9.9 yamaha high thrust kicker/auxiliary on 16?

J

JDrew

New member
Our 2002 16 cruiser has the original Honda 40, recent carb rebuild. ran fine for the tank test. Gonna set up a 2nd motor as backup that can switch- hit on the Maine coast and Champlain, our yard has suggested the 9.9 yamaha since we need electric start & power tilt, but it weighs 106 lbs. I've seen 16's with 8hp kicker/60hp mains so similar weight, and might move our battery forward under the port seat to distribute better (kicker will be starboard as we have portside swim platform). Power tilt isn't available on the 8hp, and the oomph of the 9.9 w/ low gear ratio & bigger prop is appealing for pushing the boat up to 10kts and potential tandem use in tidal current or other times when the 40hp is challenged. Any thoughts anyone?
 
JDrew":292n1guw said:
is appealing for pushing the boat up to 10kts and potential tandem use in tidal current or other times when the 40hp is challenged. Any thoughts anyone?
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I had a 9.9 with tilt/trim on my 22. I never used except to test it. It was a comfort, though, kind of like a first aid kit I never used. It is unlikely you can get 10 kts (11.5 mph) with a 9.9 motor. Hull speed for a 16 is 5.4 kts (6.2 mph), and once you start pushing it past that you will start to climb your bow wave and generate a large wave in general. You should be able to get to 6 mph easily with the 9.9, but you can also do that with a much less powerful and lighter motor. Lightly loaded, my 22 can now plane at 12 mph, but needs a few more mph to plane steadily, and a lot of power to climb over that bow wave. Perhaps a 16 owner has more experience with the lighter, shorter boat. For strong wind and/or tidal rips, more power would be good in keeping the boat pointed. C-Dories in general are light and get pushed a lot in wind. If not going more than about 10 miles and slower (4.5 mph) is OK, you might consider an electric motor that doesn't need to be pull-started, and a couple of 100 amp LiFePO4 batteries, which would be way cheaper than the 9.9. I have an 80 lb Minnkota mounted to the top of my antiventillation plate, and I use this all the time, particularly for trolling. Also one time when my 2nd tank had bad fuel in it. That would have stopped both my main and kicker, so I would have been paddling instead of motoring home at 4.5 mph with the electric.
 
A friend with a 16 has a 6hp I believe with charging. I think a 9.9 would mean you have to move batteries around to rebalance the boat and isn’t worth that extra weight especially if you want to upgrade to a bigger main in the future. The only reason I could see getting a 9.9 if you plan to upgrade to a bigger c-dory in the future and take it with you.

Where are you getting your batteries @robhwa? It would cost me thousands to put the alternator protection, shore charging and battiers in.
 
kaelc":1a917dck said:
you getting your batteries @robhwa? It would cost me thousands to put the alternator protection, shore charging and battiers in.
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No, not "thousands", but yes, perhaps not too much of a savings over installing a 9.9 with tilt and electric start when added up. The versatility is the main advantage plus little weight on the transom. The main disadvantage is unless you have a generator and charger (I do), your range is limited. My rig is 2 BattleBorne 100 Ah ($699 each right now), Renogy DCS50S (2 inputs, solar and alternator) $299, Minn Kota RT/EM80 mounted to antiventillation plate (don't remember). I also have a MinnKota 80 lb bow mount motor, which can troll a route, follow a compass heading, or "anchor" the boat. I love the bow mount, but with large waves it comes out of the water, and adding 80 lb more thrust doesn't give much more speed over the one mounted to the main. You can visit my site to see the setup back when the 9.9 was still mounted.
 
The DCS50S looks helpful, and it’s on sale, but do I still need a shore power charger that’s compatible or could I somehow hook my guest charger up to it as well? Did you put the dcs in the battery area near the transom or locate it in the cabin?

So no need for additional alternator protection as long at connect through another battery?

For this setup you have a regular starting battery, your three way battery switch the dcs then your Battleborns? Would love to troll with an electric motor someday as bullet proof as my Honda 9.9 has been it sure is noisy.
 
robhwa, where area you finding Battle Born 100 amp batteries for $699? They have come down from the $1100 I paid for my first one....

You have a 50 to 50 DC charger, but it appears that you have a BF 90, which only has a 17 amp alternator output. Even the ones after 2007 only have 40 amps--and you should "leave" power for running the motor and house batteries...

4.5 mph with the Minn Kota 80? 70# thrust equals 1 hp, and so you are getting about 1.2 hp at the max. I have comparisons on both the 22 and 25 with Torqeedo 1103 and a 3.5 hp 2 stroke Merc. You are pushing to get that speed with the 3.5 hp Merc...I also have experience with an 80# thrust trolling motor on my Caracal Cat, where I have compared both the Torqeedo and the Merc 3.5--more easily driven hull and cannot get 4.5 with the trolling motor.

The Minn Kota appears to be no longer made.
 
thataway":3adkxby1 said:
robhwa, where area you finding Battle Born 100 amp batteries for $699? They have come down from the $1100 I paid for my first one....
robhwa...yes, just ordered the same one (Battle Born 100 amp 12 volts) for $699. My other two cost more like $1100 ea. Other LiFePO4 are even cheaper, and prices will likely continue to drop, making these as an alternative more affordable. Alternately, outboards are getting more expensive. I'm comparing current prices.

You have a 50 to 50 DC charger, but it appears that you have a BF 90, which only has a 17 amp alternator output. Even the ones after 2007 only have 40 amps--and you should "leave" power for running the motor and house batteries...
robhwa...A have a newer one now. Certainly it can only pass through what the alternator provides. Since it will add the solar panels it often hits 50 amps. This DC/DC also prioritizes the starting battery, and only passes charge through to the house batteries when the starting battery is charged. A nice feature is that it will also charge the starting battery from the solar panels, which can be a problem, particularly with an old starting battery, if things sit for a long time. I keep the DC/DC charger inside the cabin since it isn't marine rated. I like this thing a lot and also have a similar setup in my camper. The RAM3500 alternator can put out 200 amps, but the 50/50 limits charging to 50 amps.

4.5 mph with the Minn Kota 80? 70# thrust equals 1 hp, and so you are getting about 1.2 hp at the max. I have comparisons on both the 22 and 25 with Torqeedo 1103 and a 3.5 hp 2 stroke Merc. You are pushing to get that speed with the 3.5 hp Merc...I also have experience with an 80# thrust trolling motor on my Caracal Cat, where I have compared both the Torqeedo and the Merc 3.5--more easily driven hull and cannot get 4.5 with the trolling motor.

The Minn Kota appears to be no longer made.
robhwa...Bob; I'm very curious about your speed results, as I might move to a 25 or TomCat in the future and move the 22 east. I can only speak from personal experience. I'm beginning to wonder if my motor-mounted motor actually is 80 lb thrust, or whether I was overly optimistic about my speeds. When I get out again, I'll do a better test and make sure it is at slack tide. I usually don't troll at full thrust, and only tested speed with the GPS once. My boat is usually very lightly loaded (just me), and the hull is very clean. Yes, Minn Kota doesn't make motor-mounted any more, which is too bad...I like this setup as a backup motor, and it adds little weight to my transom. It also steers with the steering wheel and autopilot.
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kaelc":3adkxby1 said:
The DCS50S looks helpful, and it’s on sale, but do I still need a shore power charger that’s compatible or could I somehow hook my guest charger up to it as well? Did you put the dcs in the battery area near the transom or locate it in the cabin?
robhwa...I do use often use a shore power charger.

So no need for additional alternator protection as long at connect through another battery?
robhwa...Good question...I don't know, but don't have anything but a 70 amp circuit breaker between starting battery and DCS50S. The alternator on the motor doesn't seem to overheat, but I haven't checked.


For this setup you have a regular starting battery, your three way battery switch the dcs then your Battleborns? Would love to troll with an electric motor someday as bullet proof as my Honda 9.9 has been it sure is noisy.
robhwa...No 3 way switch, just a 70 amp circuit breaker/switch.
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robhwa, thanks for the answers. I believe that your trolling motor would be no more than 80#, since it is 24 volts. The 110# +/- are 36 volts.

I can get some precise numbers on my Caracal shortly, since I will be taking it out, and easy to put the Torqeedo on it. The previous numbers were from the LCD on the Torqeedo. (I have the trolling motor removed and the two group 27 batteries it used out of the boat).

Ref damage to alternators on outboards--I have been watching the forums for this, and have not found any reports. The reports are on RV's which often have oversized alternators, such as 200 to 250 amps. That is handled either by restricting the current, or a timer; on 20 minutes off 20 minutes etc. (That is the extra load of the Li battery charging--the alternators still go to start and house batteries.)

I looked last night and tonight for Battle Born Batteries on sale, the best I found was $799 from Inverters Are Us. There are some cheaper batteries--which I might consider on the boat--but I feel best with the Battle Born, from the builder. They have always had an engineer available to answer questions, and if necessary make changes to a BMS for a specific application. (For example, mixing a battery one year old with a new one. as I did).

I urge folks who are looking at LI to go to Will Prowse's U Tube videos.Here is a link comparing batteries. For those who have basic questions, there are some basic video's which Will Prowse had done.
Here are some very basic electrical terms and explanation.
 
kaelc":2g9bmn1l said:
Sorry we really derailed this thread!

Hope we were a little bit helpful on the kicker choice?
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I apologize if it seems the post was derailed, but I was trying to give the original poster "kicker" options that I have gone through with my own CD22. I think all advice concluded that a 9.9 with tilt/trim and electric start kicker is too much transom weight for a CD16. Also, it is unreasonable to expect 10 kts from the 9.9 since it is so much above hull speed but not quite enough to plane. Though popular, I thought a 9.9 was too much weight for my own CD22, weighing the transom down and forcing me to use trim tabs and/or putting a lot of weight on port side and forward to balance. With both gas tanks full for a long trip it was even worse, needing to add weight to the bow to balance the boat. The electric motor solved that problem, with not much additional weight (and weight centered, not to the side) on the transom, and batteries (the main weight of the system) moved forward. Speed and range are the main drawbacks with the electric motors. Adding more and more items that make the package heavier, particularly on the transom, seems to me to be getting away from the main advantages of C-Dory, a light, robust, comfortable, trailerable full-cabin boat.
 
Very helpful insight in all respects. We’ll look for something lower hp and lighter. A 6 hp or so seems appropriate. Had a 4 hp mariner on our Cal 20 sailboat, it seemed overworked at times and wasn’t easy for my wife to start so we were tempted by the electric start & power tilt on the 9.9. But it’s not the right match for the boat. Moving things around might help balance but the transom weight is concerning, already have a 12 gal. fuel tank (and add another 3-6 gal. tank for the kicker) and 60 llb. battery besides the 200 llb. Honda 40 back there. Linking a 6hp kicker with ez steer or something might be luxury enough. Thanks for clarifying some important considerations. And I was interested in the info on electrics anyway, been seeing some around, recently at the Small Boat Exchange in Burlington VT near the boat. Seeing that C-Voyager had a Honda 8hp & 50hp on their 16 got me thinking, but the 9.9 setup would be heavier ( and didn’t he modify his boat to add 2 feet to it?). Again, appreciate the help, cheers
 
JDrew,
I have posted this before, but would like to ensure that you know waht is out there in the 6 HP range.
Tohatsu makes a 4, 5 and 6 hp outboard and all of these are the same, except for the carburetor. The high thrust versions of these are the same, except they have a large diameter, large blade prop, with low pitch. The outboards marketed as high thrust also have a battery charging system added, but this is a kit that can be added to any of the 4, 5 and 6's (see boats.net for schematics and part numbers, for more information). Lastly Tohatsu has sold outboards, rebadged as Nissan, Mercury and Evinrude, again with the only difference being the decal.
The world of outboard manufactures always seems to do things like this, as the 1st 4 stoke outboards that Mercury sold were Yamaha. Honda currently rebadges their line of outboards as Tohatsu.
Yamaha and Suzuke are currrently making this own small outboards.
 
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