Larry Patrick
New member
Can anyone tell me what shackle or swivel shackle to use on this anchor? Is it necessary to use swivel shackle? Will be using 1/4 inch chain. Want to be sure hardware will slide to retrieve anchor, thanks.
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15 lb manson supreme anchor
- Thread starter Larry Patrick
- Start date
I haven't anchored with the C-Dory yet, but in the past (other boats) I haven't liked nor used swivels. So I won't add one unless for some reason it seems absolutely necessary.
I ordered a 5/16" Crosby red pin shackle for the chain-to-anchor connection with my Manson Supreme 15-pounder. That makes the shackle the weak link in my system (you can't get a high-test shackle to fit 1/4" chain), but it should still be plenty adequate, and it's a good quality shackle. If you have larger chain you may be able to use a different sized (larger) shackle.
Sunbeam
I ordered a 5/16" Crosby red pin shackle for the chain-to-anchor connection with my Manson Supreme 15-pounder. That makes the shackle the weak link in my system (you can't get a high-test shackle to fit 1/4" chain), but it should still be plenty adequate, and it's a good quality shackle. If you have larger chain you may be able to use a different sized (larger) shackle.
Sunbeam
Larry Patrick
New member
Thanks,sounds good will look into these suggestions.
journey on
New member
Just a note. I use a Manson and Danforth in So Cal to set and hold in the kelp and grass we have here. When I'm in the Northwest, I use a Bruce because it sets and holds well in mud.
If you look at the Manson, it's sharp pointed and has a thin blade which is great for digging into kelp. And once it's dug in it holds, but that same point and thin cross section lets it slide through mud. Plow type anchors tend to do that, such as the CQR. I've had to reset a CQR in both mud and sand.
The Bruce/Lewmar Claw is blunt and shaped like a claw (surprise.) That lets it set and hold in mud, but the blunt fingers don't let it dig into kelp/grass.
Actually the Danforth seems to be the best all around anchor. Instead of rotating between the Manson and Bruce, I should just get a another Danforth and use them both fore and aft. My only excuse is that the Bruce came with the boat and I thought I'd be modern and get the Manson.
Note that in the anchor tests I've read, they test the anchor in sand. All anchors set well in sand.
The only swivels that fit the 1/4" HT chain the windlass uses is the small 1/4 kind, rated for ~850# working load, 5:1 margin on breaking load. I get one made in the USA. I use it to unwrap the chain when I'm pulling it up. I don't know how it gets twisted, but it does.
Boris
If you look at the Manson, it's sharp pointed and has a thin blade which is great for digging into kelp. And once it's dug in it holds, but that same point and thin cross section lets it slide through mud. Plow type anchors tend to do that, such as the CQR. I've had to reset a CQR in both mud and sand.
The Bruce/Lewmar Claw is blunt and shaped like a claw (surprise.) That lets it set and hold in mud, but the blunt fingers don't let it dig into kelp/grass.
Actually the Danforth seems to be the best all around anchor. Instead of rotating between the Manson and Bruce, I should just get a another Danforth and use them both fore and aft. My only excuse is that the Bruce came with the boat and I thought I'd be modern and get the Manson.
Note that in the anchor tests I've read, they test the anchor in sand. All anchors set well in sand.
The only swivels that fit the 1/4" HT chain the windlass uses is the small 1/4 kind, rated for ~850# working load, 5:1 margin on breaking load. I get one made in the USA. I use it to unwrap the chain when I'm pulling it up. I don't know how it gets twisted, but it does.
Boris
journey on":1dqxkpn9 said:Actually the Danforth seems to be the best all around anchor.
Depending on what one means by "all around" (i.e. bottom type vs. "living situation" of the boat), I would disagree. Reason being I'm not typically comfortable leaving a boat unattended (by leaving or even sleeping soundly) on a single Danforth. I worry about the anchor not resetting in a tide or wind shift (mud or etc. can get stuck in the flukes/hinge).
I did see you spoke of having two and setting one each forward and aft, but to me being anchored by both bow and stern can't be considered as "all-around," because in many anchorages swinging is necessary (water changes, other boats, various reasons).
There's probably no real "all purpose" anchor, but I would choose something other than a Danforth if I "had" to choose just one for "all around" purposes.
(But please don't take this as me dissing you or your seamanship, because I can tell by your posts that you are an experienced boater and obviously know what you are doing.)
Sunbeam
Some times you have to use two shackles, one to fit the chain, and another to fit the anchor. I did not use the "slide slot"--but might have if there were big rocks, big logs, or cables or chains in the anchorage.
I would use a 5/16 high tensile shackle. There is no way you will break it.
The experience on the East Coast and Gulf Coast has been different than Boris's with the "claw". I have tried in it hurricanes, and it did not penetrate the mud to get into the substrait (sand or clay). The Manson has in my experience. For soft mud, (and a lot depends of the co-hesive behavior of the specific mud--but to get a good set in strong winds, you have to get below the mud layer.) I have had anchors which set well, but would pull out with a huge chunk of mud attatched to the anchor. The Fortress in the 45 degree fluke angle works the best in soft/soupy mud, but then it is allowed to penetrate deeper faster, into the substrait and a better setting material.
An anchor not used often in boats the size of the C Dory is the Super Max--but it has an excellent reputation as an excellent mud anchor, as well as in most other conditions, except the heavy root or ball bearing rocks. For the heavy root grass--a fine fluked fisherman, Luke or Hershoff anchor is best.
I used a Manson Supreme on the C Dory 25, in the fixed slot, in AK for a month and in the Boughtons tirp for 6 weeks and never had a bit of a problem. It works very well in these areas.
Anchoring is an art as much as a science!
I would use a 5/16 high tensile shackle. There is no way you will break it.
The experience on the East Coast and Gulf Coast has been different than Boris's with the "claw". I have tried in it hurricanes, and it did not penetrate the mud to get into the substrait (sand or clay). The Manson has in my experience. For soft mud, (and a lot depends of the co-hesive behavior of the specific mud--but to get a good set in strong winds, you have to get below the mud layer.) I have had anchors which set well, but would pull out with a huge chunk of mud attatched to the anchor. The Fortress in the 45 degree fluke angle works the best in soft/soupy mud, but then it is allowed to penetrate deeper faster, into the substrait and a better setting material.
An anchor not used often in boats the size of the C Dory is the Super Max--but it has an excellent reputation as an excellent mud anchor, as well as in most other conditions, except the heavy root or ball bearing rocks. For the heavy root grass--a fine fluked fisherman, Luke or Hershoff anchor is best.
I used a Manson Supreme on the C Dory 25, in the fixed slot, in AK for a month and in the Boughtons tirp for 6 weeks and never had a bit of a problem. It works very well in these areas.
Anchoring is an art as much as a science!
My experience with the claw in soft mud is similar to Bobs. At the very head of Gut Bay, the 2nd bay south from Red Bluff Bay on Baranof Island, Southeast Alaska I made many attempts to get the 22 # Bruce style/claw to set in soft mud. It would just scoop up a gob in between the side flukes & center point & then drag with no resistance. To find just what was occurring I got into very shallow water between 2 & 3 feet, so I could see what was happening. In all other instances of mud, that had some sand or shells mixed in it held great with a instant 1st attempt set. In places with sea grass & kelp its been difficult to set, but once done never broke free even with current & wind changes, except at Warm Springs Bay, on Baranof Island, Southeast Alaska where I was forced to use limited scope of 3 to 1 with a very hard bottom due to the fishing boats seeking shelter from a passing gale causing over crowding. That time after dragging several times ended up tied up to a unused float plane dock in a very small bay near the entrance to Warm Springs Bay. Tied to the dock instead of anchoring in the small inlet due to the sailboats having the only anchor spots there. I kept the center point of the claw, sharp & that might have helped in eventually getting anchor sets in grass, kelp & hard bottom situations. My experience of dragging in Gut Bay in the mud & difficulty getting a set at other times with kelp, grass or hard bottom are the main reasons I've just switched to the 15 # Manson Supreme.
I've made extended Southeast Alaska cruises with & without a swivel & didn't notice a difference, but now with the very recent purchase of a Lewmar 700H windless & 50 feet of chain & 250 feet of 1/2 inch 8 brait rode a swivel will be used.
Like Bob, I would not attach swivel or shackle to the side slot of the Manson Supreme anchor unless big rocks, big logs, or cables or chains in the anchorage. Thats my understanding of what that side slot is for & think using it is similiar to using the tie wrap brake away systems that have their place, just not for anchoring for the night with a good nights rest in mind.
Jay
I've made extended Southeast Alaska cruises with & without a swivel & didn't notice a difference, but now with the very recent purchase of a Lewmar 700H windless & 50 feet of chain & 250 feet of 1/2 inch 8 brait rode a swivel will be used.
Like Bob, I would not attach swivel or shackle to the side slot of the Manson Supreme anchor unless big rocks, big logs, or cables or chains in the anchorage. Thats my understanding of what that side slot is for & think using it is similiar to using the tie wrap brake away systems that have their place, just not for anchoring for the night with a good nights rest in mind.
Jay
thataway":3vhjfl0w said:I would use a 5/16 high tensile shackle. There is no way you will break it.
I'd be interested in where you've found high-test shackles in 5/16" -- I haven't been able to find them. Crosby makes high-test shackles, but only down to 3/8", sadly, which I don't think will fit through 1/4" chain. That's why I ended up going with a Crosby "red pin" 5/16" non-high-test shackle. It's not as strong as the chain, unfortunately (although probably fine; it just bugs me to introduce a weak link with the shackle).
Sunbeam
journey on
New member
Well, I agree with Bob and Hunkydory in that when you have to penetrate hard clay or mud to get down to something that holds, you need a sharp anchor. And Bob is the expert on the East Coast, since I've only done the ICW and Chesapeake Bay. Though anchoring is experience, rather than art. You have to know what is under you and how to set the anchor.
The mud I found there on the East Coast wasn't hard packed, but soft. Needed to use the washdown to get rid of all the stuff that came up. We had a CQR on our sailboat and it dragged in sand off Rattlesnake Key in Florida where there were a steady set of swells coming in, as well in the Chesapeake, in Deltaville mud when a front came through. Had to get up every few hours, get dressed and reset the anchor. Plows like the CQR are plows. And the Manson is somewhat similar, a thin blade. I tried to use the Manson when we went to the west coast of Vancouver Island, finally changed to the Bruce and everything quieted down.
On the other hand, I tried to use the Bruce in Friday Harbor at Santa Cruz Island and it looked as if we never had anchored before, an opinion that was expressed by several nearby boaters. Went to Pelicans for the night and finally figured out that the Bruce would not dig into the grass or kelp. Also, when we were in Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, we ended up in a small cove with a grass bottom. We were lucky there was no wind that night. So I agree, again, that when you need penetration, use a poiinty anchor. Just a comment, one uses a fore and aft anchor at Santa Cruz Island not for security, but because there are so many boats in each small anchorage, you can't swing. But you better guess how the wind is going to blow that night. Or your aft anchor will become your primary anchor.
So, I feel there are different anchors for different situations. And I still feel the Danforth comes closest to handling most situations. Except for Warm Springs Bay. We used the dock there. And the SOB in the boat next to us ran his motor all night.
Boris
The mud I found there on the East Coast wasn't hard packed, but soft. Needed to use the washdown to get rid of all the stuff that came up. We had a CQR on our sailboat and it dragged in sand off Rattlesnake Key in Florida where there were a steady set of swells coming in, as well in the Chesapeake, in Deltaville mud when a front came through. Had to get up every few hours, get dressed and reset the anchor. Plows like the CQR are plows. And the Manson is somewhat similar, a thin blade. I tried to use the Manson when we went to the west coast of Vancouver Island, finally changed to the Bruce and everything quieted down.
On the other hand, I tried to use the Bruce in Friday Harbor at Santa Cruz Island and it looked as if we never had anchored before, an opinion that was expressed by several nearby boaters. Went to Pelicans for the night and finally figured out that the Bruce would not dig into the grass or kelp. Also, when we were in Georgian Bay, Lake Huron, we ended up in a small cove with a grass bottom. We were lucky there was no wind that night. So I agree, again, that when you need penetration, use a poiinty anchor. Just a comment, one uses a fore and aft anchor at Santa Cruz Island not for security, but because there are so many boats in each small anchorage, you can't swing. But you better guess how the wind is going to blow that night. Or your aft anchor will become your primary anchor.
So, I feel there are different anchors for different situations. And I still feel the Danforth comes closest to handling most situations. Except for Warm Springs Bay. We used the dock there. And the SOB in the boat next to us ran his motor all night.
Boris
Got to kid Boris a little--experience--you can keep doing the same thing wrong over and over again. Hopefully as you learn an art you improve... and master it. Certainly experience (as is science) is important, but I have seen some very experienced boaters who have not been able to anchor successfully--partly because they did not use the right gear, partly because they didn't use enough scope and occasionally I still see someone throw an anchor!
Let me add a little more about what I consider the "art" of anchoring. Yes, part is choosing the correct anchor. But look at the shore line for clues--was there a quarry there (as there was in Frey's harbor? Was there a logging operation (sunken logs and cables in the bottom)? What do the formations on the edges look like (ball bearing anchorage, solid rock, sand)? Can you see grass or kelp? How and where are the other boats lying--and what type of tackle are they using...,or not using? What is the wind now, and how will the surface allow changes later in the day? As the anchor touches the bottom, how does it feel? After you put out 3 to one scope, and pull on the anchor, is it setting? Let back to the 7:1, even if you may lay on shorter scope later. The lest goes on.
Yes, for anchoring you have to know a number of things, including both the bottom type (and that is why occasionally an old lead line with a hollowed out bottom historically "armed" with tallow, some waterproof grease works well in todays world, to sample the bottom.
I cruised full time for over 8 years with a 60 to 70 LB CQR as the primary anchor and it set well 95% of the time. At other times items became impaled on its point--a mason jar, a diaper, a complete Bimini top, tree limbs, and it drug in soft mud, as well brought up chunks of cohesive mud, as it broke free. I had to dive and set on occasion by cutting away the heavy grass roots with a hatchet or machete. I carried the CQR on mostly chain, plus a Danforth (40 to 70 lbs) on 50 feet of chain, plus rode, and a Fisherman 70 lb on the ready--because if one did not set, and we would determine why, another anchor was ready to go. Not practical for the C Dory.
We have found that the Mason Supreme sets well in the sea grass of the Gulf Coast where the CQR would not set well. I don't agree that the Manson Supreme is the same as a plow. It is classified as one of the shovel type along with the Ronca, Spade etc. I try to avoid kelp at the channel Islands, since I have never been secure with a set in Kelp, in my many trips there. I suspect you mean Fry's--not Friday Harbor at Santa Cruz...Fry's is a narrow harbor which in my experience is crowded with 3 to 4 boats. Most of my anchoring--and I have anchored over 1000 nights in Southern Calif. thru the years--was with Danforth Anchors from 1946 thru 1992 when I left.
But in Anchoring we all have our opinions based on our experience..
Let me add a little more about what I consider the "art" of anchoring. Yes, part is choosing the correct anchor. But look at the shore line for clues--was there a quarry there (as there was in Frey's harbor? Was there a logging operation (sunken logs and cables in the bottom)? What do the formations on the edges look like (ball bearing anchorage, solid rock, sand)? Can you see grass or kelp? How and where are the other boats lying--and what type of tackle are they using...,or not using? What is the wind now, and how will the surface allow changes later in the day? As the anchor touches the bottom, how does it feel? After you put out 3 to one scope, and pull on the anchor, is it setting? Let back to the 7:1, even if you may lay on shorter scope later. The lest goes on.
Yes, for anchoring you have to know a number of things, including both the bottom type (and that is why occasionally an old lead line with a hollowed out bottom historically "armed" with tallow, some waterproof grease works well in todays world, to sample the bottom.
I cruised full time for over 8 years with a 60 to 70 LB CQR as the primary anchor and it set well 95% of the time. At other times items became impaled on its point--a mason jar, a diaper, a complete Bimini top, tree limbs, and it drug in soft mud, as well brought up chunks of cohesive mud, as it broke free. I had to dive and set on occasion by cutting away the heavy grass roots with a hatchet or machete. I carried the CQR on mostly chain, plus a Danforth (40 to 70 lbs) on 50 feet of chain, plus rode, and a Fisherman 70 lb on the ready--because if one did not set, and we would determine why, another anchor was ready to go. Not practical for the C Dory.
We have found that the Mason Supreme sets well in the sea grass of the Gulf Coast where the CQR would not set well. I don't agree that the Manson Supreme is the same as a plow. It is classified as one of the shovel type along with the Ronca, Spade etc. I try to avoid kelp at the channel Islands, since I have never been secure with a set in Kelp, in my many trips there. I suspect you mean Fry's--not Friday Harbor at Santa Cruz...Fry's is a narrow harbor which in my experience is crowded with 3 to 4 boats. Most of my anchoring--and I have anchored over 1000 nights in Southern Calif. thru the years--was with Danforth Anchors from 1946 thru 1992 when I left.
But in Anchoring we all have our opinions based on our experience..
The basic difference between the Manson Supreme and the Delta or CQR is difference between a "spade" and a "plow". The plow will divide the substrate and move through it, the spade, compacts the substrate into itself, making it more dense and heavy in front of the direction of pull, less likely to move. (Logic supplied from a old farm kid.)
Manson or Rocna are probably as likely to grip as a Delta or CQR but more likely to hold in equal conditions.
Since there are many on here that are more experienced than I am, my point is made just looking at the physics and logic of the devices.
I have used Bruce, Delta and Danforth. So far my favorite is the Manson, my next anchor. Of what I have used, I like the Delta.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Manson or Rocna are probably as likely to grip as a Delta or CQR but more likely to hold in equal conditions.
Since there are many on here that are more experienced than I am, my point is made just looking at the physics and logic of the devices.
I have used Bruce, Delta and Danforth. So far my favorite is the Manson, my next anchor. Of what I have used, I like the Delta.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Has anyone tried a small float trip line attached to their Manson Supreme anchor? The rock slot is for anchoring in rock or coral, but most of us in the PNW would attach the chain to the small slot. In iffy snaggy bottoms it seems a bit of a chore having to cut the zip tie, undo the shackle from the small slot and then reattach it again to the rock slot. Plus the thought of wind or current shift, would that unset the Manson useing the rock slot? So if a person used a small float trip line, would you attach it to the rock slot or the hoop? Would this endanger fouling the anchor and causing it to not set? Your thoughts?
Martin.
Martin.
I never used the slot in the Manson Supreme, for fear of pulling the anchor if there was a dramatic shift in wind or current.
Trip lines can be used, and I probably would use the hoop. In the several thousand times I have anchored, I have only used trip lines a few times. Once another boat thought it was a mooring float, and of course tripped my anchor. Another time, a commercial boat anchored directly ahead of me, and wound the trip line into his prop. The 3rd time, I did use it to pull the anchor when it was stuck under a rock.
I prefer to use the chain loop slid down the anchor rode, and then pull from the opposite direction. That has worked for me in several occasions. Never lost an anchor.
Trip lines can be used, and I probably would use the hoop. In the several thousand times I have anchored, I have only used trip lines a few times. Once another boat thought it was a mooring float, and of course tripped my anchor. Another time, a commercial boat anchored directly ahead of me, and wound the trip line into his prop. The 3rd time, I did use it to pull the anchor when it was stuck under a rock.
I prefer to use the chain loop slid down the anchor rode, and then pull from the opposite direction. That has worked for me in several occasions. Never lost an anchor.
thataway":obg7pfac said:I never used the slot in the Manson Supreme, for fear of pulling the anchor if there was a dramatic shift in wind or current.
Trip lines can be used, and I probably would use the hoop. In the several thousand times I have anchored, I have only used trip lines a few times. Once another boat thought it was a mooring float, and of course tripped my anchor. Another time, a commercial boat anchored directly ahead of me, and wound the trip line into his prop. The 3rd time, I did use it to pull the anchor when it was stuck under a rock.
I prefer to use the chain loop slid down the anchor rode, and then pull from the opposite direction. That has worked for me in several occasions. Never lost an anchor.
Thanks Bob for the reply. I think the chain loop is the best answer. I do have one stashed away onboard for such an emergency.
Martin.
thataway":vkigslo3 said:I prefer to use the chain loop slid down the anchor rode, and then pull from the opposite direction. That has worked for me in several occasions. Never lost an anchor.
Bob,
Could you please describe in detail the chain loop setup and how it works? I am assuming its not like a chain ring with floating buoy for anchor retrieval.
Thanks,
Grazer
[/quote]
Bob,
Could you please describe in detail the chain loop setup and how it works? I am assuming its not like a chain ring with floating buoy for anchor retrieval.
Thanks,
Grazer[/quote]
Here's my version, but I'm sure Bob is far more articulate than I.
If my anchor is snagged, I make sure the bow is over the anchor and the rode is as vertical as possible. I then take a piece of chain about 12" to 15" long, wrap it once around the rode like a bracelet and then join both ends of the chain together with a shackle or something similar. Attach a line to the "bracelet" and lower it down the rode. The plan is to get it down to the anchor, jiggle it over the shank, and as close to the end of the anchor as possible. Launch your dinghy if it has an outboard, and pull on the line from the opposite direction as if using an ordinary trip line. If no outboard on your dinghy, slacken off the main rode so that you can move the mother boat to an opposite position from where the anchor is stuck. Pull on the "bracelet" line and hope today is your lucky day.
Martin.
Bob,
Could you please describe in detail the chain loop setup and how it works? I am assuming its not like a chain ring with floating buoy for anchor retrieval.
Thanks,
Grazer[/quote]
Here's my version, but I'm sure Bob is far more articulate than I.
If my anchor is snagged, I make sure the bow is over the anchor and the rode is as vertical as possible. I then take a piece of chain about 12" to 15" long, wrap it once around the rode like a bracelet and then join both ends of the chain together with a shackle or something similar. Attach a line to the "bracelet" and lower it down the rode. The plan is to get it down to the anchor, jiggle it over the shank, and as close to the end of the anchor as possible. Launch your dinghy if it has an outboard, and pull on the line from the opposite direction as if using an ordinary trip line. If no outboard on your dinghy, slacken off the main rode so that you can move the mother boat to an opposite position from where the anchor is stuck. Pull on the "bracelet" line and hope today is your lucky day.
Martin.