Water leaking out of a couple of small holes in the cockpit.

H

hoorenga

New member
After having moved my 1986, 16' Angler into the garage I thought I noticed a slight puddle of water in back of the cockpit. I wiped it up and went about my work. Today I found a bit more water in the same place so I took my drill and with a small drill bit opened up the old screw holes where the water was coming from. They are about three inches down from the top of the back seat. The back seat is an enclosed area except for the center where the boat drains out the back. Once the holes were opened up, water began to flow freely. I then drilled another hole about two inches from the bottom of the front portion of the enclosed seat area to help drain and more water came out. Right now I'm wondering how far this water intrusion goes and how I can get to the bottom of it? The holes I drilled are on the vertical portion of the seat facing the cabin on the port side. Two near the top of the seat about three inches down and one just about two inches off of the floor.

I don't think the water could have entered from the screw holes as they are too high up and the boat would have to have been nearly submerged or full of water for some time for that to happen. I think that there is just foam under the seats but it is all glassed in. Should I be worrying about water in the hull as well or might it just be limited to the boxed in area under the rear seat?

On closer inspection my suspicion is that because the boat was stored out of doors for a couple of years by the previous owner, water might have pooled in the back of the seat and worked its way down through a couple of small cracks that I can see in the fiberglass where the transom meets the top of the seat. Apparently the weight of the motor stressed the transom a bit and created the cracks. After having drilled the holes I now have about a gallon of water in the cockpit. It looks like the enclosed area beneath the seat on the port side was full of water. I'll have to drill an exploratory hole on the starboard side and see if there is water in that side as well. Crap!
 
Finding stuff like this is always an "ugghh!" moment, and sometimes digging in feels like you are going backwards (i.e. making your boat worse, not better), but then once you resign yourself to that, it goes pretty well.

Actually, what am I saying? You are the one who earlier posted the oh-so-quotable "50% of being able to fix something is having the nerve to open it up for a look." I thought that was great :thup

Anyway, what I was going to ask is can you possibly post photos? I think your theory is plausible, but wouldn't mind "seeing" the problem.

Sunbeam
 
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Thanks for posting the photos. I wasn't familiar with how that area in your 16 was even put together. I get the idea now.

Maybe someone who knows that era 16 will know just what your issue is, but if not, then here are some general suggestions based on having repaired other boats (but not your era 16).

While it's hard to tell without seeing it in person, I see where you got your idea about the transom/bench joint. I also see that that water is brownish. Now that could just be tannin from leaves, or rust from contacting rusty metal; but it could also be "core juice." To backtrack: When you have a largish flat span of fiberglass - especially if it's something that is weight bearing (deck, bench, etc.) - it is often cored. That is, it has a sandwich construction which is what gives it strength. Upper fiberglass skin is tightly bonded to core (wood or foam usually) which is tightly bonded to lower fiberglass skin and, because they can't separate they "can't bend," and you have a stiff deck, bench or what-have-you.

But one potential problem with a cored panel is that if water gets in it can de-bond (skin and core separate from each other), or the core can be compromised (if wood, it can rot). If the panel is properly protected (holes overdrilled and sealed, etc.), then the core is safe and can last just fine for multiple decades. In my experience, C-Dory did not prep the holes at all, and so there is quite a bit of exposed core (I don't know about the current builder, mind you). As an owner, you can go through and "overdrill/fill" the holes to take care of this (if you search "overdrill" you'll probably find references/tutorials here on C-Brats, as it's been spoken of quite a few times).

Okay, so, backing up, I don't know if that bench top is cored, but it might be. The transom is probably cored. I also don't know if the core (if it exists) is compromised. But I think that's a possibility because deteriorating wood core will often leach a brown liquid. The bench could have separated from the transom and water could have entered the core (if it exists) in the top of the bench. I would think the bench might be tabbed (joined with fiberglass strips) to the transom, but it might just be caulked, or....?

On the other hand, it could just be "leaf juice," rust, or etc. in which case... never mind :wink:

If it were me I would be playing detective. First, does the "juice" smell sweet/vinegary/fiberglassy? If so it may be coming from deteriorated core. The bench, how thick is it? If it's ~3/8" or less, it' may be solid fiberglass (no core). If it's ~3/8" or greater, then it's likely cored. Although that said, I have seen boats (not C-Dories specifically) that had panels simply made up of plywood that was gelcoated. I suppose rotting plywood could also produce some brown liquid.

Then that crack/separation at the transom.... I would want to delve into that. If you slip a knife blade in there and pry gently, does it get bigger? Can you poke something curved in further (so you'd be aiming for the bench top) or does it hit hard fiberglass?

If it's just a surface crack you can re-gelcoat or paint once you've repaired it; if it is a bigger problem you will probably want to get in there anyway. What I'm getting at is that you may need to sand/grind a bit of the gelcoat/paint off there so you can see what you have (perhaps after exploring other avenues). Then if you re-posted photos we could comment.

If that transom/bench crack is "nothing," then.... where else could water have gone in? Maybe pour colored water over some different areas and see when you get colored water out, etc.

Sunbeam
 
I would guess that the aft seat boxes are filled with foam to provide flotation if the boat became swamped. The boxes are probably installed after the hull is built.

I would be tempted to cut an access panel into the box to see what's in there. Some of the older foams can absorb water, or water may be just in the box area from aleak higher up.

If putting in an access point, you could use the pie style access ports, and if you want to preserve the look of the boat you could cut the port into the inboard side of the box that is hidden between the two boxes.

If you tap the box itself does it "ring" or does it "thump". Ringing would mean good core, thumping could indicated delamination or rotten core. Fortunately it wouldn't be too difficult to remove the entire assembly and rebuild, but this would be worst case.
 
Matt Gurnsey":1ocef8kz said:
I would guess that the aft seat boxes are filled with foam to provide flotation if the boat became swamped. The boxes are probably installed after the hull is built.

I would be tempted to cut an access panel into the box to see what's in there. Some of the older foams can absorb water, or water may be just in the box area from aleak higher up.
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Good point - I hadn't thought of the foam fill and it sounds likely. That could easily lead to orange water. Another thing to check for when your Sherlock hat is on.
 
This is a 1983 16. Any foam will have water in it at this point. I would be concerned about the transom---however, cracks at the top of a transom can be a hull to deck joint. Not so sure here, since this looks as if glass as wrapped over the top of the transom--the seat should be tabbed into the transom, and no connection. If the transom taps out well, and putting your full weighton the lower leg of the motor, motor trimmed up, and no deflection of the transom-, then the transom is probably OK.

I would hook a shop vac up to these holes, and see how much more water you get out. (seal it with duct tape). Tap it out as suggested, and then if it is dull, go with an inspection plate. I suspect you will find water logged foam inside of the aft seat.
 
Thanks for all the good info. I have to believe that the water source is the crack on the top of the seat where it joins the transom. Unless the boat had been submerged for a while there is no other way that I can see that both of the hollow chambers under the seat could have filled to the top like they did and held the water for so long. I'm going to check further but my hope is that the floor is sealed independently from the two chambers beneath the seat and once I have them drained and the crack sealed, my problm will be solved. Ever hopeful. The way the boat was when I picked it up, rain water would have settled in a pool over the crack and migrated into the under seat chambers. Hopefully that's as far as it got.
 
What do you think of cutting an inspection hole into either compartment
On the inner surface and capping them with some sort of water tight inspection plate? Someone suggested it earlier.
 
Cutting a circular hole, will give you a lot of information--What is unknown is if there is foam in there. If there is saturated foam, you really do want to dry it out, and get rid of that weight.

Very unlikely that there will be compromise of the floor or transom--the aft seats should have been added long after the transom and floor were laminated, and should just be tabbed in.
 
Doesn't need to be watertight either, just cut it up about 2 inches from the deck.

I might even consider cutting a big hole in the top of each one of those and using it for storage, you don't need the flotation.

Charlie
 
I'm liking the idea of cutting a large opening in the top of each side and making a stowage compartment out of it. I would never rest easy as long as they were enclosed and I couldn't at least inspect them some way. This would eliminate the problem all together and give me some extra stowage space as well.
 
I was watching the Sopranos last night. Maybe I should call in the local networks. They might want to be there at the opening.

After we discover that Jimmy Hoffa isn't in there I'm thinking of doing a mod that I wanted an opinion on. I want to make the seats into storage areas. I'm already under water (so to speak) on my spending so expensive hatch covers are out. How's this sound? I was looking at come white nylon cutting boards the other day that are very solid and about the right size to be a lid for the openings. How about if I just use some hinges and make the covers out of the cutting boards? I'm also thinking of making a one inch round hole in the side of each well where it can drain.
 
On second thought, after looking at the area more closely, It seems to make more sense visually to maintain the integrity of the existing bench top and make the hatch openings on the vertical face of the bench. I could still use the same material. I also thought of using bamboo cutting boards as hatch covers. Of course the cutting boards would be useless as cutting boards in a vertical position but the material is extremely durable and should work well for the purpose.
 
There's a material called Starboard which is essentially Plastic lumber and comes in sheets of varying thickness. Both Lowes and Home Depot have it,I think.

Charlie
 
Starboard is rather pricey==your idea of using the cutting boards, which are usually of high density poly ethylene is an excellent one, and what I often use if I don't have Starboard available.

PVC lumber is another option, and more likely to be found at Home Depot etc.

I have no knowledge about any bamboo cutting boards. But they will be laminated, and I would be concerned about some delimitation with UV light and glues.

You have a choice to make the opening on the top or side--both will work well. No reason to spend a lot of money on this improvement. If you want flotation--they you can put some form of inflatable bladder in the boat.
 
Well, here's my big mess. I decided to leave the top of the seat intact and put a hatch over the opening underneath. I settled on just cutting out some marine plywood to fill the rectangular void. I'll install a stainless piano hinge on the top and some sort of catch and latch on the bottom. It will be a simple, flush installation. The interior looked pretty good, no rot or punky spots and it looks like the cockpit floor was sealed prior to the seats going in so I'm fairly comfortable thinking that the water intrusion stopped there. I got a large garbage bag of foam just out of the one side. It was like carving a giant pumpkin. Stab, slice, stab, slice. What a mess. One good note, I got my new C-Dory decals today. The WWW.c-dory.com is getting cut off of the decal though.


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