Water Under Aft Cockpit in 07 Venture

I sent an email to Toland Marine a few days ago asking where I might find a diagram of the stringer/spar layout on the CC23. I thought it might help decide where to cut (or Not cut...) access holes.

...so far, no reply, but I'm hopeful.

If I get anything I'll certainly share it with the 'Group.

Best,
Casey
 
Andywilk3, I just read your post a couple of times. I believe what happened to you was water (fresh or salt) was draining from your bilge area into the area under the cockpit floor thru the 3/16" hole you described in the bilge area. When you drilled up from the bottom the pilot hole of the bit broke into the area under the cockpit floor and drained all the water. I think the balsa cored piece you pulled from your drill bit was from the hull and the foam cored piece was from the cockpit floor. Does this make sense?

On a side note I was thinking about adding some access hatches to my Vberth area like you did in the exact same locations as you. Can you feel them under the mattress when you lay on it?

Simplicity, if you have the fuel tank removed you should properly seal the lag bolt holes and plug. It will only take a little effort and will will have piece of mind. Oversize the holes, fill them with an epoxy paste, let it dry and then drill the holes for the lag bolts. Very easy. Just takes a day dry time to let the epoxy dry.

Take a mallet and sound the cockpit floor to see if you have the support in the center of your floor. I don't think you will. The inspection plates are sold online or West Marine.

Bill
 
Bill- sorry if I sound confused but I am. I drilled one of the more forward tank bolt holes expecting to drop into flotation material or a void. Instead I hit what I think is balsa core(it does appear dry). Am I into the core of the hull or is there a space below this? Do I keep drilling until thru balsa? Thanks again for your help. Alan
 
Alan,

We used a flashlight, and then to verify (we couldn't believe it!), we stuck a piece of paper down to see if it got wet--it did. We got our inspection plates at West Marine. I have noted that Toland's new boat shows a forward inspection plate during construction (Feb.) following our concern about the double hull configuration in January. I know correlation doesn't mean cause and effect, but it was an interesting addition compared to the Cape Cruiser Series.

The area under our V berth appears to be filled with foam. When we pried off one of the plugs on top, we found it appears filled with foam. Are yours just empty?

We used epoxy to build up the sump to be even with the drain hole. When we asked at the shop why the holes here and in the chain locker were above the collection point. They said they're all like that. This also gave us a base to screw the bilge pumps into without penetrating the floor.
 
Hi Bill,
This is one of those threads that begs to be shown with pictures. Can you provide us some of your discovery so we can all have a better understanding of the area you are speaking of and a visual of the "core".
 
Tim & Dave- I haven't looked under the V births yet but there is flotation in the space under the forward access hole . Were any of your lag bolts in balsa or is there a void below the deck on your boat. I think some of the lag bolts on my boat were screwed through the deck into balsa. I'm having a hard time visualizing what the aft looks like below the deck. Is it glass ,balsa core,glass,then a void(with or without flotation) and then glass, core,glass?
I noticed the Tolands added that inspection port also. Probably was cause & effect! Alan
 
Tim & Dave- checked under V births-has flotation as I expected. I think i also will take the pump screws out of sump and build up with epoxy. Alan
 
Hi Allen,

On our 07 Venture 23 (One of the last they built), It is open under the aft deck up to the cabin. We suspect it is also open under the cabin floor (sole).
Our lag bolts just went through about 1/4" of glass and epoxy. I can put my hand through the inspection ports (ours has the spar down the middle), and I guess it is a void about 2-3" deep. We are going to epoxy a 1/2" 2x4 piece of aluminum over each mounting area and thread for short bolts just into the aluminum to hold down the tanks. As you can see, right now, we have a piece of plastic board over the holes and sealed around the sides to lift the tanks onto the spacers we placed under the tanks for corrosion control.

We are going to check out the pressurized water system to look for pressure leaks. This may be what we thought was water coming through the Walis heater exhaust pipe. That is water spraying onto the pipe from the water fitting.
 
Hi Allen,

On our 07 Venture 23 (One of the last they built), It is open under the aft deck up to the cabin. We suspect it is also open under the cabin floor (sole).
Our lag bolts just went through about 1/4" of glass and epoxy. I can put my hand through the inspection ports (ours has the spar down the middle), and I guess it is a void about 2-3" deep. We are going to epoxy a 1/2" 2x4 piece of aluminum over each mounting area and thread for short bolts just into the aluminum to hold down the tanks. As you can see, right now, we have a piece of plastic board over the holes and sealed around the sides to lift the tanks onto the spacers we placed under the tanks for corrosion control.

We are going to check out the pressurized water system to look for pressure leaks. This may be what we thought was water coming through the Walis heater exhaust pipe. That is water spraying onto the pipe from the water fitting.
Code:
 
Bestday - Don't know about the mattress laying flat. I had to make the access hatches in order to snake flexible duct to other side of the V-berth. I bought the boat and immediately started the rehab. The first was the AC system. The cushions seem to be thick enough as to not notice the hatch "bump". The hatches sit up about 1/4". I'll post some pics on Monday when I get back to the shop where the rehab is happening.

I lowered the trailer so the bow is lower than the stern, but just by a little. So the cockpit still drains out of the back. Good idea by somebody to raise the bilge floor elevation to equal the bottom of the drain hole. Will perform that task on Monday.

When I drilled the thru hull the balsa core was dry, just found the water when I penetrated the second level. I originally tried to drain out of the stern by raising the tongue of the trailer. But the water was draining out of the thru hull hole and getting the balsa core wet. So I lowered the tongue and have been doing the towel soak and dry out. I've probably procured 2 gallons this way. I think I'm just about to the end. I'm just wondering where the "second" level kills in to the hull. I've seen no water under the cabinets. If you notice my pics I have the boat stripped down for the rehab, everything is out. I haven't removed the gas tanks yet to see if I have any break in those screw holes. I'm waiting to see if I can soak up all the existing water.
 
Hey Guy's
I own a 2009 23 Venture and I have fixed the water problems you guys are talking about last year. I took pretty detailed pictures during the repairs and have tried to post them for everyone to see on "Recent C-Dory Photo Activity" on the home page. Titled "Pacific Wanderer", 2009 Venture 23 Cockpit Floor Access Hole", 2009 Venture 23 Galley Floor Access Hole and have more subjects yet to show.
I've given it my best try to include the photo's many times, and now feel I've tried all the info I can find.
If anyone can direct me to a simple step by step instructions on how to again post pictures in my album, make up folders and how to post a group of pictures into the folders in my album, I'd be glad to share them with you. I've stumbled along this far.
Also I don't mind talking to anyone personally on the phone, to better communicate if that will help. I live on Vancouver Island in British Columbia and am on a phone service plan that includes free calls to anyone in Norrth America. Send me a personal e-mail and leave me your phone number. After I get the pictures posted it would be easier to walk you through my repairs. I was able to stick a camera under the floors to better show what's under theirand got good views.
I've been a little disappointed with some of the workmanship and construction details completed by Fluid Marine. I'm steadly working my way to getting most of them corrected.
My Wife and I Love our boat, we cruise most of the British Columbia Coast and can see ourselves enjoying "Pacific Wanderer" for a long time to come.
Cheers :D
Ross
 
Alan- My son reminded me that the inside lag bolts (next to the access plate) were in 1/4" fiberglass, but the ones next to the starboard and port sides were in solid (assume balsa) which were routed out and epoxied, then re-drilled and lag bolted.

The cockpit floor runs to the bottom in the aft of the boat at the transom.

Tim and Dave
 
Papillon":1jmqlfja said:
Hi Bill,
This is one of those threads that begs to be shown with pictures. Can you provide us some of your discovery so we can all have a better understanding of the area you are speaking of and a visual of the "core".
Click to expand...

Mike-

I can't imagine why you're having any trouble visualizing all of this, really!

Here, let me help you with one of my quick 'en easy schematic drawings:



nuclear-submarine-2.jpg


Actually, I'm in 100% agreement with you!


Joe. :lol: :thup
 
Finally put some pics in my photo album. Check them out for a better explanation.

Simplicity, the second photo in my photo album will help explain what you are drilling into. If your boat was built like mine then you are drilling into the core of the cockpit floor and haven't hit the void under it, yet. Your explanation of the layers of the cockpit floor and hull are correct except that the core of the cockpit floor is foam not balsa.

There is foam under the v-berth area. The easiest way to check for moisture under the v berth is to remove the plug in the cabin floor that is under the porta potti. You may or may not have foam here. If you have foam remove it with your fingers or a knife. This area is only 2-3" deep. On my boat there was no foam under the plug only around it.

Now that there are photos in my album I will try to explain the build of the cockpit floor again. The rear aprox. foot of the floor (under the fuel tanks) is 1/4" fiberglass. This then changes to a cored floor at the top center hole in photo three of my album. The floor is then 1/4" fiberglass, 1" foam core, 1/8" fiberglass, then void before you hit the top of the hull.

I think I have answered everyones questions. If not please post again and I'll try and answer. I can also post more pics if needed.

I have epoxied over the area I removed under the fuel tanks. I'm now ready to reinstall the fuel tank after I get my transom looked at by professionals.

Bill
 
Bill-

Thanks for the photos and explanation! Very well done.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread, or make light of your problem, just rib Mike a bit and add some entertainment!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Bill,

I understand that you used a holesaw for the 4 1/2" inspection holes.

What did you use for the longer straight cuts (circular saw, router?).

I will go back and read your previous posts; the pic's help. Any thoughts on stringer or spar locations (to avoid)?

Thx,
Casey
 
Casey, I used a circular saw for the straight cuts and a speed saw to connect the corners. My plan was to open up the whole area to dry out the foam below. My boat did not have a spar supporting the cockpit floor. I could have put my hole in the center. It appears that they started putting the spars in after my boat.

No problem Sea Wolf. No insult taken. Humor always helps ease stress.

Ross, anymore photos you could add to help people in the future would be great. To add photos to your album you just click the album actions drop down at the top right of your photo album. Then click add photos. It appears that you have added some photos just not the ones about the cockpit floor. If you can't add photos to the cockpit floor folders try adding photos to your folder and then moving them to a specific folder. Let us know if it works.

Andywilk3, after you sleep on the mattress please let us know if you feel the hatches. I'v seen many people do this modification and I think most say it is fine. I'm thinking about adding the exact same hatches in the exact same location so I'm very interested. On a side note I think you have the worlds only sub in a Venture! I actually thought about doing the same think in that location. I bought the sub but never installed it. Too busy with other mods.

Bill
 
Bestday,
I was looking at your pictures and it would appear from the watermarks that the cockpit had a fair amount of water that was standing in your cockpit area for awhile. The rust marks on what seem to be a fuel filter seems like it was four or five inches deep. I know this has not much to do with your repair but I have noticed that by keeping the cockpit area covered with either a camper top,winter cover or a slanted cover in the summer at times when I am not using the boat. I get no water up under my floor. On our boat the floor is built so the hose from the water tank over to the sink and water heater can pass out of the cabin area and under the cockpit floor to loop around to the starboard side to the water heater and sink. I thought maybe the lazzarette covers leaked and that the caulking sealing the floor in the cockpit area allowed water to enter that area. Since I keep this covered now I don't see any more water in or near the bilge located on the port side near the water tank. I'm not exactly sure but I think the later Ventures had a composite core instead of the balsa. I can look into the area beneath my cockpit floor and see it is at least near the back of the cabin that is not solid but has voids. I do my best to keep my cockpit covered so I have no standing water in that area. Leaving our boat in the water for a week at a time I have never seen so much as a drop of water come out when I pulled my threaded hull drain plug. I wish you all the luck getting to the bottom of your damaged core.
D.D.
 
Hi DD, I see what you are talking about on the fuel filter. Those are rust marks from where I used a tool to tighten the filter. I keep the boat covered on a trailer in my backyard with the drain plug out. So I never get water sitting in my cockpit. But I do get a lot of water in the cockpit when I use the boat. When I go hoopnetting for lobster I rinse down the cockpit after every set of nets (hourly). I also spearfish so saltwater is on the deck. I also take showers in the cockpit. So by use I do get a lot of water in the cockpit that drains overboard via the bilge pump. But these are all normal uses and shouldn't cause water to soak into the core.

Interesting how the water hose was run on your boat. On my 07 Cape Cruiser built boat they ran the water hose inside the cabin under the cabin hallway against the bulkhead.

Everywhere else on my boat that I have cut holes had balsa core. Including the dash, transom, under vberth mattress etc. The only place I have found foam core is in the cockpit floor. I'm not sure what fluid marine used as coring but I believe that Sea Sport is not using any balsa core.

Bill
 
Best Day said:
. . . The only place I have found foam core is in the cockpit floor. . ./quote]

Just to try to keep things clear in my own mind, here is what I think:

The foam used in the 06 and at least some of the 07 Ventures is not really "coring". It's not the equivalent of the balsa used in the construction of the hull and other parts. That balsa coring is structural. The balsa is an integral part of the fiberglass sandwich that forms a hull, bulkhead, or deck.

Foams can also be used as coring material, but the foam encountered under the cockpit sole was blown in after the solid fiberglass sole (the "floor" you stand on) was placed over the hull. Since the hull is concave, and the sole is flat, there is an open area between. Some of our boats have foam more or less filling this void. (The stuff expands when it's blown in and can crack the sole if you get too much in, so it's about impossible to completely fill the void and not wreck something.) I'm guessing it was intended as flotation, rather than true coring. OTOH, maybe it was also intended to stiffen the sole - the builders seem to have experimented with solid bracing pieces, as well.

I don't know, but it's beginning to appear that most if not all of the Cape Cruiser and C-Dory built Ventures, as well as some of the C-Dories with raised cockpit soles, may have been inadequately sealed one way or another leading to wet foam, wet coring, and standing water under the sole. Let's hope Sea Sport gets it right. The good new is: generally these problems are not structural.

I'm dealing with this same issue myself. This thread confirms much of what I surmised from my own hit or miss investigations - I've used several shades of food coloring to eliminate possible leaks from the anchor locker, the water tank, deck fittings, etc. Anyway, this discussion has been really helpful and I now have some confidence that I know what I should do. All I need is money and time.
Click to expand...
 
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