battery question

Bob, as I have said before, my 2 previous smart gauges with stunts never seemed any better than my (experienced, not saying it would work for anyone else) interpretation of a voltmeter, a waste of money. Now I know why, they need to gather new data for the computation by reaching full 100% charge, (as you say, rare on a small boat cruise) otherwise the results start to drift off and they become inaccurate. They don't seem to mention that before you spend your hard earned money.
The new Balmar smart gauge has a computer that interprets different battery data without a shunt, I don't need to know amps out or in, my solar readout has what I need of that. (Mine puts out up to 28 amps). The Balmar does give you true voltage (no need to "rest") and the current state of charge, these are the most useful (in my opinion) in the real world. So far the testing and reviews of this new technology are good. Since shunt gage's are basically only, effectively, just ammeters on our small boats I don't see them any more useful and in fact less useful than a good understanding of a voltmeter.
I know I am going against the current tide's love of shunt smart gages but I think they are only effective for power management on larger yachts with generators.
I am offering to be the guinea pig on the Balmar as with the wiring and fuses it will cost about $350, serious money for a new technology. After a several month winter cruise I will put up a new thred on whether I think it is worth the money vs. my interpretation of our Blue Seas digital volt meter ($42).
 
Looking back at my posts I realize I should say that my somewhat negitive opinion of Victron type shunt monitors is just based on my personal experience with them, many other very experanced boaters like them and they are the industry standard.
 
Here is what I see as a contradiction. As I understand it, the newer SG 200 with a shunt (2019 availability) does all which the "older" SmartgaugeTM 44 12/24 (2005 availability in the UK--a little later in the USA), but the SG 200 now is able to be accurate with the LiFePO4 batteries--which the SmartgaugeTM 44 12/24 was not able to work with. Also the newer SG 200 is cheaper, and will give a far more accurate picture when charging. (This was an area where the older unit was not as accurate).

A good article to read is by Rod Collins, Compass Marine. This is about the original SmartgaugeTM 44-12/24. He now sells the SG 200 which he claims is superior to the original. This is a guy who has done extensive testing and feels that the SG 200 is better than the original

While visiting the web site, if youhave time, and are interested he has a great article on LiFePO4 batteries. (He has been using them for a number of years.)
Rod Collins, is an ABYC certified electrical technician, and is on the standards committee of ABYC. He also manufactures some electrical components.

You pays your money, and makes your choice. But why not pay less and get more? Today, I would buy the Smartgauge SG200 over any of the Columb (Amp Hour) meters. However the installation is critical. Also the Victron 702 etc are all good, if you realize the limitations, and are willing to re-calibrate. I don't have the SG200, because it was not available when I put in my second battery system. It is now. I would purchase from the site above--it is $220--comperable to all of the others within a few dollars.
 
I am still not convinced that any shunt system will work out that well in the ACR interconnected multi-charged system that I put together. I could easily be wrong, and the Balmar with a shunt could work differently than other monitors. I think the typical monitors are too complex and I want a simpler system that just gives me what I want, volts and particularly % of charge, that's all I need to self monitor my house batteries, especially since I had to go back to the old flooded batteries (Suzuki charge system) that are more tolerant of abuse. I have been perfectly happy monitoring my batteries with the voltmeter and experienced judgement using a % of charge chart on my phone. If this Balmar equals my judgment process it will save some time and it will also be easier for Dana. The LiFePo4s need a DC to DC charger added to the already complex system that seems a bit much even for me at this point as it would still have to utilize a flooded start battery....but next year....? I know a lot of you guys know more about electronics than I do, I am a jack of all trades, master of none.
I guess I am a sucker for trying something "new" and simpler, we will see how this Balmar stacks up.
 
Bob, I'm confused and I'd like some help.

First of all, I understand that there are 2 types of battery meters behind discussed, both Balmar: an SG200 and a Smartguage. One uses a shunt, measuring amps in and out. The other has no shunt but uses some algorithm to give % SOC. Am I correct?

Second the article by Russ Collins concerns the Balmar Smartgauge, which he now proclaims to be the gold standard, saying that shunt type meters do not give a true SOC but the Smartgauge does.

How can you compare the two and install a shunt meter? Is there some factor one can use to make the two types equivalent? I do understand that the Balmar Smartgauge is new and needs some history.

Boris
 
Boris,
Here is the way I understand it. The "SmartgaugeTM 44 12/24" was patented in about 2005 by an English Company. Balmar became the licensed distributer for the US. Lithium battery technology has such a flat discharge curve, the SmartgaugeTM 44 12/24 was not at all accurate. CDI/Balmar developed a new gauge which would read the lithium as well as carbon foam, lead acid, and AGM etc. There was a second problem with the original SmartgaugeTM, and that was when being charged, was also not accurate, but was shortly after the charging was complete.

By adding a shunt, and modifying the program, the SG 200 retains the 'intelligence" of the original gauge, but adds in the ability to be accurate with LiFePO4 batteries and when all batteries are charging. It also gives "state of health"--which compares to a "new" battery, as well as State of Charge. Balmar SG 200 won IBEX 2018 Innovation award a year ago. It was generally available in the US the first part of this year. Read the articles to see what else it can or cannot do.

As to what technology the SmartgaugeTM and the SG200 use--that remains a secret.

What Rod Collins says in this article on the SG 200

Please do not make the mistake of comparing the SG200 to a traditional Ah counter. They are not the same at all and not even close to being the in the same category ease of use wise. The SG200 is using multiple technologies to track the bank and doing so in a multiple cross-check fashion. The SG200 can measure and cross-check; battery impedance, internally stored battery behavioral models, voltage – measured many thousands of times per second, coulomb-counting, amperage/load, time *etc. and a self-learning algorithm to bring it all together.

*Etc. – There are other measurements & trade secrets going on inside the SG200 that we cannot publish.

The unique aspect of the SG200 is that each of these data measurements is cross-checked and is compared to the others so that no single measurement can control or skew the data. The SG200 can track both SoH and SoC and to do so very accurately without any cumbersome programming or manual re-sync being necessary.
Click to expand...

A lot of this is "developing" technology. Today a number of RV's are offered with LiFePO4 batteries as either standard or an option. Only in the last year, have there been good charging solutions for use of the engine alternator. My previous RV was a Monaco. One of the members of the Monaco Forum started using Li batteries in 2007. This was the first use of them in an RV with controlled conditions that I am aware of.

Victron has one of the few inverter chargers which has specific programs for LiFePO4 batteries. (Victron MultiPlus Compact 12/2000/80-50 120V VE.Bus Inverter Charger) I had Battleborn (group I purchased LiFePO4 batteries from) program the Inverter/charger, and the Victron 702. They took into account that I had one 100 amp hour battery, which had XX amount of use and was 6 months old. I had to give them the number of cycles, and depth of discharge. The 2nd battery I was buying with the Inverter was tested also, and that taken into account. I am charging a 200 amp hour bank at 80 amps during the initial charging phase. The program measures the battery temp, the battery voltage and the ambient temp of the inverter charger to give protection.

I hope that clears up any questions about the Balmar SG200.
 
Thanks, Bob. I was under the impression that the Balmer SG200 was a different way of getting SOC with a shunt.

Instead, it appears that the Balmar SG200 is a further development of the Balmar Smartgauge, using a "smart shunt" to additionally give SOH and current in/out. And also working with LiFePO4 batteries, which you have and I don't.

Hope I interpreted everything correctly.

Boris
 
The Balmar SG200 uses a shunt like the Victron units. The difference is that the Balmar SG200 is allegedly smarter than the Victron and automatically corrects for battery condition as the battery ages.

Supposedly the problem with the Victron type units is that if the operator does not periodically update the settings based on battery condition, the accuracy of the readings degrade over time.

The SG200 is that it is meant for house battery banks. The manual says

"The SG200 is designed to monitor a battery or battery bank which is used in deep cycling applications. It relies on the battery being discharged and then charged to learn the battery’s characteristics. This learning process may never occur on a start-only battery, since it is never cycled."
Click to expand...

I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.
 
I just hope after this discussion that the non shunt Balmar that I ordered will give me what I have always wanted: a simple easy to use no brainer voltage and % of charge reading on my conventional house battery bank. I don't need anything more, just K.I.S.S. (I am the SS of course)
Thanks all.
 
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.
Click to expand...

I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).
 
I can't add a link, but Google: Balmar Smartgauge Battery
Monitoring Unit - Marine How To

Seems like what I want, simple, easy, accurate, not affected by multiple charging sources and no amp counting errors. None of which I could say about the old monitors that drove me crazy with inaccuracies.
 
Yes, sorry missed your link. This is one of many I found on the smartguage with Google. I'm glad they reinforced my choice. It will be a perfect addition to my Solar controllers smart meter menu.
 
I’ve used the Balmar Smartgauge on our 25 for about 4 years now. It’s simple and has worked perfectly. I do not have any solar on the C-Otter. If my state of Charge gets below 60 percent I fire up the Honda 2000 and power my battery charger. Used less than 5 gallons of fuel in it for the 4 1/2 months we were live aboard this summer. Others have different power needs and solar can be the answer. Easy installation.
 
thataway":ny4dir40 said:
I have seen my SG200 give unexpected readings. I have found that my batteries were reported to be down to 4% SOC after an hour and a half of running the fridge (towing the boat to the launch). Since the fridge draws about 2.6a when the compressor is running it is not possible to deplete the battery to that state that quickly. Also, since the motor started right up and the electronics all worked, this reading had to be false. This has happened more than once.

Hopefully after some more cycles, the readings will be more correct.
Click to expand...

I suspect that shutting off the battery when you are not using the boat is part of the issue--I believe that these type of gauges are meant to be used long term as in day by day cruising--and cycling the battery banks. It may well be that the system has to "learn again. The other issue, is if you are using the house bank to start the engine--that may give some other issues??. I isolate the electronics from the engine start battery. I learned that lesson many years ago, when I blew the diodes on a very expensive Kenyon wind speed and relative angle system in the early 1970's--voltage drops and spikes during engine start need to be filtered out. Modern electronics are better 40 some years later, but I occasionally still hear complaints on places like THT where someone has electronics problems related to using them on the engine start battery.

What does the SG 200 voltage and amps used, and Health of battery show you after this very brief run?

I would ask the question of Balmar engineers and Rob Collins to see what they say. I leave my house battery bank on and the Norco "Genius" charger running all of the time. (but I don't have one of the SG 200--maybe I need to compare it with the system I have. That gets complicated with two shunts on the same battery bank.).
Click to expand...

I have noticed that some things get screwed up from a engine start. There is a risk that my FF system can get reset to the default settings if the system is on when the engine starts.

The SG200 is connected right to the battery. So I expect that setting the BATT switch to off does not affect it. Since my boat tends to sit at a remote location for awhile between uses I prefer to switch the batteries off and open the main breaker when it is stored. The only draw on the battery when the boat is stored is the battery meter.

Before and after each trip in the boat (or after getting from and before going into storage), the batteries are charged using the onboard charger and shore power.
 
Tom, thanks for your positive post, one other c-brat messaged me with the same.
I stopped carrying our Honda 2000 when I realized how fantastic our solar covers all our needs at anchor, fridge, freezer and now the watermaker and everything else. After a sailboat with all its shady rigging our 25 cabin top and arch is great for solar, and it is a very easy install. I'm sure the Smartgauge will be the final useful piece to complete a completely new boat wide electrical system.
 
I just put up a photo in my album of my new Smartgauge working next to my Morningstar controller display that together are looking great as (for me) a better battery monitoring system than an amp counting monitor. It was also a very easy install, with virtually no programming.

Also put up a photo of my new remote battery fill system. (I have to use the more high voltage tolerant flooded batteries because of the Suzuki's charging system).
 
Our SG is the original but only a few yrs old. There was a huge debate on what battery monitor was "best" on the TF site. Personally, I like the simplicity of the Smartgauge; both installation and use. Like I've said before: I'M NOT AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER.

Some of the hard-core TF posters were adamant about other, more complex units. The debate got borderline ridiculous and nearly devolved into personal insults. I finally ignored it all. I told one member that boating is my respite from life's sh*t-sandwich and it wasn't worth trying to convince the hard-core believers that something simple could work.

We have not had our simple solar system enough to have any solid input. I can say it seemed to keep up with our draw, including an older Norcold refer, but that's starting with a fully charged house battery in summer sun.
 
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