Using the compass or not?

marco422":uxejgzfz said:
I have had my position start jumping around before and have had the same happen with my handheld. I have assumed this was a "feature" of GPS. Do others experience this as well?
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I finally called Garmin about this problem with my GPSMAP 545s and they assured me it was probably a software update problem. Despite my doubts, I updated the software from version 4.3 to 5.5. I have been for one test run and the problem seems to have disappeared.
 
old post being dredged up but I did not see one thing addressed. How many folks know how to use a compass and map??? I have not done so in a few years but do know how. Most dont and some how fell better that they have a back up map and compass on board. why? if you cant use it ? and as I always remind people , can you wife use a compass?? Susan needs to be trained on this more and I need a refreasher too. so look up from the computer and ask you wife/ other half if they can use a map and compass to A) find where they are and B) figure out how to get home.

on edit: if you lose the gps in the fog how are you going to figure out where you are?
 
Well if my fixed mount GPS goes out, I revert to my handheld GPS. If that goes out, I revert to the GPS on my phone with the Navionics maps stored in memory. If none of the 3 of them work, I assume that we've been attacked by either the Russians or the Chinese and I keep on fishing until I die of radiation poisoning. In any case, I don't need paper charts or a compass.
 
We have seen folks lost with $5000 and up of nav gear on board. Never leave home without your chart, compass and time peice and a little common sense.
 
The recent NC Gathering was just beyond the area covered by the chip in my GPS. I wasn't about to buy a new $140 chip for a weekend. A compass and chart worked fine for the short little cruise I did. I ended up going on the long cruise with someone else just to try out a 22 since I hadn't been on one, but I would have been completely comfortable with just a chart and compass.
 
Also, I like to have paper charts along because they help give me the big picture at the same time the chartplotter is giving me the the details.

Warren
 
If you can't see two identifiable things on shore to get bearings, how are you going to figure out where you are WITH a compass and a map??
starcrafttom":1xzv7exs said:
on edit: if you lose the gps in the fog how are you going to figure out where you are?
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If you, as every good sailor should, have plotted your last known good position (taken from a visual sighting, GPS or other means) on a chart near the helm, and have DR'd (Dead Reckoned) your current position from that (by plotting course lines with lengths that correspond to the speed you were going and all the course changes you have made), you have the best position you can possibly get after the fog sets in, without using Radar, Loran or RDF. If you have a depth sounder, you at least can approximate things from the depth you are in, if of course, you have said paper chart with depth contours on it.

If you don't have a chart, you are SOL.

Charlie

Charlie
 
Did I get the right information, that anytime you are running in Canadian waters you're required to have paper charts onboard? :roll: Can't remember for sure! Jim
 
If you leave the dock without compass, charts, dividers, parallel rule, and the basic ablities to use them, it won't make any difference how many chartplotters and backups you have when all else fails. If you are a responsible boater, you will use "all available means" to complete a safe trip. Situational awareness goes beyond the PS. IMHO, it is heresy to not be current in the use of basic nav equipment should all else fail. I'm not a Luddite, just believe in safe boating.
 
Our last C-Dory had a rather nice compass and I kept tract of variation and deviation. I was a member of the Power Squadron and they had navigation contests each year. The last year we competed we actually won. The other boats were larger a more stable in the rough Chesapeake chop.

I can navigate but my crew was a lot smarter than me. All I did was steer the boat on the course they wanted and at the speed we planned.

The compass was mounted above the V-Berth entrance.Standing in the isle gave me a good view and good sight lines. Bearings were taken with a hand bearing compass.

My next C-Dory will have a compass. For general cruising I used chart books as a back up for the GPS and to set way points.
 
How many can determine their position to with +/- 20-30' using a compass and just a chart? How many can do that with a GPS? (answers = none, everyone) If you have a functioning GPS with good charts loaded in memory AND a backup that runs off of batteries with the same the only reason for needing a compass is so you can tell what direction you're pointing when you're not moving or are moving very slowly. As for paper charts, I don't need 'em. Paper charts are most useful on my coffee table at home when I'm planning a trip.

I know I won't win this argument with everyone but modern day technology has made paper charts obsolete. GPS is WAY better especially when one is in a tight passage way and really need to know one's position relative to shoals or rocky areas. The key is to have redundancy built into all systems so that there are no single point failures that can cause you problems.
 
Roger, I absolutely agree that one should not depend on any navigation system with a single point of failure. That is why I do not put all my eggs in the GPS basket. My gps chartplotter is reliable as is my handheld gps but both are paperweights if the gps satellite data is gone. That is a single point of failure hence my paper charts and compass.
 
No - it's not a single point of failure. You only need 3 satellites to get a decent position and a typical lock situations is that you are receiving 6 or more at a time. I'm receiving 11 satellites right now on my phone in my bedroom.

As I said before if the entire GPS satellite system goes down, it's likely an indication of an attack from Russia or China and getting home is probably the least of my worries. It's more likely that either you or I will have both Honda 40's fail before the world wide GPS system will go down - yet I don't see any advocating that we put oar locks on our boats and carry 2-3 days of food so we can row back from 20 miles out.
 
roger i agree that two separate gps systems have very little chance of failing at once. the idea of the whole satellite system going down is down right silly. but I still carry a compass and map. I have no doubt that my gps will only fail in area of no cell phone signal. :wink:

I think more then half of the boat owners out there cant run their gps's past the first window and I beat if you walked a marina and ask 10 questions about plotting a course or reading a map 90% would fail ( including me).

I taught land nav in the corps a long time ago and was amazed how many people just did not get it or could not do it. I would need a refresher for land nav to and think i will give my self one soon.

I started to teach Susan one day on the water and by the time I explain the first part we were past where we were going. a lot easier to learn at a slow speed.
 
I'm with Roger. Dead reckoning with compass and paper charts is truly obsolete and of mainly historical interest any more - a good GPS chartplotter with good electronic charts and a backup battery powered handheld are what you need.

At sailboat speeds, you might have a chance of knowing where you are with dead reckoning using speed, time and distance and plotting every course change with a rule on the chart. But (A) at C-Dory speeds, this is pretty much impossible (especially at your speed, Tom - I have seen you charging by many times :lol:), (B) if the chain of plots gets broken, even once, and you can't re-establish current position from two known points on land, you are SOL, and (C) I don't care how good you are with dead reckoning, you are just making a wild ass guess and hoping for the best as to exactly where that rock on the chart really is, dead reckoning just is not accurate enough even when you are really good at it.

Patty and I took the Power Squadron course, which had a good introduction to compasses, paper charts, dividers, rules and dead reckoning. We could see how, if you were going from some departure point to some destination, real slow, you might be able to do this, especially in the days before GPS, when you really had to.

We like the paper charts (mainly chartbooks, not individual paper charts) for trip planning, and have them on board and frequently open while cruising, mainly for the "big picture" - the GPS tells us where we are and where the rocks and shoals are, the paper charts help us decide which way to go.


rogerbum":2o06ddaf said:
How many can determine their position to with +/- 20-30' using a compass and just a chart? How many can do that with a GPS? (answers = none, everyone) If you have a functioning GPS with good charts loaded in memory AND a backup that runs off of batteries with the same the only reason for needing a compass is so you can tell what direction you're pointing when you're not moving or are moving very slowly. As for paper charts, I don't need 'em. Paper charts are most useful on my coffee table at home when I'm planning a trip.

I know I won't win this argument with everyone but modern day technology has made paper charts obsolete. GPS is WAY better especially when one is in a tight passage way and really need to know one's position relative to shoals or rocky areas. The key is to have redundancy built into all systems so that there are no single point failures that can cause you problems.
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I agree that this is a discussion that cannot be "won". As is often the case it can truly be settled only with mutual respect and an agreement to peacefully disagree.
 
I'll freely admit not being good enough at navigating with compass and paper charts to feel safely capable of going much of the near 6000 miles we have explored in Southeast Alaska. Got into this boating thing to late in life to add the must know really well "navigating with compass and paper charts" to all the other things that one should know. Oh, I've had experience years ago getting about in the dark with a map and compass and in ground school with airplanes, but Without the GPS and electronic charts I would never have attempted the cruises we have successively made. I do believe in redundancy. Especially with the Wallas. Have been convinced if the primary heat and cooking source is the Wallas stove then the Buddy Heater and Coleman stove is high on the list of important back ups :lol: . After it to name a few, separate motors, fuel tanks and batteries, three anchors with plenty of extra rode and connectors, spare props and or in our case spare blades for the props and on top of the list, the three extra gps's aboard. In fact if having to choose between one spare gps and the radar there wouldn't be a radar on board. Not all that much boat traffic in our preferred cruising areas but lots of rocks and shoals.

Like Pat and many others we prefer charts in the form of cruise books and the large plastic overlayed variety to see the big picture on a cruise and at home for planning. To me there is way to many other more important things for Jo-Lee and I to spend our time on in preparation for the next big cruise then teaching her or refreshing myself on chart and compass navigation and I think the same could be said for those who are still in the dream and plan stage about that big adventure in the future.

Yep Roger, I agree with the compass and charts being outdated technology and though I've removed it from the dash and replaced with another gps electronic chart still carry it among the spares. As yet still can't leave it home or throw away though this spring it just might be left behind for the first time.
 
This is an interesting discussion. I am in the electronic charting camp, but we always carry paper charts of the areas we cruise in. "Big picture" viewing is easier for us on paper, close in navigating is done with the electronics and eyeballs out the windshield. On our boat, the first mate always has the paper charts on her lap or beside her when we are in new areas. I thought she might really like the ease and convenience of the iPad with electronic charts, but some habits/techniques are not easily converted. :wink:

Of course, the electronic stuff is only as accurate as the chart information. I've heard many folks say, "The GPS is WAY OFF - it shows me on land when we're on the water. I thought it would be more accurate than that." It IS accurate, but the charting data may have come from very dated sources... i.e., the lat/lon is right on, but the positioning on the "chart" isn't.

I whole-heartedly agree that for close-in work, the electronics are better for positioning, BUT it's important to know the direction you are supposed to be heading. For that reason, I don't use our auto-pilot to go from waypoint to waypoint, but use it as an assist in holding course.

As a former pilot, most of my flying was IFR, even in clear weather. Trust the electronics, but have the paper charts available. Same thing with long distance driving: would you go from coast to coast without a map, using only the GPS? I like to have that overview to check that where the GPS is taking me is the best routing for MY needs.

The first mate and I can both plot, but even if set and drift don't vary, navigation is more accurate with electronics. You can be in either camp, but it doesn't hurt to be in BOTH.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
An addendum to our 2004 post about carrying a hand-held compass and paper charts.

We still carry the hand-held compass, and a hand held GPS. But now we also carry Navionics charts for the area where we are cruising -- in our iPhone. The iPhone has a built-in GPS that locates us on the charts in the iPhone.

We cruised with the iPhone charts and GPS this summer along the north shore of Lake Superior and in Voyageurs National Park (as tough an area to navigate as we have yet cruised) - and it worked fine. So another option is now available, with an independent electrical system (if the primary chartplotter fails).
 
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