is impressive when the tire looks like it's about to catch fire and I'm stnading there with the fire extinguisher while it's spitting out hot grease. TR, is that the "Spindo-Seal? If the axle shaft show corrosion or burrs near the inner seal, you can add this stainless sleeve right over the axle and reseal it. In any case, one guy said Les Schwab does not like the bearing buddy but then when they replaced the entire axle, it has new bearing buddies on there. Anyone else have these experiences?
Marti
 
I would make sure these bearing issues are not caused by heat from your brakes. Brakes can cause enough heat to melt the wheel seal then the grease flies out making for more heat from the lack of lube then things can catch fire. Surge brakes in the big hills can cause brakes to drag just from the tow vehicle's engine compression. For that reason some have switched to electric over hydraulic brakes for use in the hill country. This way trailer brakes are only applied when you step on the brake pedal. The conversion can cost upwards of 1200 dollars. I make it a habit on every stop to walk around and lay my hand on my tires to feel for any extra heat compared to the others and I touch my finger to each wheel hub for the same reason. The new posilube axles which have grease fittings in the end of the spindle and have the axle drilled so the grease travels from the fitting down through center of the axle to an area behind the bearing forcing grease out towards the bearing and also pushing older grease out. A rubber cab covers the hole accessing the tin grease cap. Keeping them full of grease does not leave any room for water to enter. Bearing buddies were better than just solid caps on hubs. The newer oil bath technology or posilube equipped axles with electric over hydraulic brakes are the way to go these days for the serious road warriors.
D.D.
 
Some brands of "bearing buddy" have a small relief hole on the side that the grease squirts out of when full to prevent over pressurizing the seals.
But it still will allow over pressurizing the seals if the round floating plate with the grease fitting gets jammed and will not slide back against the spring. The slider has to slide back a bit against the spring to uncover the relief hole.
I have even found "bearing buddies" assembled backwards, with the spring on the inside pushing the slider with the grease fitting tight against the outside.

I recently found a set backwards on a fellow Brats trailer, and it was not the first set that I have found that way. Couldn't tell you if they are sometimes sent from the factory that way or a done by a mechanic at a later time. Most of the time during a simple bearing repack the mechanic does not pop the snap ring and disassemble the bearing buddies.

If you have the ones with no relief hole and the spring operated floater is backwards it is real easy to blow out the inner seal when pumping grease.

I really like the new style spindles with the grease fitting on the end of the spindle.
This grease fitting is accessed by removing a flexible rubber washer in the center of the dust cap. Three advantages:
1. With the huge open hole in the end of the dust cap for the grease to flow out of, it is impossible to over pressurize the inner grease seal with a grease gun.
2. When greasing the hub, the new grease is delivered through the axle to the back of the assembly. You can keep pumping with the grease gun, forcing all the old grease out the front hole in the dust cap until new grease flows out.
3. If you have a friction causing event, stuck brakes, failed bearing, etc, and the hub begins to head up rapidly, the rubber outer cap will pop out, rather than blowing the critical inner seal. The slinging grease on the outside of the wheel will be more quickly discovered than on the inside at a failed seal. In this instance a simple bearing replacement or disabling of the stuck brake and replacing the rubber cap will let you make it home .
I think this new type was originally made by a company called Tie Down, but now several companies seem to offer it.
If you need an axle or spindle replacement I would consider these.
 
D.D., re: surge brakes

I was wondering if this was possible i.e. the overheating brakes causing the grease/seal failure. The repair guys didn't think that the brakes were showing the type of wear you might expect if this were the case but it is moving up on my list of explanations for two reasons. First, is that both failures occured either on or just after descending long hills/passes. The second wasn't as steep but had repeated construction sections that led to frequent heavy braking. The second is that the failures occured only 250 miles apart after approximately 4,000 miles of use prior. (While we have regularly gone over mountain passes it is possible the surge control knob got tightened and is now causing greater braking...)

Thanks for the information and thoughts. Any chance that since it is only single axle the switch to electric brakes would only be $600 (well how about only $800). We have a couple of local trailer specialty shops/manufacturers and I think I will check with them.

Jim
 
I don't think you can over grease a wheel bearing. Unless were talking about blowing the seal out. The Posilube hub talked about above allows for you to change the grease without removing the hub and doesn't leave any air in the system. The heat gets dissipated all the way out into the rim. The bearing buddies tend to grease the front bearing and grease never makes it to the rear. I can buy an axle for $200.00 and add brakes for $100 per side with posilube. $1500.00 to change an axle that seems steep. Should be able to do it in 2 to 3 hours at $75 to $100 an hour. It would have been a good time to upgrade to the posilube or oil bathed. The trailer I have now has oil bathed. It's 4 years old now and I just have to watch the oil level. I have 1 seal that started to leak water in the last couple of trips and I just replaced the seal and bearings on that wheel. When I took it apart the bearings were still in perfect shape but because it was apart they got replaced. You still need to check everthing once a year and make sure there isn't any play. Bearing Buddies repack them every year. Posilube flush the grease every year. Oil bathed change the oil every couple of years.
 
I stole a bearing experts post from a Harley forum, it is worth a read IMO.


By RobertC

On greases and bearings.

Greases have several functions.

Hold the oil in place so it is available to the bearing

Carry additives, such as anti wear of extreme pressure additives. (which, to complicate matters, are sometimes in the oil and not the grease.)

Doing that is rather more complex than it seems at first glance.

First, we need to select an oil voscosity. Yep, not all greases use the same "weight" of oil.

Along with that comes oil type questions.

Then we need to select a thickener.
Lithium
Lithium soaps
lithium hydroxode
Clay of various types
Calcium of various types
Polyureas
and other more exotic stuff.

and then we have the additives. Anti wear, extreme pressure, etc.

So now, we want to pick a grease to top up a cavity.

We need to select a compatible thickener first. Some mixes are compatible, some mixes make a runny mess, some mixes make hard particles that bearings do not like.

hmmm, people complain of runniness. Could mixed grease types be an issue?

Then we need to get the right NLGI grade. 0000 runs, 6 is a brick. 1 and 2 are common.

Finally, oil type and viscosity along with additives

I get paid good money to make these decisions. And they are sometimes quite involved and cause massive headaches.

Now, bearings. I get paid to nurse them along too, I see all of our failed ones, and any others I can lay hands on. I also spec bearing types, fits, lubrication, and other minutae.

Plain roller bearings are packed on installation. Like in our steering heads. This leaves a large space for us to fill. Sucks, but it is reality.

Ideally, on a high speed bearing you want the magic amount of grease, not too full, but enough to transfer some oil. On low speed steering heads, full is ok since we'll never churn the grease here.

You see, on a high speed machine a full bearing and cavity will lead to churning and heat. then failure. It is actually better to undergrease than overgrease a typical electric motor or rotating machine. I can actually pick up overgreased bbearings with my ultrasonics gear. Very distinct sound that your dog can hear quite well. At which point I monitor with vibration instruments until the bearing either rearranges the grease and quiets down or I see early signs of bearing failure.

As for HD cheaping out by not using sealed bearings, yep.

Now, be wary, do NOT EVER grease a sealed bearing. All you will do is ruin it. No matter the machine it is in. You just can't do any good with a grease gun on a sealed or double shielded bearing.

In fact, if you were to redo a steering head and put in sealed bearings you don't need any other grease. Period. And take the zerk out. Any greasing will, once the cavity is full, simply act as a hydraulic pump and push the seals/shield combo against the balls and cage. Toasting the bearing in short order.

As for shielded bearings. If using a single shileded bearing, the open side goes toward the grease fitting, and amounts of grease to add are adjusted down.

Double shielded, pack the cavity 70-80% full and walk away with thwe zerk in your pocket. Adding grease beyond that will end up pushing the shields into the balls. Toasted bearing results. All the lube that bearing ever needs will come from oil seeping out of the grease pack and into the bearings factory grease pack.

I'd guess, as pointed out before, that HD is using open bearing for cost savings. We then pump until grease comes out to flush out crud and water contaminated grease. And to ave HD a nickel.

If, in the next couple of weeks, I can find my special steering head grease gun I will see if my test gear will give me some idea of iots properties. At the very least I should be able to tell the thickener type. Which is, potentially, reason enough to not mix greases willy nilly.

Otherwise, I need to buy new stuff come spring "get ready" time and I'll do it then.
__________________
Lubrication Analyst in a nuclear power plant.

ICML certified Machinery Lubrication Analyst Level III

And some other stuff.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I am in the corner which would consider the surge brakes as a possible issue. My bearing problem on the 25 was also caused by long down grade--even though I did not use the service brakes often if at all. Engine compression braking can cause the surge brakes to "ride" a bit and over heat. There may not be much wear showing.

If you go to electric go electric over hydraulic, not just plain electric brakes which are designed for travel trailers, which do not get the wheels immersed in water.

Generally the lighter C Dory 22's have less of a braking problem, although I prefer a dual axel trailer over a single for anything but yard use.

We check the temp of the hubs every 2 hours with an IR thermometer. However, the time I had a problem, I had not checked them in over 4 yours, because of lack of a suitable place to pull off.....

Also many of us prefer Kodiac brakes over Tie Down.

The point of pumping in grease after use in water is good. But when you immerse any hot trailer hub in water a vacuum tends to be formed, and water pulled into the hub. I have used both the Posilube and Buddy Bearings. A good repack of the bearings still requires disassembly of the hub and inspection of the spindle and the bearing races.
 
JDS,
In switching to electric over hydraulic the hydraulic brakes stay the same you are changing the trailers coupler,adding a electronic master cylinder and adding a battery for the breakaway some the brakes come on if the truck and trailer separate. Pictures in my album First page look for sub album trailer mods. My new truck has adigital brake controller built but the conversion kit included a brake controller for the vehicle. I usually have my controller set to 7 when the boat is on the trailer. No slop in the hitch now we had to switch from a 2" ball to a 2 5/16 ball to match the new tongue set up. All the money is in the conversion at the trailers tongue and some new wiring in between the truck and the trailer. The only real difference in cost with a single axle is a couple less calipers to bleed.
D.D.
 
I have an easy loader trailer the axle is just steel and will rust . Ever time I replaced the bearings it was the seals that failed letting in water and rusting the seal surface. When you clean the seal surface use reduce the size of that surface after a while it is under size an will no longer work right. The brake caliper puck will corrode (they are brass) and stick causing the brake to drag to, making the problem even worse . The new axles use stainless stubs that bolt in curing the bearing problem but the only fix for the brakes is taking apart the wheel cylinders and cleaning them or replace them on a regular basis . Salt water just makes everything worse.
 
Ideally, on a high speed bearing you want the magic amount of grease, not too full, but enough to transfer some oil. On low speed steering heads, full is ok since we'll never churn the grease here.

You see, on a high speed machine a full bearing and cavity will lead to churning and heat. then failure. It is actually better to undergrease than overgrease a typical electric motor or rotating machine.

Chester

I agree with this. I spent 15 years in industrial maintenance we had some saw arbors that turned at 3600 RPMs and if you over greased them they would burn the bearings up faster than if you under grease them. We put hour meters on everything that turned 3600 RPMs or faster. We did have one shaft that turned 10,000 RPM we had to pump cooling oil to that one. On shafts that turned motor speeds of 1725 RPMs or 1100 RPMs you could grease these until you get some squeeze out from the bell housing and let them run. The 3600 RPM stuff we watch vibration and temperature to determine how many hours and how much grease to give each bearing and then kept them on that schedule. On a trailer a 205/75r14 at 60 miles per hour is spinning 750-800 RPM I wouldn't consider this to be high speed. The taper bearings typically are rated for 6000 RPM to 10,000 RPM and some as high as 15,000 RPM. So at 90 miles per hour you might see 1200 RPM. The autolube or posilube axel fills the entire cavity with grease and the grease can be change by simply pumping more grease through the system it doesn't allow for greasing just a little. The bearing buddy claims it builds positive pressure inside the hub so it won't allow water to come in. The problem there is the cavity would have to be full of grease and something would have to leak out the rear seal to move the new grease to the rear bearing. So you tend to see rear bearing failures with the bearing buddies. The other thing you see a lot is blown rear seals from over greasing. I would agree that the brakes probably cause the issue or the preload on the bearings was set to tight.
 
Thanks everyone for all the input. You have some great ideas and insights. Sounds like it could be a lot of things. i think trailers have too many parts and are too high maintenance, lol. We should invent something new that is simple and easy to fix.
Rob, We have a single axle EZ Loader.
Marti
 
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