Water leak in hull- forces winter projects: advice needed

T

trpsurf

New member
C-Brat Nation-
After an amazing year with our 22 Cruiser, we have discovered our first major issue, which forces us into “project mode.”

While coming home from Catalina on Friday, I discovered water seeping through a small hole in the area in the v-berth area under the porta potty. We quickly scapped our plans for the weekend and proceeded to pull the boat out of the water and drag it back home. Parking it in the drive way was no small feat, since the driveway is 9 feet wide and the trailer is 8’. Last year I installed a hitch on the front of my truck. It proved to be the best decision I have ever made.

Looking at the achieves here on the form, it seems like the likely culprit are the screws the brass keel guard. I cut two small holes in the v berth and quickly discovered that the foam is completely saturated. I used a shop vac to suck out about 2 gallons of water in not time. It is still wet under there and I will complete the process over the next week to get as much out as possible.

So here is the game plan:
1. Cut out and install v-berth storage hatches: I ordered the so-pac hatches that others here have used and will cut into the area, remove the foam, and create more storage space. We have been talking about this since we bought the boat and figure now is a great chance to tackle this project. Plus, I figure it will give us access to the inside of the leaking area. I know it is a horrible job, so I am not looking forward to the foam removal.
2. Fix the leak: (questions below).
3. Remodel the interior- I build furniture as a hobby, so I was thinking about additions such as a sliding, front facing seat, storage drawers under dinette seats. All of this will depend on how long the hatch/ leak project takes.
4. Freshen up the cockpit: build a flat floor, install two new bilge pumps, build under gunnel storage shelves.


Questions: Fixing the leaky brass keel protector:
Is it really as simple as removing the screws, filling with 5200, redrilling, and reinstalling? I was thinking that I would put 5200 on the inside as well, after the area has thoroughly dried out. Any lessons learned here would be greatly appreciated.

Should I install a Keel Guard- scrap the brass strip all together, leave the brass strip and install a Keel guard over the strip, or leave the brass strip and forget the Keel Guard? I see that several folks here have opted for the keel guard and have had positive results. Some of those threads are a few years old, so I am wondering how they have held up over time. I just had the bottom painted (since we put it in a slip a couple months back), so I will have to remove current paint and recoat in this area.

Any other recommendations on fixing the leak and protecting against water intrusion would be greatly appreciated.

I thoroughly appreciate all of the help.
Tim
C-Pelican
 
m2cw I dont see the need for keel guard.

for flip side

I would inspect it for wear and amount of protection it has provided minus all of thoughts that it leaks, then decide
 
I've just improved my anchor-locker drain hole, and as preparation for that I read quite a few threads on bow leaks (mine hadn't leaked, as it turns out, but I still wanted to get an idea of the potential issues).

As to the keel strip, I'll be interested to read what people have to say about the keel-guard type strips. Reaction to them seemed to be positive overall, but then I saw one (or more?) cases in the photo albums where it had peeled back off (left the backing, so adhesion wasn't necessarily the problem). It does seem like a better idea than a teeny-tiny brass strip, if you are actually going to be nosing up on beaches, etc. So I would hope the failures were isolated and the cause eliminated (?)

Anyway, why I really replied is to give my thoughts on the holes, if you do go back with the brass strip. Personally, if the holes for it do go all the way through into the boat, then I don't know that I'd plan to just put the strip back with caulking - there doesn't seem to be that much faying surface around the holes. I wonder: If you are going to be making access hatches in the v-berth flat, would you then be able to reach the inside of the stem? If so, a strip or two of fiberglass would be nice, as it would seal the holes off plus give you a bit more "meat" when re-attaching the strip. Another idea is that if the screws seem longer than necessary, perhaps you could fill the holes with thickened epoxy from the outside, and then re-drill shorter holes/use shorter screws (that wouldn't go all the way through) to re-attach it (re-bedding it then too).

I think the access hatches/stowage is a great idea, and it's one I would like to implement as well. Bonus is the accessibility it will give you for your projects. It seems like a bit of roulette as to what will find in there, foam-wise! So far all I have done was take off the inspection-plate cover that's on the sole under the Porta-potti. Well, I tried to loosen it. And tried... and tried :amgry Finally I took a block of wood and placed it in the indent, and then hammered on it. The cover DID come off. Why was it so hard to remove? Because it was foamed in place from below with some sort of expanding foam, rendering it inoperable. (But to the good it was all bone dry.) In fact, I probably will replace the cover as it's got so much foam bonded to it that I don't think I'll ever get it clean. When I knock on the berth flats they sound hollow, but I imagine there must be foam in them too. Guess I'll find out when I finally cut the hatch holes on top of the flats.

I hope you'll keep posting about your renovations; they all sound interesting to me, and especially the interior mods as being done by a furniture builder!

Sunbeam :hot
 
Two years and still looks new. Many beachings on sand and rocky beaches. It is critical to follow the directions very carefully. You get one shot at centering the strip while applying, so work slowly. If you intend to beach your boat, this is the way to go to preserve your gelcoat.
 
PS: Reading back, I see that you aren't sure it's the stem holes that are leaking. You might also want to take a look at the anchor locker drain hole installation (if you haven't already). Of course it may be both that and the stem holes.

It seems there are a couple of potential leak scenarios with the anchor locker drain hole. One is that - since it necessarily exits very near to the locker bottom (or should... ahem... mine was quite a bit high before I fixed it), it goes through the tabbing that bonds the bottom/after bulkhead in place on its way through the hull (which will now appear to be as one with the hull unless you look really closely). The problem comes in if the tabbing was not perfectly mated with the hull (and it's quite common to have little air voids or pockets, especially in areas with compound curves). Those voids can allow water to get past the locker bottom by going "behind" the tabbing, and hence under the v-berth flat. Mine didn't have any void or gap, but I could still see the line where the tabbing and hull mated in the new (lower) hole I made. Just to be on the safe side I coated it with epoxy and built it up slightly with thickened epoxy.

Second, I have heard (but not seen) that some drain holes were actually mis-drilled so that they went partially beneath the locker bottom (!) Naturally that would cause a problem.

I removed the screws for the stem guard and they all dead-ended into fiberglass, but it's an easy thing to check, and I can see where a slightly-too-long screw, or a slightly thinner area in the layup, could cause a hole to go all the way through.

If anyone reads this who did have a problem with their "keel guard" type rubber strip - would you mind elaborating on that and how it was solved? (I can't remember which boats it was.)

Sunbeam :hot
 
Sorry to hear about the problem. I can assure you that it had not occurred when I owned the boat--but could be coming on slowly....

The good news is that there is no balsa core in this forward area, so it will not be anything structural. (I would have kept going to Catalina--but understand your reluctance, considering the time of the year).

Great time to pull the foam out. There may also be some water under the head platform, so you may went to drill into that, and see about suckiing water out of that.

As to 5200--NO. I would pull all of the screws, counter sink the holes, then take a small Dremel bit one of those round ones about 1/8" diameter, and bore into each hole. probe the holes, and see if they go thru. Then I would fill with epoxy. In this case Marine Tex may be easiest. Even if you don't know where the water come in form, I would do that.

I agree I would also check the anchor locker--but since it has not been an issue before, probably not--but you never know.

Keel guard? I don;t use them, and we put boats on the beach a lot more in Florida than in Calif...Is it a good Idea--if you beach the boat frequently--probably.

Enjoy the winter projects.
 
Thanks for all of the great responses. I really value the impact of the community as I troubleshoot these issues.

I have never beached my boat, nor do I really plan to, given that all of my trips are to Catalina and San Clemente islands. I was really thinking of adding a Keel Strip as an added layer of protection and a way to seal the joint. As I think about it, it is probably best to figure out where the leak is coming from (screws vs. anchor dran hole) and assess the situation after I figure that out.

Bob- thanks for the advice on Expoy vs. 5200 for the screw holes. Any brand or type of thickened epoxy that you would recommend?

-Tim
 
I like the keel guard if you are installing on a slick new gel coat hull. If you have to deal with Prepping a previously bottom coated hull,then it's another story. I like the protection if you beach often.Some people even report added fuel economy due to breaking up hydraulic suction I guess.
 
We installed keel guard on both keels of or TC24. It was an easy install. Be sure the guards are warm or they are difficult to manipulate. Also be sure to clean the hull carefully before installation. We never had a problem with adhesion. For us the keel guards allowed to kiss a dock without fear of a mark on the keel. It won't stop structural damage with a full on hit, but for the occasional light touch it kept cosmetic blemishes away. It was also good here in the PNW for coming into shore.
 
trpsurf":2g3qtpys said:
I was really thinking of adding a Keel Strip as an added layer of protection and a way to seal the joint.
Click to expand...

I have had (other) boats that were molded up in halves and then joined with a central seam, but I think the C-Dory hull is laid up as one piece, so no joint. If you are thinking about the screw holes for the brass stem piece, then I would want to fill them with thickened epoxy even if I were adding the keel guard product, although granted, it would then cover the holes (although I think that you could keep the filled holes tidy/small enough to also hide them by reinstalling the brass strip).

Good plan on further sussing first. I found it very simple on my boat to back out the screws from the brass strip (there was not a lot of bedding compound), so if your boat were similar that part would be straightforward.

Sunbeam :hot
 
As I recall, the boats that had the keel strip holes drilled all the way thru the fiberglass were from the 2000+ years. I don't think the old factory, (that built your boat) had that problem.

I would investigate the anchor locker drain first. Perhaps spray some water from a hose into the drain hole from the outside as a wave would and see if it comes out in the under-berth compartment.
 
I would not count on the keel guard on sealing any leaks. MarineTex will work in this case--although I don't recommend it in some situations.
 
For a quick more or less temporary fix you might try "Flex-Seal", that stuff highly advertized on TV. I had some severe leaks at some roof gutter joints and sprayed this stuff inside the gutters. It was a simple easy fix that works.
 
dotnmarty":1ke5yo0w said:
For a quick more or less temporary fix you might try "Flex-Seal", that stuff highly advertized on TV.
Click to expand...

I was curious about what is in this product (always watching for silicone...), so I looked for the MSDS. I'm guessing it's the stuff at "getflexseal.com," but I couldn't find it there and when googling just for the MSDS there seem to be a lot of products with a similar name (unless I'm just confused; entirely possible).

I would worry that this product would not be a long-term below-the-waterline fix, and then wonder if it would make doing a proper fix harder (having to clean it out, etc.). I don't find epoxying to be very difficult - especially in a place where the hardware will cover it up, so no need to make it super pretty (as long as you tape off, work tidily, and keep the epoxy near the holes).

Not that I've never done a temporary fix - but just since the OP now has the winter to do it right, I would still advocate for using epoxy to fill the holes.

Sunbeam
 
Not saying that flex-seal will work in this case, but I just used some on the roof of my porch. Seems that one of the nails thru the shingles was leaking for a while and rotted a 2x2ft section of the plywood on the roof. I used flex-seal in the rain on top of the shingles. No more leak. I mean it went on like tar in a spray can and sealed the leak instantly. Now the wood is drying out and I can wait for spring to do the repair. sprayed it on in the rain and it stuck and sealed in a heart beat. Great stuff for a instant emergency repair.
 
The funny part of the flex seal comment is that it was my wife's first suggestion. As we put it on the trailer, she said, "why not just spray the whole boat with that flex seal stuff... they sealed a car and a boat with a screen door at the bottom. Won't that work here?

Project update:
The hatches showed up today and I plan to start digging out foam on Saturday. Looking at the photos in the archive, I am not super excited about beginning this.

I have continued to suck out water out of the area under the porti potty. we are up to about 5 gallons. I am hoping that once I remove the foam I will start to see stains or other residue that identify where it is coming from.

I have read through all of the threads about foam removal. I am going to try a sawzall blade and other cutting tools, along with sanding the residue.

If you have any other bright ideas, please let me know.
 
trpsurf":1wpb9fqw said:
Should I install a Keel Guard- scrap the brass strip all together, leave the brass strip and install a Keel guard over the strip, or leave the brass strip and forget the Keel Guard?
Click to expand...

I discovered some moisture under my V-berth too. I am planning to conduct similar investigations to the keel stem guard and anchor locker drain. I am of the opinion that after removing the brass stem, redrill/fill holes with epoxy, rebed with 5200 and reinstall the brass guard. I am then planning to install a keel shield guard over the brass to further protect the bottom from bumps and scrapes from beaching. Should the keel guard delaminate at some point in the future it could be removed and the brass will still be in place and usable. Has anyone else done this? Thoughts? Comments?

Grazer
 
I pulled out my foam last winter and tried a lot of the suggestions. I found that a 1.5 inch flat drill bit (proper name??) on a cordless drill motor worked best. I was able to "drill holes" in the foam mass and remove big chucks. I also kept a shop vac going all the time next to the working bit and that reduced the drifting foam.

Chuck
 
Chuck-
Thanks for the idea about the use of the spade bit to get a big chunks of foam.

Once you removed all of the foam, what did you do with the inside area of the hull? Did you paint the inside? Did you put any liner in there to prevent potential hull damage?

Thanks-
Tim
 
Grazer":1h2or6ua said:
I am of the opinion that after removing the brass stem, redrill/fill holes with epoxy, rebed with 5200 and reinstall the brass guard. I am then planning to install a keel shield guard over the brass to further protect the bottom from bumps and scrapes from beaching. Should the keel guard delaminate at some point in the future it could be removed and the brass will still be in place and usable. Has anyone else done this? Thoughts? Comments?
Click to expand...

My thought is, if I were going with the keel guard (rubber strip), I would leave the brass strip off (but fill holes properly as you mention). Here is my thinking: If the keel guard stays on, there is no need for the brass strip. If the keel guard fails, you are going to have some work anyway (cleaning the remnants off, etc.) So after cleaning that up, if you wanted to revert to the brass strip, you could then reinstall it.

I don't like the idea of the brass strip sitting under the keel guard, possibly soaking in salt water (and then continuing to soak/stew inside the keel guard to some extent when the boat is on the trailer), and just..... I don't know, feeling a bit sloppy (to me). Brass is not really an appropriate underwater metal anyway (although it works fine in the exposed location, partly because it gets rinsed and dried every time the boat is on the trailer), so to leave it "stewing" inside there seems like it would hasten deterioration.

The other thing is, although it's quite possible to fill the holes and then reinstall the screws and not have leaks -- if you are going to have the keel guard, why even have the holes/bedding at all?

So if I were installing the keel guard, I would remove the brass strip, fill the holes, and save the strip (off the boat) in case I ever wanted to reinstall it. If and when I reinstalled it, I would re-drill the holes appropriately and bed the strip.

Sunbeam :hot
 
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