Using the compass or not?

Another idea that rolls around in my mind is this, how far do you plan on going if you have a systems failure? I mean really? if I lose the gps and the radar and the depth finder all at once, how far would i cruise with out them? Not far. I only need to get to a safe place to tie up or anchor so i can go thru the systems and get them back online. Its not like I would continue to cruise Alaska with out the electronics working. If I cant get it working in a few hours then its a problem that has to be sent to the factory or just replaced and lets face it there is nowhere in the U.S. these days that is not a days travel by air or car from a good sizes town and FedEx. the days of the frontier are gone.

Which leads me to another subject. Reading the water. I fell that I'm very good at reading the water. the water will tell you a lot about what lays below just by looking at it. the shade of color, the texture of the surface, the weed lines and rips. All these things will give you a idea of what the water around you hides in its depths. Now I have boated with out a single piece of electronic for years. mostly on lakes, rivers and some salt but it all applies. I think that learning to run and row rivers has helped me avoid danger in the salt more then anything else. tides and currents show you the same things that a current in a river does.

my first electronics gear was a depth sounder and I can find my way any where with just a sounder and a map. Now having a chart plotter makes it all easier and safer for the beginner but I think doing with out teaches you more in the long run and makes you a better boater.
 
starcrafttom":o25ffovp said:
Another idea that rolls around in my mind is this, how far do you plan on going if you have a systems failure? I mean really? if I lose the gps and the radar and the depth finder all at once, how far would i cruise with out them? Not far.
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And if that happens when it's foggy and the viz is zero or near? That's when you'd better have that chart, a magnetic compass, know where you were when you lost everything else (either by GPS, other means and a DR Plot). BTW Tom, on the land it's a map, on the water it's a chart... :wink:

BTW, you and Susan got a good mention in Jim (TXSD)'s new electronic book about Molly the Boat Cat. I highly recommend this to all BRATS!

Charlie
 
Everyone to his own opinion. I want to get home safely. I guess that some parts of the world don't have lightning--but where I boat, we do have it--and I have seen all of the electronics knocked out (including hand held GPS--unless it was in a faraday cage --which I keep mine in) in an instant.

On the other hand, I have traveled many thousands of miles with DR both in sail and power. (and at C Dory speeds) I used to run to Catalina--and other channel Islands with only a compass and RDF--If you were to find some of the old predicted log racers, you would find that they might be within 30 or so feet of accuracy that GPS gives. Consider the book "We the navigators" by David Lewis. There awareness is key. I also learned this in going to the channel Islands 50 or more years ago. The sea state, wave defraction, seaweed pattern etc.

Granted I will not give up my GPS, Plotters, Radar, I pad etc. But I also want that compass,& chart--with a few ticks of where I was a few minutes ago just in case. They may be outdated, until you loose the other modes. I don't know what the chances of loosing GPS is, but I have lost it in the proximity of naval ships. There have been reports of jamming GPS in small areas. There are reports of some military jamming systems being effective over large areas. Again--not a lot of risks.

But why not learn the skills and have a compass and charts aboard? It might save your bacon!
 
starcrafttom":2fnammz6 said:
Another idea that rolls around in my mind is this, how far do you plan on going if you have a systems failure? I mean really? if I lose the gps and the radar and the depth finder all at once, how far would i cruise with out them? Not far.
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Why ruin a perfectly good trip just because the electronics fail?

My dad wouldn't let me take his boat to Catalina when I was a kid until I could prove to him that I could navigate home from an unknown location on a dark rainy foggy night. Thankfully, he just let me demonstrate my skills on a typical day, but he was adamant. I would say, but it's not like I'm gonna miss the coast. He would say, navigation skills are not necessary when you don't need them. They are, however, when you do -- and at that point, you don't want to be reading Chapmans.

I can't navigate as accurately as my chartplotter -- but I can get close. My best shot -- left MDR on dad's sailboat on the darkest night of my life, 6 hours and 32 miles later found myself entering Two Harbors (between Bird and Ship Rocks) -- right down the middle of the channel. It was almost too perfect. Probably just got lucky. But, avoiding the reef or the rocks was exactly the plan.

This last summer, while enroute to Two Harbors my new Chartplotter froze. No problem, I have a handheld backup. But, that made my paper charts the backup if the handheld crapped out.

A couple summers ago, I was transiting through Mosquito Pass below Roche Harbor. Because I was a newbie in the area with no local knowledge I had the chartplotter zoomed in to avoid the shoals and the submerged rocks. Well, at that resolution I could see that there was water under my boat, but I couldn't see the maze of inlets and bays that make up that portion of the Island. So, after scratching my head and zooming in and out several times, I pulled out the paper chart.

But, I have to say, I am much more comfortable navigating with the electronic equipment with my foundational navigating knowledge that dad drilled into me. And, my boys won't get to take my boat out without first demonstrating that they can get back with nothing more than paper charts, a compass, and a protractor -- while relying on the 6 hp kicker for power.
 
BTW, you and Susan got a good mention in Jim (TXSD)'s new electronic book about Molly the Boat Cat. I highly recommend this to all BRATS!
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anyone know a good slander lawyer??? its all lies and i have not even read it yet.
 
starcrafttom":2ymu18yi said:
BTW, you and Susan got a good mention in Jim (TXSD)'s new electronic book about Molly the Boat Cat. I highly recommend this to all BRATS!
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anyone know a good slander lawyer??? its all lies and i have not even read it yet.
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Don't blame you, it must be a lie cause he said, about you and Susan taking them out on the Susan E before they bought Wild Blue...

"Tom made it a very pleasant experience for us"

Apologies to Jim Bathurst, only trying to promote the book!

You ought to read it, it's a good story, kinda like the longest post Jim TXSD ever made but without pictures... :sad
 
Would be interesting to see the results of a poll among the c-brats on their present day value of knowing well the use of paper charts and magnetic compass to navigate. Believe thous with a sail boating background and especially the ones raised in that environment would hold their value much higher than us who have come to boating later in life or have primarily power boated using the gps and electronic charts with varying degrees of knowledge from the past of maps, paper charts and the magnetic compass. Could it be possible some of the arguments for there continued high importance as a back up is more about the lifetime of knowledge gained in their use not now wanting to be determined useless than the actual odds of putting this knowledge to use in the C-Dory boating world of today with a good gps chart plotter and at least two back ups aboard with one being handheld and battery operated.

I prefer to have two gps chart plotters turned on at the same time one showing the big view and the other the close up. Also the smaller one a Garmin 276C has its power connected to the boats battery and also has its own battery backup if power is lost. Have two more handhelds and the notebook computer with Nobeltec if the first two should fail. And yes I see how this could be considered overkill, but after losing computer and handhelds in the past and having problems in 2007 with the computer Nobeltec software and the Garmin 276C freezing up believe the number of gps backups should only be limited by lack of funds. Maybe this is why I too have not yet got rid of the Magnetic Compass. Its not that I don't see the value in paper charts and the magnetic compass if the gps and its back ups should fail its more the odds of it happening being so low and other concerns in the areas we cruise so much higher that it ranks very low on my "should do something about this list". Feel time can be much better spent further educating myself about the future places I plan on exploring and being more knowledgeable about all the electronic and other systems aboard the boat and sharing this with Jo-Lee.

Jay
 
I guess it somewhat depends how you use your boat, on which way you come down on this discussion. I cross Lake Superior several times a year, lose sight of land, am more than 25 miles from any landfall, and have GPS, backup GPS, and backup to my backup GPS. Radar and depth sounder round out the electronic bells and whistles. I cross busy upbound and downbound shipping lanes in the process, and fog is often encountered. But, I know how fast my CD runs at 500 rpm intervals, and plot my location at 30 minute intervals, just in case the power goes out, lightening strikes, and a radiation storm hits. My compass and Casio have never failed. I just feel better knowing that I might be able to minimize the time I spend in 39 degree water, should something happen and I end up abandoning ship. It's not rocket-science, and I feel better having analog soutions to my digital location. I want to die warm and dry, and will use everything in my nav bag to do so. It is also a source of real gratification to know that I can get where I want to go using only the non-power tools in front of me. Those electrons flying around in my GPs are just too elusive.
 
Hi,
For me paper charts for a new cruising area allow you to see a bigger picture of the overall picture. Paper charts have allowed me to call fellow cruisers for recommended routes while talking via cell phone with both of us looking at paper charts. I to involve my wife with her keeping an eye on a paper chart while I set waypoints and use the GPS's to get to destinations. I don't use them much but I do carry a hand held bearing compass and parallel rulers and the like. Nice to have a non electronic backup at least for me. Guys that sailed for years always told me always carry a paper chart for the areas you are in. I heed their advice since I have respect for their time on the water. Since everything else they suggested seemed to have been good common sense ideas I figure there must be something to it. I have two mounted GPS units. I guess a handheld is also in order. Everyone has there own way of doing things. For us two heads are better than one and it keeps my wife's head in the game.
D.D.
 
Tom, on the land it's a map, on the water it's a chart...
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squids..always making thing complicated. a chart is a map of the water so its a map. no matter what you call it it will get you home... or should if you know how which is what we are talking about.

the point I was making is that i would not need to cut a trip short because I could make it to a port with my hand held marine issue compass and a MAP. then order parts or replacement unit , have it fed ex'ed then continue on. Now all this is based on my use in my area, the pacific north west where i never get more then 10 mile from land. cruising over open water to Hawaii is a whole differant matter.
 
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