VHF Antenna Relocation

C-Biscuit

New member
My VHF and GPS antennas are currently mounted on the port handrail on the topside of the cabin. I'd like to put my new dinghy up there and need to move both antennas. The GPS antenna I plan to put on the inside shelf above the walkway at the fore end of the cabin, but I'm not sure of the next best place for my VHF antenna.

I've seen boats with the antenna on the starboard side just behind the windows and above the sink/stove and that is about the only place I can find for the new stainless steel mount I got at West Marine.

Anyone have any better/cool ideas for where the VHF antenna can go and be effective but out of the way?

Thanks for the advice in advance.
 
Consider above the helm area--you want to keep the GPS and VHF antennas 3 feet apart (theoretically)--I have them closer with no problems. We have our Tom Cat 2 eight foot VHF antennas as far outboard as possiable and foreward. The C Dory 22 had a shorter (36" whip with 2 foot extension)
 
We have two whips mounted pretty far forward on the cabin roof. We can
put an Achilles LT-4 upside down, bow to bow on the roof and it fits
inbetween the antenna mounts. Although it is not easy, I mounted them
so I could lower the antennas from inside the cabin. My thinking is that
if I were anchored because of a lighting storm, dropping the antennas
from inside the boat would be beneficial! I wanted them on the roof
for maximum height. Also, I felt that I mounting them on the cabin
sides would interfere with those going forward.

I used two blocks of starboard as backing blocks - one topside and one in
the cabin for each antenna. I don't know if I needed this much or not, but
I didn't want to see spider cracking after a few seasons.

The heavy duty Shakespeare mounts have worked well. We only had
an antenna fall once, and so I'm willing to believe that the arm might
not have been tight that one time.

If I had a radar arch, I would install the antennas there.

(One whip is an AM/FM)

Oh, if you go this route, drill the hole for the cable over top of the
electrontics shelf. That way, if you ever make a front for the shelf, the
cable entrance will no longer be visible. One of my antennas is done
this way, but the other already had a hole in the cabin roof, so I used
the existing hole. It's not a big deal either way, but I didn't feel like
plugging the 4 holes (one for cable, three for clamshell).

Mike
 
I have an 8' antenna mounted on the starboard sidejust below and in front of the sliding window. I can reach it from the helm by reaching out the window to raise it (in case I forgot to put it up prior to launching. For trailering, it folds down and rests on the starboard side walkway. I have a bow line than runs down each side and terminates in the cockpit with a few feet to spare. When I trailer, I wrap the bow line around the antenna and tie it off on a rod holder in the cockpit. This keeps the antenna nicely in place.
 
Mine is mounted on the starboard side of the cabin, just behind the running light. It's mounted on a 2-way tilt bracket with the L/R tilt locked via a bolt in the verticle position. I can reach the tilt/lock handle from the helm window to lower the antenna either towards the bow or towards the stern. Cable goes thru the side also, just below the running light.
This position is out of the way of my new storage rack above the cabin, it clears the roof of the cabin by about 6".
Pics in my album in the first "untitled" sub album.
 
There are two downsides to a roof mounting:

1) You almost certainly have to remember to lower the antennas
when trailering.

2) When lowered, the antenna extends into the cockpit, which is
moderately annoying if you need to have them down for some
reason. Also, I have blocks that hold the antenna in place when
trailering. See my photo album.

And, I guess if you are planning to cover the roof with a rack, a side
mount is a good idea.

However, I love the look of two antennas on the roof. I would post
a picture, but someone was passing through my boat, slipped, grabbed
ahold of the antenna (AM/FM) and snapped it clean off. I don't know
how he managed to slip on C-Dory non-skid - best guess is he stepped
on the spring cleat. Haven't had a chance to replace it yet.

Does 3' of antenna height make a difference? I don't know. Probably.
You would be increasing the height of the tip on the antenna by
about 25% (3'+8'=11' vs 6'+8' = 14').

Mike
 
mikeporterinmd":39elts0v said:
There are two downsides to a roof mounting:

1) You almost certainly have to remember to lower the antennas
when trailering.

Or when entering a covered slip!

2) When lowered, the antenna extends into the cockpit, which is
moderately annoying if you need to have them down for some
reason. Also, I have blocks that hold the antenna in place when
trailering. See my photo album.

Mine lay down between the roof rail and the bulged up cabin roof top. I added antenna balls to the antenna tips for eye protection when they are laid down and extend into the cockpit.


And, I guess if you are planning to cover the roof with a rack, a side
mount is a good idea.

However, I love the look of two antennas on the roof. I would post
a picture, but someone was passing through my boat, slipped, grabbed
ahold of the antenna (AM/FM) and snapped it clean off. I don't know
how he managed to slip on C-Dory non-skid - best guess is he stepped
on the spring cleat. Haven't had a chance to replace it yet.

Does 3' of antenna height make a difference? I don't know. Probably.
You would be increasing the height of the tip on the antenna by
about 25% (3'+8'=11' vs 6'+8' = 14').

If I remember crrectly, Dr. Bob has said before that antenna height is over-rated, especially considering the powerful and (in some cases) high elevation mounted Coast Guard facilities. A few additional feet yield minimal results.

Mike

Another advantage of mounting the antennas on the roof is that they can be mounted on the forward brow where the mounting bolts won't intrude into the cabin, thus no potential for leaks. The cable leads are brought through the cabin above the windows with gromets and sealing compounds for water tightness.

IM001929.sized.jpg

Joe.
 
The 3' further height will not give much more than a mile of range. I had the 8 foot whip when I first purchased C Pelican. I changed this to a 36" SS base loaded whip--an antenna I have used multiple times at sailboats, and a 2' SS base, which gives a total length of 5 feet, and it does not intrude into the cockpit. The whips is not subject to the braking of the fiberglass antennas on the shorter pilot house 22's.

The CD 25 has the antennas mounted on the cabin side and I don't like it. It makes it more difficult to get foreward around the antennas, and is a bit of a safety hazard. I may move them.
 
thataway":22brx2w7 said:
The 3' further height will not give much more than a mile of range..

Yeah, turns out there are some easy ways to calculate this. But, in
any case, assuming C-Dory to C-Dory, there is a 10% increase by mounting
on the roof. And as you noted, tripping over the antenna on a narrow sidedeck isn't great.

Probably should get some tennis balls or similar like Joe suggested. I
am going to walk into one of these someday.

Mike
 
There are two topics running about VHF antennas. One is about quality, the other location. Hope no one minds if I comment. I learn a lot here about boats but I can't add knowledge to this forum about crossing a bar at ebb tide or how to land a tuna but I've got some background in engineering that might help someone.

Quality does matter. It comes in two forms. The first is the engineering of the antenna, its design. Secondly is the construction of the antenna.

A good design should pay attention to feedline decoupling, material losses, radiation resistance, bandwidth, radiation pattern, desired application, etc. An antenna is a type of electrical circuit, a transducer, composed of the usual circuit elements; resistors, caps, inductors. Some are there by design, some aren't. They're not all discrete but they're there. The ones not there by design cost you. I know you don't want, as a purchaser, to get into all this but I mention it to show you that antennas are actually quite complex. Some of the nastiest math out there is used in antenna design and testing. Companies pass this engineering cost on to the customer.

Good construction means not only it's mechanical strength, stability, resistance to corrosion, etc. but also how much RF current and resulting power is wasted in heating a loading coil (steel vs copper), warming corrosion in a cheap connector or badly built or installed connectors, lossy dielectric materials, etc. These materials and manufacturing costs are...yep, passed on to the customer.

Remember that the field strength that your radio generates at a distant radio's antenna terminals is directly proportional to the current flowing in your antenna. The RF voltage should appear across the feedpoint and not be dropped by an unwanted circuit element. The most current will flow when the antenna is resonant. That is when voltage and current are in phase and when transmitter power is converted to radiation. That radiation appears as a standing wave of voltage and current maxima and minima across the length of the antenna. The antenna feedpoints should appear purely resistive and no power wasted in heat or dielectric losses. And very importantly, the antenna should do the radiating not the coax feedline. Many things conspire to affect that feedpoint impedance and maximum power transfer.

Another issue is how much the radiation pattern is distorted by the antenna coupling into a nearfield conductor; the boats standing rigging, radar arch, other antennas, or even a "rocket launcher". Location can matter. Two antennas (or antenna plus a metal object) too close together will couple, altering the feedpoint impedance, and distorting the radiated pattern. A typical 8 foot marine antenna is composed of two 5/8 wave antennas stacked colinearly with decoupling stubs. While the rule of thumb is maybe five wavelengths of separation you can't do that on a C-Dory but I'd definitely not put two 8 footers anywhere near each other. They are going to like each other a lot and will try and couple.

The change of a foot in height should make zero effective difference but if that foot is decoupling your antenna from some object and changing the shape of a lobe, well then maybe. Now a thirty foot mast, that will matter. I know there are simple formulas for calculating distance (and not so simple ones too) but I'd worry about the things mentioned above first.

A well designed, well made, carefully installed antenna will give better and more consistent results than a big, expensive, but perhaps poorly designed and made one that makes a better dummy load than an antenna. Price and company name can't always indicate performance.
 
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