Bad stuff in BC

C-Val":660kftqf said:
I imagine there could be lawsuits coming in future days for whatever reason.

It makes me wonder as a boat owner who takes guests out periodically, am I putting myself at risk by being nice to my friends?
Is there special insurance required if something goes wrong?
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Yes, if you take guests on your boat, you are opening up yourself to risk. Just as if you gave a friend a ride in your car. Or host a party in your back yard. Insurance for commercial operators isn't inexpensive. Consider the number of passengers, the number of trips (in all kinds of weather) and the exposure is much greater.

Incidents like this are rare; the whale watch industry has an impressive safety record. As a whale watch captain, I know how much we train, and the emphasis our particular company puts on safe operation.

Conditions in the PNW can be harsh, even on the nicest days. Sudden immersion in cold water is an immediate life-threatening situation.

You cannot let your guard down. Even in wildlife viewing situations, you have to constantly keep your head on a swivel. Many times, I have turned the boat away from the wildlife to put the bow into approaching waves or wake. You have to know what is happening with guests everywhere on the boat. We depend on regular communication with crew.

Tragic, sad situation.

Jim
 
Interesting article, thanks for the link. I did note that it says it is "preliminary information" (I had wondered how a report could come out so quickly).
 
The prelim report has some nuggets of info, which suggest some plausible scenarios. I am waiting for more complere info to comment further. I have paddled in a sea kayak in the general area where the vessel was swamped, and can vouch for the irregularity of the depths. Ten foot swells can really pouch up when they come through a shallower section, yet without breaking. When there is a sizeable swell running, I would rather boat in open waters of depth than over an irregular bottom.
 
Excellent points, and none of us know what happened. I have heard reports from that the boat took on massive amounts of water, Rogue Wave, rough, calm with rollers, to capsize, flipped end over end, to gear failure? We are also told that many of the passengers were on the top deck, and on the port side looking at Seals or Sea Lions.

Marc Andre Poisson, Director of Marine Investigations for Canada's Transportation Safety Board, said Tuesday
that having so many people on the left side of the boat "raised the center of gravity."
Initial response from Transport Canada:
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"We know that most passengers were on the top deck on the port side, that's the left side of the vessel. This would have raised the center of gravity, affecting the vessel's stability," Poisson said at a news conference in Tofino.

"We also know that the sea conditions were such that a wave approached from the starboard quarter, that's the right of the vessel. We know that the vessel broached and then capsized."

He said investigators have now interviewed the three crew members and some of the passengers. One life raft deployed and was used, he said. The full investigation is expected to take months.
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One hopes to make any of these situations a learning experience. This is one of the beauties of the internet. How many professional skippers have a "ditch bag" at the ready, or a hand held radio on their person? I have been on the bridge/pilot house etc of a number of commercial vessels--and none have I seen a ditch bag, or a hand held VHF, attached to the person of the skipper. I have often seen hand held radios in the wheel house. y (confirmed on this vessel by press) I'll ask my tug skipper friend next time I see him what they have on the Crowley Tugs.

I keep the "ditch bag" next to my feet at the helm of any boat I am on--including the dinghy--that bag goes where I go when boating. Along with VHF radio, PLB, Flares etc. that are contained in the ditch bag.

For discussion purposes here is the photo of the boat.
LeviathanII-51380.jpg

We see at least 3 canister life rafts (confirmed by the press)--generally these size of canisters are going to be 12 to 15 passengers rafts, but we don't know if they had hydrostatic release. There was also an inflatable, but don't know if it were carried, or if it was strapped down. We know that at least one raft was deployed, since there is a photo of it in one of the videos. Press states 8 or 9 passengers were taken from at least one life raft.

The next question we have to ask, (applying an emergency to our type of boats) is what is the skippers, response to any emergency. I believe it should be the safety of passengers/crew. Thus some distress signal should be the first response. The range of a water level portable VHF is very limited--it is possible that the skipper was helping to get people who were in the cabin, out of the boat. In the past this same company had loss of life in incidents.
 
Good old following seas on the stern quarter. So few boats perform well in that situation. This boat has the appearance of being heavy in the bow, which would make correcting the problem more difficult once you began to broach.

It's a horrible story. Hats off to the First Nations who responded. I work for a similar organization and we are involved in SAR fairly often, however as I've posted, we rarely get the opportunity to rescue, but do a lot of searching. I hope we would do as well if the situation called for it.
 
Yes, a horrible story & one to learn from. This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. This area too, had reefs & shallow areas, which could create large waves seemingly out of nowhere. We were out in this area in 10 footers & all was well except for one wave out of the blue that rose up much much higher & very steep & though we were headed directly into it & the curl on top small it still was very worrisome to us. I think if it would have have hit the Leviathan 11 in the same manner as the one that did, the results could possibly have been the same. It seems the boats that are carrying paying passengers into these type of waters & conditions may need a higher certification level, but I definitely don't know enough about the present ones to be sure. It will be interesting to read the finished incident report. One would think in a 20 year span this boat would have been exposed to many similar waves from all directions with the passengers up top & in similar positions too. I hope they can piece together why this time the boat capsized.

Jay
 
"This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. " Was that up around Cross Sound( if memory serves me correctly) or down at the south end of the island?" We had a couple of rough days trolling with a 30+ ft. boat years ago on the north end when coming out from the narrow slots twixt the islands there, wasn't a lot better farther out. I guess this is called acquiring local knowledge the hard way. To bad about the incident in BC, that boat just "looks" top heavy to me, I was looking at some of the Bayliners with enclosed flybridges and they give me the same feeling. I am sure it is just my perception in both cases.
 
That Archipelago is funny like that. I've spent hundreds of solo skiff hours in southeast, and it was always impressive how, while running through islands, some passages could be serenely calm and some could be raging with huge waves at the same time. Sometimes there seemed to be no rhyme nor reason to it, others, tide and wind predicted which passages would be rougher and which calmer. I don't consider myself a local to the area, but I think the local knowledge is the understanding and acceptance of the unpredictability.

Large swells interacting with shallow areas are treacherous. The odd large swell can behave very differently than other smaller swells. Couple that with the tide going out and sometimes 20' tide differences means currents are an additional factor, and the depth is constantly changing. Waves tend to be well behaved until the bottom of the wave (most of a wave lies beneath the surface) comes into contact with the bottom causing it to break. The larger the wave appears to us on the surface, the more depth it requires. IF those 10' swells were just off the bottom below the surface, then a slightly larger wave might behave very differently. When approaching from aft it could catch a helmsman off guard.

Most power boats weathervane with their stern quarter to the wind. That's one of the dangerous parts of your engine dying. Because of anti-harrassment regulations, most whale watch boats are supposed to be in neutral or have their engines off. If the waves and wind are coming from the same direction (i.e. usually) this leaves most boats ready for a broach. It isn't practical for a whale watching boat to toss an anchor out, or use a sea anchor. Most sail boats point nose into the wind, but the compromises of a planing or semi-displacement hull (and probably a lot of displacement hulls, but that is out of my expertise) and a forward cabin is a fairly poor posture when adrift. Had this boat gotten its bow into that wave under power it would have likely have amounted to no more than a little belly flutter for most of the guests and a pucker for the crew, not to second guess a situation I am only familiar with through media reporting but to make an observation that may be of use to someone else some day.
 
Gene Stebbs.":cdz8naua said:
"This is why on our first outside water exploring of Chichigof Island Southeast, Alaska, we were told by a fisherman who had fished those waters for the previous 40 years not to go there even in wide spaced swells if they were over 10 feet. " Was that up around Cross Sound( if memory serves me correctly) or down at the south end of the island?" We had a couple of rough days trolling with a 30+ ft. boat years ago on the north end when coming out from the narrow slots twixt the islands there, wasn't a lot better farther out. I guess this is called acquiring local knowledge the hard way. To bad about the incident in BC, that boat just "looks" top heavy to me, I was looking at some of the Bayliners with enclosed flybridges and they give me the same feeling. I am sure it is just my perception in both cases.
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Gene, the area I was directly referring to starts about 20 miles south of Cross Sound at the open ocean end of Lisianski Strait & continues 9 miles south to Imperial Passage. In this area are scattered islands small enough to let most of the swell continue on with water depths rapidly changing from 15 to 250 feet among them & close by to the open ocean to the west. This area is not necessarily unique, as I believe many areas along the North Pacific Coast to be similar & why if out there running very close to shore or trying to access a inlet or bay in such an area one must be very aware of water depth, current & sea conditions at present & forecast. Though there are many areas like this most are not quite as isolated. If this incident had happened there, the survival of any would be doubtful.
 
Although I agree with much of the above, the statement:"
Most sail boats point nose into the wind"
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I would disagree with. (How many times I had wished that was true!--especially where I had to wear ship to come about in one of my boats). Generally sailboats will lie beam to wind, or quartering down wind--a lot depends on hull design. (See Gerr's The Nature of Boats", and Van Dorn"s Oceanography and Seamanship"--books which serious mariners should own and study).

Yes, there are "summation" waves,ut where in sets, one or more will be considerably higher than the average.

But again, we don't have all of the facts. It is entirely possible that something happened aboard the boat to cause its capsize (again assuming that this is what the board of inquiry finds). The skipper and the boat both apparently had 20 years of history in the same area.
 
Hunkydory...yeah I have been there a couple of times, the passes north to get the east side of Chichikoff Island are nasty under some condition as I recall, like you said there are many tricky spots in SE AK when the seas meet large tide where it shallows quickly. I found talking with the locals very helpful the first couple of years. Experience is the key to staying off the bottom of the sea.
 
Believe me there are many millions who have never seen a seal, or sea otter in the wild, or other than TV, and they will crowd to one side of the boat! We are just the lucky few who take these things for granted.
 
LeviathanII-51380.jpg

In this picture there are 8 or 9 individuals visible aboard. The accident happened with 27 on board. Still not near a full load but there is obviously room for all 26 to be up against one rail. That is roughly about 2 tons. Still probably not enough to singularly cause a roll, but .....

On a trip this summer, I was a passenger on a Whale watch boat out of Juneau and with 40 passengers all moving to one side there was a definite list. Because it was a catamaran the crew was comfortable with the situation. The cat would be more stable with that list than a mono hull for sure.

Bob is right, there are plenty of folks who have never seen what marine life we see on a regular basis.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon


JC_Lately_SleepyC_Flat_Blue_070.thumb.jpg
 
An Indiana couple was involved in this tragic event and said in the newspaper, it was a rogue wave. Both are now fine but swallowed sea water and diesel fuel and now at their home
 
chromer":3pcm9j7i said:
Do they really need to sell liquor on a whale tour? You never know what kind of crowd shows up on these things. I really dont understand why everyone would be crowding around on top deck to see a seal, otter or something like it
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Seal and sea lion viewing is popular on our wildlife trips. I have guests specifically ask if we will see them. Stellar Sea Lions especially, because of their size; seals because "they are so cute." The opportunity to see whales is the big draw, but there is a great variety of wildlife that many people have never seen in the wild. The captains will trade information if there is a puffin or a river otter to be seen. Each trip is a unique opportunity.

The company I drive for does not allow alcohol on any public trip. If a party charters the boat, they can purchase a Washington State beverage license so they can have alcohol onboard. It is still up to the captain and crew to maintain safety - on private charters I do make mention of the increased effects of alcohol when on the water. I do not know the regulations regarding this subject in Canada.

On US Coast Guard inspected boats, stability tests determine the number of passengers allowed. Those tests include moving the estimated weight of "passengers" around the boat. Out on the water, I see some boats that heel more than others under the weight of all the passengers on one side.

Seeing the photos of the Leviathan II, it looks like the worst stability situation would be all the passengers aboard on that higher middle deck. Pure speculation, but had the guests been distributed around the boat, it would have helped offset the weight "aloft. It would seem (to me) that more guests (more than the 24 they were carrying), so that there would be some lower and distributed fore and aft, would be more stable. In a stability test, it would be near impossible to anticipate
a half load of guests, all on the highest deck, and an undetected large wave from the other side.

There was one day this summer where all the boats out of Friday Harbor canceled trips - horrible wind. Earlier, there was one trip where we couldn't get to the whales because of nasty conditions where Haro Strait and Juan de Fuca come together. The forecast was for 2 to 3' waves; we were experiencing 5 to 6' waves and worsening conditions. We had two boats out there, and we both made the decision to get back inside (into more protected water) where conditions were better. In nasty conditions, you are on high alert... when conditions are more benign, you have to not let yourself get lulled into not keeping your guard up. (sorry for the double negative)

Anyone who has spent time on the water has had those "Where did that come from??" moments. Even at anchor. Might be unanticipated wake from a passing ship, confused wave patterns coming together, higher than normal tides making for stronger than normal current, a whale surfacing close, debris in the water (really tough to see in close wave conditions), a boat coming up behind you, rapidly changing weather. Closer to shore, you tend to be more "aware," but you simply can't let your guard down.

The difference between driving your own boat and driving an excursion boat are marked. Schedules, expectations, and responsibility... some guests come onboard completely unprepared clothing-wise (even though they were given good information in writing), expecting the trip to be like a Disney ride. It isn't. I am often told, "You have the best job ever," and it can be pretty spectacular; it is also a lot of work and responsibility.

Imagine what the owner and crew of Leviathan II must be going through. The families of those who were lost. The thought of this makes my heart ache.

Try as you might, this situation drives home the fact that the unexpected can happen. Being able to see the wildlife is something that some might take for granted. Most boat crews that I know take the responsibility very serious, and look forward to introducing people to seeing wildlife in their natural habitat; educating the public about the wildlife; hoping that each guest gets to take home a new understanding and some great memories. All in a safe and respectful manner.

My heart sank when I first heard this news. Days later, it is still hard to see/hear it discussed, often by people who just don't understand what can happen on the water. The Pacific Whale Watch community has a fine safety record - hopefully we can learn from this... not just commercial operators, but all those who spend time on the water.

Jim
 
Jim, You are so right. This was hard news for me to hear too. Felt like my heart just drained in an instant. It will be really good to see the final report and hopefully there will be information we can learn from in that. For something going so wrong in an instant, there was a lot that went all right, for that many people in the water, unprepared, to be rescued goes to the credit of those local fisherman community.

On my trip this summer, (N. Vancouver Island) I heard a story about a fishing boat rescue, interestingly, involving a school mate of mine, (from back in grade school), and I found it came from a book, "Dangerous Waters" Wrecks and Rescues off the BC Coast, by Keith Keller. This book has 24 stories about wrecks and rescues, and the one about Bruce and his involvement in a Rescue not far from Winter Harbor is the first one.

I purchased the book, looking to learn from what went wrong, and what could be done differently. In that first story, it goes to keeping a schedule. Remembering Roger (Dreamer's) tag line "The most dangerous thing on a cruising boat is a schedule" and I think it applies to all boats. In the story the issue is fishermen changing locations, and timing.

Jim, I applaud your decision to call off, or reroute to avoid the heavy seas. I would feel safe on your boat anytime.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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BrentB":hg2p8yry said:
An Indiana couple was involved in this tragic event and said in the newspaper, it was a rogue wave. Both are now fine but swallowed sea water and diesel fuel and now at their home
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I wonder what a rogue wave is to a couple from Indiana. Something they read about in a novel? Heard on TV? Or had the vessel entered a rip between two islets when skipper threw the helm hard over to try to get stern to a large wave, only to have the boat list from the prop thrust just in time for a standing wave and the passenger's weight shift knock them over? How would a couple from Indiana describe that? A rogue wave?

I was fishing on the jetty at Westport when some tourists pulled up. A little boy looked out at the waves and asked if it just keeps flushing over and over. Nobody in the party was quite certain how to answer. So I'm leery of the nautical knowledge of tourists.

And I'm a skeptic. I think that there's only one person on board who knows what happened.

Mark
 
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