san juanderer
New member
I'm reading 1987.
Is this correct ?
thanks
Is this correct ?
thanks
22 Hull change from flat to slight vee, what year ?
- Thread starter san juanderer
- Start date
Teufelshunde
New member
As far as I know that is correct.
For the 1987 and later 22's (Cruiser and Angler models), 1987 was the hull change year.
The 1986 and older 22's, are all Classics, and all pretty much the same, although you will find the pre-1987's often referred to as Anglers, which they are not!
The 1980 through 1986 22's were simply referred to as C-Dory 22's in the sales literature. These have the flat bottom and look like a clothes iron if you turn them upside down and take a look. They perform amazingly well, despite their simplistic appearance.
When the new shallow semi-vee hull design was introduced in 1987, the terms "Cruiser" and "Angler" were added to differentiate the two new cabin designs from each other, and from the older original models.
IMHO, the new internal cabin designs of the Cruiser and Angler starting in 1987 represent greater changes and improvements than the newer hull design, although all the changes are excellent additions, both functionally and aesthetically.
What we do have, however, is a somewhat confused state of affairs over the naming of the models with the following being the case:
All pre-1987 CD-22's are Classics (so named to differentiate them from later models).
1987 and later CD-22's are Cruisers or Anglers, which are different in Cabin vs. Cockpit lengths, internal layout, accommodations, and bulkheads.
Some Anglers (originally re-designed for fishing) have no rear bulkheads, others do. Those equipped with bulkheads can have the bulkhead made of rigid fiberglass, and others may have a bulkhead of removable canvas. All Crusiers have solid rear fiberglass bulkheads.
NOTE: There are a very few "Custom" CD--22's out there which are special order boats, such as a few Cener Console models, one Cruiser which had the Galley removed to be replaced with a bathroom, a few "Commuter" boats that gave up the galley and / or dinette for center facing bench seating, etc., etc. These One-Off's add some confusion to the naming and classifying task.
The above is to the best of my knowledge after over 25 years of CD ownership and participation on the various CD websites and nearly 9000 posts on this one alone.
Joe. :teeth :thup
The 1986 and older 22's, are all Classics, and all pretty much the same, although you will find the pre-1987's often referred to as Anglers, which they are not!
The 1980 through 1986 22's were simply referred to as C-Dory 22's in the sales literature. These have the flat bottom and look like a clothes iron if you turn them upside down and take a look. They perform amazingly well, despite their simplistic appearance.
When the new shallow semi-vee hull design was introduced in 1987, the terms "Cruiser" and "Angler" were added to differentiate the two new cabin designs from each other, and from the older original models.
IMHO, the new internal cabin designs of the Cruiser and Angler starting in 1987 represent greater changes and improvements than the newer hull design, although all the changes are excellent additions, both functionally and aesthetically.
What we do have, however, is a somewhat confused state of affairs over the naming of the models with the following being the case:
All pre-1987 CD-22's are Classics (so named to differentiate them from later models).
1987 and later CD-22's are Cruisers or Anglers, which are different in Cabin vs. Cockpit lengths, internal layout, accommodations, and bulkheads.
Some Anglers (originally re-designed for fishing) have no rear bulkheads, others do. Those equipped with bulkheads can have the bulkhead made of rigid fiberglass, and others may have a bulkhead of removable canvas. All Crusiers have solid rear fiberglass bulkheads.
NOTE: There are a very few "Custom" CD--22's out there which are special order boats, such as a few Cener Console models, one Cruiser which had the Galley removed to be replaced with a bathroom, a few "Commuter" boats that gave up the galley and / or dinette for center facing bench seating, etc., etc. These One-Off's add some confusion to the naming and classifying task.
The above is to the best of my knowledge after over 25 years of CD ownership and participation on the various CD websites and nearly 9000 posts on this one alone.
Joe. :teeth :thup
Unless you like to track such data, what difference does a couple degrees in
dead rise make in the ride? "Good ride" has many factors only one of which
is the hull "V", bow and stern.
A couple degrees increase in essentially a flatfish stern hulled boat would not be
noticeable to most people; me included.
A 'river runner' hull will still be a river runner hull w/in a few degrees of "V"'d
difference. Also, realize more "V" means more fuel burned, less efficiency as
the trade off of an imagined 'better ride'. My take is CD owners like efficiency.
The primary goal of a boat purchaser is not the N'th degree of dead rise in the
hull. Rather, select the primary use of the boat (river, bay, coastal, offshore..)
and then select the appropriate hull design for that purpose.
There's a "V"/length ratio out there for most; just find what's right for you.
Sometimes this takes a lifetime...
Aye.
dead rise make in the ride? "Good ride" has many factors only one of which
is the hull "V", bow and stern.
A couple degrees increase in essentially a flatfish stern hulled boat would not be
noticeable to most people; me included.
A 'river runner' hull will still be a river runner hull w/in a few degrees of "V"'d
difference. Also, realize more "V" means more fuel burned, less efficiency as
the trade off of an imagined 'better ride'. My take is CD owners like efficiency.
The primary goal of a boat purchaser is not the N'th degree of dead rise in the
hull. Rather, select the primary use of the boat (river, bay, coastal, offshore..)
and then select the appropriate hull design for that purpose.
There's a "V"/length ratio out there for most; just find what's right for you.
Sometimes this takes a lifetime...
Aye.
So there’s not any riding or driving difference between the newer design and the old one. Seams like a lot of expense for the factory for no improvement ? I loved my Classic 22’ but couldn’t live with the ride in choppy water and the canoe like steering in following seas... I’ve been debating on another, possible size up to 25’ but if you’re saying these newer designs don’t help I’m not sure
The Classic (pre 1987) is a flat sheet of plywood, with a slight rocker for and aft. There is no variable dears in the bottom until you are way forward.
The post 1986 (modern) has a variable dead rise. Normally quoted is the dead rise measured at the transom. Yacht designers dictate what the dead rise will be at each design station. Thus 10 feet from the bow the new C Dory 22 will have more dead rise than the flat bottom (flat iron Dory). The Variable deadrise will ride better.
Although stern dead rise is a factor in fuel burn so is the weight,, actually hull design (for example steps in a deep V), waterline and ultimate planing beam etc.
Also in the C Dory the trim depending on the operator expertise will make a difference--including the use of trim tabs and Permatrim hydrofoil.
If I was going offshore in heavy weather, I would have an entirely different boat than the C dory. For example the 18' Caracal Cat has a far better ride than an of the C Dory 22's and 25's. I have recently been following a 40' planing aluminum cat with has has superb wide in some really hasty weather, yet is half the cost of a fiberglass boat, and very customizable, plus traliable (with permits). OF course quad 350's does mean a bit more fuel cost--but if you can go 70 mph and go Pensacola Fl to the Bahamas (800 miles) in one day that is a different story!
All 25's (1995&95--2002 to current models ) are of the same hull.
I believe that the early 26 and 27's were also of the same hull configuration (not the Venture 26)
The post 1986 (modern) has a variable dead rise. Normally quoted is the dead rise measured at the transom. Yacht designers dictate what the dead rise will be at each design station. Thus 10 feet from the bow the new C Dory 22 will have more dead rise than the flat bottom (flat iron Dory). The Variable deadrise will ride better.
Although stern dead rise is a factor in fuel burn so is the weight,, actually hull design (for example steps in a deep V), waterline and ultimate planing beam etc.
Also in the C Dory the trim depending on the operator expertise will make a difference--including the use of trim tabs and Permatrim hydrofoil.
If I was going offshore in heavy weather, I would have an entirely different boat than the C dory. For example the 18' Caracal Cat has a far better ride than an of the C Dory 22's and 25's. I have recently been following a 40' planing aluminum cat with has has superb wide in some really hasty weather, yet is half the cost of a fiberglass boat, and very customizable, plus traliable (with permits). OF course quad 350's does mean a bit more fuel cost--but if you can go 70 mph and go Pensacola Fl to the Bahamas (800 miles) in one day that is a different story!
All 25's (1995&95--2002 to current models ) are of the same hull.
I believe that the early 26 and 27's were also of the same hull configuration (not the Venture 26)
Foggy":2xb1f3zs said:
I've ridden in both. It's extremely noticeable to me.
"Different" is the operative word. I can't say one seems better than the other, and would be happy in either. However, the Classics have a noticeably flatter turn whereas the 1987+ tend to carve more. The greater the speed, the more noticeable the difference.
Straight ahead, I agree - one would be hard-pressed to differentiate the ride between the two. Classic to Angler, that is - the Cruiser rides very differently still, but that's likely due to weight difference and balance fore and aft.
Da Nag":3gr1i809 said:
I've read it a few times. I still don't know what you are saying after my comment:
"A couple degrees...would not be noticeable to most people."
Ex:
"...extremely noticeable to me."
"Different"
"I can't say one seems better"
"would be happy in either."
"...hard-pressed to differentiate the ride between the two"
Dead slow is not where to compare ride of different hull shapes. At speed is
where the nautical rubber meets the road.
If you can describe the difference in taste between a $15. Napa cabernet and a
$18. Napa cabernet, I'm all ears.
Aye.
Salmon Fisher
Member
I have owned both.
The ride, on plane, in chop is a lot better in the modern hull 1987 to present. Bow cut through chop better in cruiser when bow was trimmed down.
On plane in the classic I owned, the boat would list to port, probably from prop torque. I consulted with another C Brat prior to buying the classic and he said it would happen. I bought it anyway and the list at speed happened. I didn't like it, nor did my passengers. Had to shift weight to starboard to correct list. No, I didn't install trim tabs, that would have helped.
The cabin noise in the classic had more noise than my 2000 cruiser, too. Probably from the way the plywood was attached to the interior. I tried to dampen it with foam, but I would have had to take it all out to dampen every contact point.
The classic has a more narrow stern and thus is more tippy when one person goes to one side or the other. Didn't like the small space between motor well and gunnel on the classic. Especially when trolling and running downriggers. The cruiser, not as tippy.
Enjoyed the Cruiser much more than the Classic. Fuel capacity on Cruiser, about double than that of the Classic.
The ride, on plane, in chop is a lot better in the modern hull 1987 to present. Bow cut through chop better in cruiser when bow was trimmed down.
On plane in the classic I owned, the boat would list to port, probably from prop torque. I consulted with another C Brat prior to buying the classic and he said it would happen. I bought it anyway and the list at speed happened. I didn't like it, nor did my passengers. Had to shift weight to starboard to correct list. No, I didn't install trim tabs, that would have helped.
The cabin noise in the classic had more noise than my 2000 cruiser, too. Probably from the way the plywood was attached to the interior. I tried to dampen it with foam, but I would have had to take it all out to dampen every contact point.
The classic has a more narrow stern and thus is more tippy when one person goes to one side or the other. Didn't like the small space between motor well and gunnel on the classic. Especially when trolling and running downriggers. The cruiser, not as tippy.
Enjoyed the Cruiser much more than the Classic. Fuel capacity on Cruiser, about double than that of the Classic.
A
Anonymous
Guest
best to take advice from those with experience
Please show me some rational evidence in print that a "couple degrees" in deadrise
in the hull of a small OB powered boat (C-Dory series) makes a "noticeable
difference" in ride. I know the Mfg puts forth claims of such; the Venture series.
I bought one. Claims are not evidence. It's hype to buy their product.
Plus, in a small boat, multiple factors (beam, deadrise, length, weight distribution,
chine design, prop torque, helm handling, etc) go into "the ride". Not simply
pointing out one factor (a couple degrees in deadrise) being "the" factor that
causes a "noticeably difference in the ride".
As a general principle, other things equal, I've held that "length is ride" for a boat
on the water.
Please.
Aye.
in the hull of a small OB powered boat (C-Dory series) makes a "noticeable
difference" in ride. I know the Mfg puts forth claims of such; the Venture series.
I bought one. Claims are not evidence. It's hype to buy their product.
Plus, in a small boat, multiple factors (beam, deadrise, length, weight distribution,
chine design, prop torque, helm handling, etc) go into "the ride". Not simply
pointing out one factor (a couple degrees in deadrise) being "the" factor that
causes a "noticeably difference in the ride".
As a general principle, other things equal, I've held that "length is ride" for a boat
on the water.
Please.
Aye.
I had trim tabs that could take the port list out as needed and adjust the bow as necessary. What I crapped my pants over was when I got the bow down far enough to not get beat to death in chop or following seas was the BOW STEER. Do you think the new design fixes that ?
I even entertained thought of mounting skews on the bottom like the competition water ski boats used to do... I think it would have helped a lot but the trailer would needed modifications too... any thoughts on that ???
I even entertained thought of mounting skews on the bottom like the competition water ski boats used to do... I think it would have helped a lot but the trailer would needed modifications too... any thoughts on that ???
Salmon Fisher
Member
For running into chop, I trimmed bow down and reduced speed. A 2 foot chop and I went no faster than 12-13 mph.
For running with the chop, trim the tabs all the way up, which raises the bow and you're then riding on top of the chop. That also takes the "scares the crap out of you" dreaded bow steering. I know, I've been there. As far as speed is concerned, fast enough to stay on top of the chop.
I found, generally, if there was pounding, I just needed to slow down to make the ride comfortable. I didn't get to the fishing spot fastest, but I also didn't get warn out, either.
Let us know how it goes for you. Love the C Dory soft ride when I got it right.
For running with the chop, trim the tabs all the way up, which raises the bow and you're then riding on top of the chop. That also takes the "scares the crap out of you" dreaded bow steering. I know, I've been there. As far as speed is concerned, fast enough to stay on top of the chop.
I found, generally, if there was pounding, I just needed to slow down to make the ride comfortable. I didn't get to the fishing spot fastest, but I also didn't get warn out, either.
Let us know how it goes for you. Love the C Dory soft ride when I got it right.
Because the bow is quite sharp and the stern is quite flat, in certain situations the boat can settle deeper in the water and tend to bow steer. I notice this most when coming down the back of a wave at an angle to the wave direction. When the bow gets into the trough (with the stern up) the boat can go where it wants to (usually turning more parallel to the trough of the wave). Until the stern bites again, there is not much to be done but wait it out.
Usually in this sort of situation, IME I find that the boat is not going that fast and having the tabs up or down doesn't make that much difference. The best solution is to just slow down.
Usually in this sort of situation, IME I find that the boat is not going that fast and having the tabs up or down doesn't make that much difference. The best solution is to just slow down.