battery question

thataway":rb6pyag3 said:
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.
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I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).
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Same thing happened again today. The boat was plugged in and charged up. Before we left the house, the SOC was 93%. When we got to the ramp about 1.5 hours later, the SG200 said the SOC was 1%. The only thing during the ride was the SG200 itself, a couple of USB ports (but nothing plugged into them), and the motor tilt was run once up and once down for the trailering. Once the boat was running, the batt SOC was 100% after 20 minutes. When we arrived home (which is actually longer than the trip there with the same electrical loads) the SOC was 94%. Since the engine started fine and all the electronics worked, clearly the battery was not at 1% charge when we launched the boat.
 
I certainly don't have an answer as to the readings of the Balmar Smart Gauge. But it seems this would be a case where the Balmar Smart Gauge, with a shunt would give the reading of how many amps were used in that hour or so that appeared to discharge the battery...

My only point thru all of this, is that it appears that the newest SG has an added capability, which might help resolve issues--such as this mystery. There is no doubt that the SG gauge works well for most people..
 
Localboy, that's a good story. I am not an engineer either and simple works for me. My Morningstar controller display has so many menus, options and histories that any techy would be entertained playing with it.
On the other hand tracking down an intermittent electrical glitch is no fun showing 1% without a low voltage error code showing on the guage is a clue. Maybe an intermittent bad or loose connection, or during trailering vibration a fault in the guage shows up?
I have a Blue Seas clamp on DC ammeter/voltmeter but it doesn't have a recording feature to find intermittent faults, but it might be the thing to try first in real time to help understand what is going on, anyway Ssobol you seem really handy with electronics so I'm not sure I can add anything that isn't already obvious to you. I think somewhere I read tha Balmar has good customer service in relation to the Smartgauge, maybe they could help?
 
The ideal way to track this (or other gremlins) issue is to data log the voltage and amperage in and out. There is a relatively in-expensive way--take a little fiddling, using Dataq Model DI-1100 4channel data logger. ($69) reading from a large shunt (you might have to experiment with the output to get signal down to parameters of the data logger and use their shunt to have the current from 4 to 20 mA. A windows program allows recording and viewing of the data.

Onset has a "Plug and play" logger, which will run about $500 with program, and shunt sensor.

There are DIY such as: a system using an Arduino Uno R3. Although this is made for solar/wind, any charging sources will work. This can monitor a number of other items. Probably total cost using the above data logger in the $100 range. Of course all of these include a shunt, and get more complicated. However with data logging, you can pinpoint the time, and probably source of problems.

The SG200 has a bluetooth dongle, which will send the data to a smart phone (Not sure if this is available from Balmar yet, but it is listed in the catalogue) That will allow someone in the vehicle to monitor the amps in or out, as well as voltage--to give clues as to what is happening.

The Victron 712 has the capability of sending data directly to the smart phone out of the box.
 
I kind of hate to bring this old thred back, but I said I would be a guinea pig for the non shunt simple Balmar Smartgauge.
On my 6 hour trip down from Puerto Escondido to La Paz our Smartgauge apparently did not like out new style Suzuki's charge voltage of up to 15 volts. When we arrived it read 26 volts and was flashing an overvoltage error code. It looks like it had switched over to a 24 volt meter, when the actual volts on my Blue Seas voltmeter read 13.2. We reprogrammed it several times going through every possible menu option that we could find to bring it back, ( I have very little patience with menus and error code troubleshooting, especially when the manual does not have a troubleshooting section, a waste of an hour and a half). There is an automatic set on the voltage and so it is not manually set.
If I had originally programmed it to not to over voltage alarm maybe it would not have lost its sense of voltage but I suspect the internal computer has it's brain scrambled and the unit will have to be replaced even though the unit is rated to a much higher voltage.
Suzuki owners may want to avoid the Smartgauge. I will not replace it as one early failure 1 is to many for me and I will never trust the system, I haven't yet called service as I am in Mexico till May which makes things difficult, I will call and follow up if Balmar has an explanation for the failure.
 
I've had AGM's for starting (and house batts) since ~2002. Very good results. Optima spiral-wound AGM's for starting my boat's 260hp Volvo diesel lasted 7 years. Sears Platinum (Odyssey) g34 AGM's several years, still going strong when I sold it.

Optima's in my Cummins diesel truck, which sits outside unused the vast majority of the time, 10 years. Deka "Intimidator" g34 AGM's some 4-5 and counting.

Hard to beat AGM's for trouble-free starting batts.

Deka g31 house batts in my 26-footer lasted 11 years. I did have a robust charging system and batt monitor.

Replaced my Nordic Tug's old batts (starting, house, and bow thruster - windlass) with Deka G31 AGM's - quite affordable, and so far so good.
 
Suzuki specifically recommends not using AGMs with their charging profile.
I have had U.S. made Lifeline AGMs in my last 2 boats, unfortunately not an option one this one. AGMs are not for everyone as house batteries as they need close monitoring, they must be fully charged to 100% within 5 charge cycles or they will have significantly shorter life.I do have a remote fill system for my flooded batteries which are of course the most abuse tolerant type for both voltage and charge perameteters.
 
This gets back to an earlier part of the thred in which I mentioned not liking amp counting monitors as they need constant recalibration as the batteries age in order to be accurate, I was hopeful that the Smartgauge type of monitor would work better for me.
The Victron looks to be the best of a bad lot to me, I may get one when I get back from Mexico even though between my Morningstar solar controller screen readout and my Blue Seas digital voltmeter I don't really need one.
 
Bob thought Balmar tech might help, they actually did respond to a call and an email with a detailed description of the Smartgauge failure. The news unfortunately is not good, apparently they think outboard flywheel charging may have an AC ripple which could destroy the guage,, I thought the big outboards like ours had a normal alternator type output so basically either they are clueless or don't have a clue (I am not going to waste my time pulling the cover off to take a look it won't fix my problem either way), both of which don't help me get the gauge going. They said it wasn't normal to have one on an outboard powered boat without a regular engine driven alternator and they had not considered it being used that way. Hopefully they will put this in their literature so boaters with outboards don't waste $250 on them.
Out to the islands tomorrow morning so no worries about this noncritical stuff as my voltmeter is still working fine.
 
I found this on the internet: "Mercury Marine, Honda Outboards, and also Seven Marine have alternators. Suzuki and Yamaha still come with stators. Of course all of the older engines, Johnson, Evinrude, Mariner, Force, Tohatsu, and etc. all have stators."

I checked the shop manual and my Honda 150 does have a 44 amp belt driven alternator. Suzuki's web site refers to "alternator", but I don't see any after market units...Micah--you have to check the oil anyway--so take a peek and see if there is a belt driven alternator. I don't think there is on my 140 Suzuki--but a different block than the 150/200 series.

There are lots of outboard boats using the Balmar Smart gauge. You would think that the battery would filter out most of the AC ripple, which the converter/regulator didn't. But we know that start up there will be voltage spikes and dips on any alternator system....(A reason to have electronics on a separate battery, with the ACR to charge after the engine has started.)

I believe that an "alternator" also produces Alternating Current, which needs to be rectified...so Balmar's argument could break down. The AC current is rectified to DC with the use of silicon diodes. The regulator cuts off the field current or exciting current for the rotor. The old generators did produce DC power, but it was at a lower current amount than what modern vehicles require. We had a "starter generator" on the gen set of one of my boats. One belt driven device: if you applied 12/high power volts to it, it became a motor. After the Diesel engine picked up speed, this same device became a generator producing a few amps of DC current directly keeping the start battery charged.

"In an alternator, electricity is produced when a magnetic field spins inside the stator (windings of wire). In a generator, on the other hand, the armature or
windings of wire spin inside a fixed magnetic field to generate electricity."

Sure sorry to hear that the Balmar is not working....Reading the manual:
SmartGaugeTM can accurately measure voltages between 9.00 and 17.00 volts in 12 volt mode
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. You did not exceed the 17 volts. There is a 2 year warrantee against defects in "workmanship".....Not a single word anywhere about not using outboard motors.

To clarify the Victron, only the 712 has the blue tooth feature built in, and does not require a dongle. I purposefully bought the 702, since I did not want or need bluetooth information to the cell phone.
 
Bob, thanks for the effort to sort out the Smartgauge. Yes tomorrow morning when I have the engine down to check the oil before we leave I will check for a belt driven alternator. Suzuki has set up its charging system a little differently in order to keep more output during low RPM trolling speeds. I added an ACR during my rewire with a separate combine switch that is off. That should filter the DC some, but I used the separate start battery monitoring voltage lead to the Smartgauge also which only monitors the start battery voltage, something I didn't really need as I can switch to it on my Blue Seas voltmeter ( we tried to get a picture of the voltage on the Blue Seas to send Balmar but apparently the digital screen flashes faster than the eye can see and it won't photograph), which I could have left off.
Anyway, after I toss the Smartgauge in the trash I will probably get a Victron monitor as I have had one of their solar controllers and it was solid. I would get one of their simplest models without bluetooth or the bluetooth dongle but that is the problem with some of the "convenient" modern electronics, the more features the less reliable. But the Victron looks like using a smart phone to program it is necessary for the most accurate programming. This stuff makes my K.I.S.S. head spin and why I still love my voltmeter. When I push the on button on electronics nowadays I hold my breath hoping it hasn't glitched or crashed. (Almos comical when I turn on the ignition switch on the Suzuki which tells the fly by wire computer to start the engine and I freak out until Dana reminds me to make sure it is in neutral!) I have had to do a hard reset on the computer engine guage after it lost all engine info and lost sleep the first time until I called and got the reset procedure, which can be found in the separate gauge manual. I think it is not communicating well with my Simrad chartplotter over the network I have separated the Suzuki and Simrad networks so they are both happy but I am not as now I am missing my fuel range and efficiency computer. The Simrad is programmed to work with it's available Suzuki interface program, so they should talk but some designers programmer left a few lines of code out of the program somewhere I suspect so it is glitchy.
I hope someday they work all the bugs out of all this new feature rich "convenient" "easy to use" equipment.

Thanks again for your help Bob.
 
Micah
I’ve been using my Balmar Smart Meter with 3 different Yamaha Outboards. A 200 hp 2 stroke, 200 4 stroke and the 9.9 kicker. They all as far as I know have stators. I have no ACR in my system so both battery banks are charged at the same time except with the 9.9 which produces only about 6 amps and charges the start battery. I’ve had to set my battery switch on both with the 9.9 or I’ll get an over voltage warning. Seems that the 9.9 is not very well regulated. I think your Balmar is defective and should be covered under warranty. I hate it when a company tries to “blow you off”.

It’s interesting what we learn about our boats as we use them. I added 3 AGM battery’s to my boat before learning in the small print that Yamaha only wants to have Lead Acid battery’s in place. I love my AGM battery’s and so far no problems. I think it’s a mater of cover their butt.

I know how difficult it can be when something is not operating correctly when you are in remote areas but you’ll work it out.

As I was reminded on a YouTube video yesterday “everything is broken on your boat, you just don’t know it yet”

Tom
 
Tom, thanks, I suspect you are right on the Balmar being defective it says it should work to 17 volts and I doubt the "AC ripple" theory I will try to work it out with Balmar when I get back in May. I have really liked my AGMs before also but I was worried that I might have problems so went conservatively because it is hard to get boat stuff in Mexico. I do like my remote fill system which takes a lot of the hassle out of flooded batteries. My problem with a lot of the new electronics is kind of the shiny object thing where my K.I.S.S. principals fly out the window!

Adios amigos
 
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