Why treat CD's like the milk bottle boats

[potter water]

I posted this on one of our members "for sale" posting. but I think it is worth a discussion even if discussed before.

I've never quite figured out why C-Dory boats decrease in price with age, when its just fiberglass, with minimal modifications year to year. I'd think these boats would sell strictly on condition and equipment. A 90's boat well maintained with a low hours motor and good electronics just shouldn't sell much cheaper than a ten year newer boat. In lots of cases, I suspect a 10 year older boat would have more value than one ten years newer. Yet, watching the boats for sale lists, it seems to be that people assume boats get used up like cars, just based on age.

It may be an artifact of how the milk bottle boats DO deteriorate like cars and are more likely to have owners who aren't real care conscious. Also banks like to loan on a one depreciation schedule fits all basis. Too bad to put these unique boats in the same context as Bayliner, etc.

I know that quality sail boats vary widely in price much more relative to care and equipment than on year.
_______________

 

[Casey]

Yes, it would be nice if we could buy our toys (boats, motorhomes, airplanes, motorcycles) and have them APPRECIATE in value but that's not usually the case. There was a time (prior to about 2007) when residential real estate probably had the most likely Guarantee of price appreciation over time; but now, even that's more problematic.

Without going too far out on the economic limb - what we are seeing is actually the erosion of the USD's buying power vis-a-vis: things appear to cost more. As consumer's we see price increases as the logical result of increased wages, costs of manufacturing, distribution, etc. That is an illusion of economics many of the costs (e.g. real wages) are going down, not up.

But back to your question. Good, well manufactured products still depreciate, but they do so at a slower rate than products that are less-well-made (or have lessor reputations). Look at C-Dory's, Crealock sailboats (my Dream), or Mercedes automobiles. These items do not usually appreciate in value ... but their rate of depreciation is slower (flatter...). Bottom-line: GOOD stuff is expensive, but ten/fifteen years 'out a person may very well recover a larger portion of their initial purchase price than if they'd bough some cheaper POS. Because of the erosion of the USD's buying power it may even APPEAR that the seller of a older quality item is recapturing 100% of their initial outlay. We can spin-it any way we want, but the bottom line is that it costs to play, and we must accept that.

As for the actual boat and accessories, yea, it all still has 'value, but it's now ten/fifteen years older, and newer stuff is on the market. You may LOVE that older vessel, but all the 'neat-o 1985/6/7/8 ... 2000/1/2/3, etc electronics are now older, possibly in need of repair, and we all have a newer/neat-o list of stuff we want. (Economists have a BS term ["hedonistic effect..."] to address that phenomenon but it would be boring to get into that here. (Hell, hedonistic effect is boring anywhere...)

My recommendation would be that a seller try to be realistic when coming up with a price for their beloved vessel. If you've got a really Great C-Dory you might be able to depreciated it at about 3%/yr for the HULL. Next comes the trailer. What rate of depreciation will that bring (10%/yr?). Then the engine (10%/yr?). Electronics (10-15%/yr?). It all becomes rather numbing.

Bottomline: GOOD stuff, WELL maintained, will bring you more if and when you decide to sell. In the meantime, get out there and USE it! Let's face it: Life is Expensive.

Best,
Casey&Mary

 

[Kushtaka]

This is a very good thing to realize BEFORE you buy your first.

When I've compared the total cost of a CDory, though,
I've found well equipped 22s go in the low 30s, and less well equipped in the high teens low 20s.

I bought a good 93 with old, simpler electronics, manual down riggers, a good motor and kicker, and a rough galley. I thought I'd get something with some room to improve so I could set it up my way. So far, no regrets.

However, I can say that I don't think the newer boats are more desirable than well maintained older boats with thicker hulls and transoms, and I'd rather get one made in Kent, or before. If only because they seem to me to be more handmade, and that makes me feel better about the boat.

I guess my point is, this observation, if observed before one buys their cdory, will allow those early informed people to do very well in getting their boats. The more who take advantage, the more prices will start to reflect the new economic reality, and the used boat market valuations will shift. As they do, the NADA values will follow. But it will be slow. This thread shining a light on this fact will only expedite the process.

 

[thataway]

Many of the C dorys are selling used for more than the "new" price. This does not take into account inflation. The other factor is the high price of new boats of any sort.

A well cared for hull, ages very well, and should be as good as when it was new. The systems detiorrate. If they are upgraded, then they boat has more value. Certainly a new motor adds considerable value.

In the sailboat market I see many boats selling for twice what the sold for new--again, a well cared for and desirable boat. Many of the older hulls were "overbuilt"--what that means is they are less likely to break up under severe stress than newer boats. And then there are the boats with extensive amounts of carbon fiber, Where keels, and rudders snap off, with loss of lives, and masts break, where the entire crew has to be rescued, often with minimal injury.

Boats as an financial investment--not so good, but as an emotional investment: Priceless.

 

[hardee]

Dr Bob said,

".... Boats as an financial investment--not so good, but as an emotional investment: Priceless."

I like that. I just came back from a meeting with my financial and retirement planning guru. I happened to have my boat there too, as I was on my way to the marina. When he came out to see the boat I could see the $$$ signs in his eyes. When he asked what I was planning on doing with it I told him it was one of my major investments, and it stays. 'nough said.

Right now, it is worth more than dollars. What price can you put on sanity?

The longer I keep it the less expensive (per year) it is. The maintenance is still cheaper that a therapist, a psychiatrist, and a surgeon.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[C-jeep]

Sometimes depreciation works out well for the consumer. Up here in Canada you can import autos duty free if they are 15 years or older. Japan due to their strict and expensive motor-vehicle inspections (shaken inspections) and high depreciation make vehicles worth very little in Japan after six years, and strict environmental-protection regulations make vehicle disposal very expensive. Thus I just picked up a 96 BMW Z3 with 34000kms ( virtually a new car) for $12000. As a dory owner Though I am happy that the boats depreciate very little by comparison.

 

[anchorout]

If you are looking for a used CD22, the assumed depreciation banks assign to the boat, can work for you. The boat I bought would have been sold months before I noticed the for sale ad, except previous potential buyers couldn't find financing. Banks, at least the ones in Florida, just don't see the value in a ten year old boat. Cash sale, and I couldn't be happier.

 

[ssobol]

Some things age just by sitting there and their value decreases as time goes on. For instance, rescue flares that expire next week are worth a lot less than flares that expire in two years. However, if you had to use them tomorrow, both sets should work just fine.

Another example is tires. Now matter how good care you take of them, even if you just leave them on a shelf in your garage. Eventually they will reach a point where they are unusable and worthless even if you never have driven on them.

A fiberglass boat will always receive damage from the elements and usage no matter how well you look after it. Some boats age better than others depending on the care they receive, but all boats start the (hopefully slow) decline to rubbish as soon as they are built.

Actually, If you really look at it, fiberglass is not that great a material to make a boat out of if you really want it to last a long time. Certainly there are some advantages to using it compared to some other materials, but I don't think really long term durability is one of them.

 

[thataway]

I have to disagree with ssobol, about fiberglass as a boat building material. Certainly arguable, but I think it is the best material. Many of the early sailboats are still cruising. For example the 41 foot Bounty II, were first built in 1956. Some of these are still cruising offshore. These boats are close to 60 years old. At one time I owned one of the first production fiberglass boats, a Wizard, built in 1940, and it is still being used daily. Although the fiberglass gel coat does detiorrate with UV light, most of the older boats are painted, and if well built fiberglas does not loose its strength with time. Granted there is blistering, and the "floppy hull syndrome" Many of the older boats have not suffered from these conditions. I can see C Dorys surviving to be 100 years of age--especially with some of the care that current owners give these boats. How many C Dorys have been scrapped since their inception? A very small percent--maybe one or two. Even the boat which was badly damaged in the surf was restored.

Yes steel boats can be more "durable"--but they have the rust and corrosion, plus maintenance problems--and certainly depreciate with age. The oldest steel vessel I know of is the USS Olympia--but she is almost gone--unless someone comes up with over ten million dollars to replace her. I did see one steel boat, which had been battered in a storm, with one side caved in, and the owner, just moved the chainplates, and fuel fills, and continued to sail her. After a circumnavigation, he was gong to rebuild that collapsed side. I know of at least one riveted iron (as distinguished form steel) boat which is over 100 years old. But again, a lot of care has to be taken to maintain these boats. Monel metal boats--a few have been built--several are about the age of the Bounty II fiberglass boats, but have been subject to electrolysis. I have a friend who has a Corten steel boat which is about 60 years old. it has had several holes patched, and regularly has to be sand blasted and painted. Titanium? I am aware of several all titanium boats--expensive--but durable…Aluminum--many issues, but a decent material.

Wood--yes I have seen 100 year old wooden boats--but they have usually been restored a number of times--and basically completely rebuilt. For example the USS constitution over 200 years old, but her hull is 21" thick! I believe she is the oldest commissioned ship capable of moving under her own power in existence. Having grown up on a wooden boat, I think the maintenance is far more than a glass boat. Is a cold molded wood, epoxy encapsulated boat better than fiberglass? I think the fiberglass is more durable, and easier to repair--but that is debatable.

I still vote for good glass construction--not clorox bottles!

 

[lloyds]

I remember reading somewhere about some tests the navy did on some fiberglass from some older hulls and found that over the years the glass actually gained in strength. Might have been an old paper clipping hanging on the wall of Cascade Yachts in Portland.

 

[thataway]

The study I am familiar with is the Mark III 40 foot Coast Guard patrol boat. These were built in the early 1950's, and sections were taken out of the bottom at 10 and 20 years, as well as compared with the initial laminates.

"Coast Guard 40 foot Patrol Boat
An example is the US Coast Guard 40 foot patrol boat that was developed in the early 1950s for law enforcement and search and rescue missions. The boats are 40 feet overall with an 11 foot beam and displace 21,000 pounds. Twin 250 horsepower diesel engines produced a top speed of 22 knots. Single skin FRP construction was reinforced by transverse aluminum frames, a decidedly conservative approach at the time of construction. Laminate schedules consisted of alternating plies of 10 ounce boat cloth and 1 ounce mat at 3/4 inch for the bottom and 3/8 inch for the sides.
In 1962, Owens-Corning Fiberglass and the U.S. Coast Guard tested panels cut from three boats that had been in service 10 years. In 1972, more extensive tests were performed on a larger population of samples taken from CG Hull 40503, shown in Figure 3, which was being retired after 20 years in service. It should be noted that service included duty in an extremely polluted ship channel where contact with sulfuric acid was constant and exposure to extreme temperatures occurred during one fire fighting episode. Total operating hours for the vessel was 11,654. Visual examination of sliced specimens indicated that water or other chemical reactants had not entered the laminate. The comparative physical test data is presented in Table 1.
Table 1 Physical Property Data for 10 Year and 20 Year Tests of USCG Patrol Boat [Owens-Corning Fiberglas, Fiber Glass Marine Laminates,
20 Years of Proven Durability]"

The fist humber in each column is at 10years, the second at 20 years. I did some a clipping as Lloyds noted comparing with the initial laminates.


Tensile Strength
Average psi
5990
6140

Compressive Strength
Average psi
12200
12210


Flexural Strength
Average psi
9410
10850

Shear Strength
Average psi
6560
6146







 

[DuckDogTitus]

my experience and observation of C-Dorys has been the exact opposite of the original post. a brand new c-dory comes with a premium that you pay to have that new boat smell and to be the only person to have owned it. You lose that premium, but then the boat has a limited depreciation, I think.

Mine is an '88. that's a classic by any measurement. I bought it at 25yrs old and the original receipt was still in the boat. I paid $20k for a boat that originally sold I believe for $7500. and you know what? I feel like the previous owner gave me a very fair price and it was worth driving 6hrs to find.

When I see the C-Dory's for sale right now here on this forum, Craigslist, boattrader etc, I feel like mine would sell for what I paid or possibly even a tad more. that's one reason that I feel very good about spending a lot on maintenance.