twin 40's question, maybe a dumb question

G

Gregw

New member
Is it possible to mount twin 40's on a CD22 far enough apart to fit a swim ladder in between? I'm guessing there would be a steering control rod that you would have to step over?

I will be single-handing the great loop and would like as much motor control as possible. So I thought if I could separate the motors, even with a custom bracket system, that would allow using the motors to steer in awkward places.
 
Between - probably not.

To the side - it's been done. The step is slightly smaller than stock, but works just fine.

Img0497.sized.jpg

Use the search, enter swim step for the terms, and DaveS for the author - you'll see plenty of posts on the above.
 
As to the other portion of your comment/concerns e.g. single handling a CD 22 with twins - that's easily done with the standard mounting. Adding a bracket to get the engines a little farther apart seems like a very expensive solution to a non-problem. Many of us single hand our twin equipped CD 22s frequently and I'd bet none of use ever had a desired to have the engines farther apart to improve maneuvering. The only time things can get a bit tricky is approaching a dock in a cross wind that takes you off the dock - these boats have a fair amount of windage and not much boat in the water so they blow off the dock quickly.

For me the key to single handing the boat has been to always have a stern and bow line hanging into the cockpit so I can ALWAYS exit with one in each hand. I have a 50' line tied of at it's center on the bow cleat with 1/2 running down each side and a 20' line tied on each stern cleat. I set them up so that they drop into the cockpit just near the steps so that when I get to the dock, I can jump out with both ends of the boat under control. That and some good fenders and you've got nothing to worry about. In a strong cross wind, you just have to be a little aggressive about putting the boat in tight to the dock and a little faster than normal. Give a quick burst of reverse to slow it to zero, and jump out in a hurry. It's very manageable that way.

The other thing that can come in handy when docking to starboard is to have a 10-12' line tied off to the midship cleat. Depending on the dock, I can often reach out the window from the helm and loop that line over a dock cleat (I've also done it from the cockpit), Then with a little forward momentum, the boat will pull right into the dock. I then put the boat in gear to hold it tight and secure the bow and stern. Either of the above techniques work fine and either are only necessary in high cross winds.
 
Following up on Roger's comment- I keep a fish gaff at the helm. It gives me an extra 2 feet of reach out the window and the hook grabs the dock cleat. Saved me lots of trouble.
 
I have a single but i do have a few tips on docking.
1) practice. No really just go out for the day at your local ramp and just practice up wind and down wind approaches.
2) I did have my ropes like rogers but I have recently changed to two ropes that are tied to the mid-ship points. I never really ran a line from the bow to a cleat so why have the rope at the bow at all.
3) cut your bow or mid-ship lines so they will not reach your motor if you drop it in the water or it starts dragging.
4) PRACTICE.
5) place tie downs of some sort to hold your lines when not in use. I have 4 plastic line holder. 2 at the back of the cabin, one to a side and two more in the motor well.
6) practice.
7) the flat bottom c-dory will dock better in reverse when the wind is blowing then going forward so PRACTICE THAT TO.
8) get a steering knob
9)once you learn to dock well teach the wife to do the same.( or get some one else to do it)
10) have her practice.
 
starcrafttom":3orqnl7x said:
I have a single but i do have a few tips on docking.
...
9)once you learn to dock well teach the wife to do the same.( or get some one else to do it)
10) have her practice.
Click to expand...

And then there's those of us who's wife was a semi-professional water skier and grew up on a lake and drove a boat long before her first car. I swear every time she brings the boat into the dock I'm think she's going too fast, then she "slams" it into reverse, spins the wheel and tucks the boat into the dock nice and neat. I only get to drive when she's not on board and then I use the bump and ouch method of docking.

Cheers,
Tom
 
I ditto what Tom, et all, have suggested.

To keep your lines clear in the cockpit, may I suggest using
the sailor's favorite HARKEN, Cam-Matic Cleats [approx. $29ea at WM].

You may see these cleats mounted on Sea Angel's pixs under
modifications. I use different color line for the bow[1/2" gold] and
breast line[ 3/8" blue] to set them apart when I'm in a hurry.

Art
 
Thanks for all the replies! I have read several of the twin vs single discussions and know there is no single right answer. I did read several times that having the twins right next to each other did not give you full advantage of opposing motor direction. So I thought if you could get them as far apart as possible I could maneuver better in close quarters and still fit a full sized swim step in between. (I have a Machinist friend who can make any type of ss bracket just for material cost) This is just something I was thinking about.

My experience is with a single engine runabout type boat and I'm definitely in the same camp as Tom with the bump and touch method of docking, especially in windy conditions! :mrgreen: I've only test driven a CD22 once at Welfings, an am concerned about single handing. (Great folks by the way)

I take it from your comments that having twin engines does not play that big a part of your single hand docking methods. It's more a combination of well placed / ready to go docking lines, working through the helm window where needed and something called PRACTICE. Can you use the gaff through the helm window for locking through?

BTW great set of modifications Art, a tinkerer at heart. :thup
 
Although I don't single hand all that much, I do regularly and find that control with a single outboard is fine (a lot better than many inboards or I/O's I have owned).

Agree that practice is the key--I personally don't see that much advantage of twins in this size boat--as far as handling--I am sure that you have seen all of the other arguements for singles with a kicker, but one is that a kicker can be hand started very easily. Sure I have hand started 40 hp engines 50 years ago--when there was no other choice--but I prefer the single engine.

You will probably have the boat fairly well loaded if you do the loop--and so weight is a factor.

Be sure and stop at "Camp Thataway"--we are about 12 miles off the ICW--but its worth the drive up Perdido Bay. Be sure and keep a blog going on the trip.
 
Gregw":18ru8pli said:
Can you use the gaff through the helm window for locking through?

:thup
Click to expand...

Here in Seattle there is a small lock and a big lock. No way could you use it on the big lock, where, if you are up against the wall, you need a 50 foot line. In the small one, where the wall floats up and down with the water level, I suppose one could, although I haven't. Hey, it's a tool, and it isn't duct tape!
 
thataway":qfyik3o0 said:
Although I don't single hand all that much, I do regularly and find that control with a single outboard is fine (a lot better than many inboards or I/O's I have owned).

Agree that practice is the key--I personally don't see that much advantage of twins in this size boat--as far as handling--I am sure that you have seen all of the other arguments for singles with a kicker, but one is that a kicker can be hand started very easily. Sure I have hand started 40 hp engines 50 years ago--when there was no other choice--but I prefer the single engine.

You will probably have the boat fairly well loaded if you do the loop--and so weight is a factor.

Be sure and stop at "Camp Thataway"--we are about 12 miles off the ICW--but its worth the drive up Perdido Bay. Be sure and keep a blog going on the trip.
Click to expand...

If there is no real advantage in handling with twins, then I think I would go with a single and Kicker. The 4 strokes have become very reliable and the biggest issue I have seen is fuel quality, or just water in the fuel. So unless you have a separate fuel tank for each 40, both motors will have the same fuel problem. With a kicker, the fuel is separate. Weight is also an issue on the 22, from what I have read, the original boat was not designed for the weight of a modern 90hp 4 stroke (and fuel) that is why the 22 rides a little low in the back and benefits so much from trim tabs. Thats why on Ben Toland's latest boat design, the Marinaut 205, the fuel tanks are moved forward, on each side, to better balance the boat.

As far as kicker size goes, what size motor would work best for trawler mode? I won't be in any hurry and will travel at hull speed for a big part of the trip. 15hp?

Thanks again
 
Here's something to think about. The biggest mistake I see people do on a boat while docking is not using the wheel enough and in the wrong manner. I can turn my boat with a single in a complete circle inside its own lenght, I got a case of beer to bet if you think i cant, and the key to this is a wheel knob and neutral. I never but the boat i gear until I have the motor turned in the direction I want. So many people go from forward to reverse and then turn the wheel. Well now the boat is starting to move in the wrong direction while you are moving the wheel. This takes up time and space. if you are moving back ward to the left and need to turn forward to the right you need to A) stop the boat- so go to neutral turn the motor to center,then a tap forward. B) neutral again and then turn the wheel to the right while you are stopped, then you can put the boat in forward again. by doing this over and over you can do a complete circle in a single boat lenght. If you can do that then you can dock anywhere.

Now for the big question on horse power. if you dont have it you can't use it, but if you do have it you don't have to use it. I like to get going when the weather tells me its time to get going. Not that it helped in the lighting last week but we would have been worse if we had not gotten up and ran.
 
The term "Wheel Knob" crops up now and then--this is also known as a "spinner" in the marine world, and a "Brody knob" when I was a teenage-some time ago. The better ones have bearings and allow rapid spinning lock to lock. I agree that they are very helpful in small boat handling.

With the 4 stroke engines, I am not sure that there is any real advantage in fuel consumption with using a kicker. The majority of boaters do not use their kickers--except perhaps as very slow trolling motors.....see my post on Tom Cat speeds. 8 hp is probably all that you need with a CD 25 to make 5 knots--and that is what will be an economical speed. I have had several questions off list about how to get a "kicker" to give more speed. Basically if you can put on a larger prop (diameter, blade area and low pitch) you can be more effective pushing a boat at displacement speed. I used my 3.5 hp dinghy motor as a kicker on my center console--which has the same weight as a CD 25--and it will push the boat at over 3 knots in smooth water. Granted that it will be hard for a smaller motor to push the boat in heavy winds or waves--but there are other problems in these conditions--including cavitation if the prop comes out of the water with waves....
 
I have only done this in practice, and have done it a few times that way but have never resorted to doing in from need yet.

For docking in a situation where the wind is coming from the dock towards the boat. I come in to within a boat length or two of the dock, do a 180, to face away from the dock, then back toward the dock using both engines in reverse, until I am almost to the dock, then, because I favor the Starboard side to the dock, will us the stbd engine to hold position, and the port engine to pivot the boat around to the right (stbd) until it is parallel to the dock. May look pretty crazy, but it does work.

By the way, I don't think my twin 40's are mounted wider than normal. And I can turn around in my own length like Tom, I just can't fish like him :wink:

Harvey
SleepyC
:moon
 
Gregw":nqd1wa9q said:
If there is no real advantage in handling with twins, then I think I would go with a single and Kicker. The 4 strokes have become very reliable and the biggest issue I have seen is fuel quality, or just water in the fuel. So unless you have a separate fuel tank for each 40, both motors will have the same fuel problem. With a kicker, the fuel is separate. Weight is also an issue on the 22, from what I have read, the original boat was not designed for the weight of a modern 90hp 4 stroke (and fuel) that is why the 22 rides a little low in the back and benefits so much from trim tabs. Thats why on Ben Toland's latest boat design, the Marinaut 205, the fuel tanks are moved forward, on each side, to better balance the boat.

As far as kicker size goes, what size motor would work best for trawler mode? I won't be in any hurry and will travel at hull speed for a big part of the trip. 15hp?

Thanks again
Click to expand...

Hi Greg,

It's not accurate to state that there's no handling advantage with twins even though they are not far apart. I would say that there may or may not be a handling advantage based on the individual at the controls and what he or she is accustomed to and expects to be able to accomplish. I can do things with the twins that I can not do with a single but that's never kept me from accomplishing what I wanted to do with a single even if the process was a bit different. Truly, it's a personal choice.

Unless you're very lucky water in the fuel won't be an issue in only a single tank; generally if it's in one, it's in the other. Running twins on separate tanks doesn't ensure anything. Sounds good on paper though.

The kicker usually runs off the main tanks but when I rig a boat I set it up so the kicker fuel line retains its quick disconnect feature and can be connected to an aux tank.

The C-Dory 22 was not designed for the weight that is typically installed on the transoms these days. However, a pair of Honda BF40/50s is lighter than a BF90 and kicker which is one of the reasons I've always liked that set up. Until the new BF50/50 "D" models with EFI came out and the weight went up 10 pounds (each) the twin BF40/50s weighed almost exactly what the old BF75/90 "A" model did alone (before adding the kicker). Today one still can not categorically state that a single/kicker is going to be lighter than twins...or vice versa.

A 15hp kicker is way too much kicker for the CD22; something around 8 to 10 hp is a better choice. There's no advantage running the kicker to cruise on as opposed to the main engine. It's there for a back up and it's good for fishing if you need direct control in the cockpit. You also won't realize a fuel savings running on one of a pair of engines speed for speed. So if it's only there for backup then get the lightest and least espensive kicker you can; right now that's the Honda BF8 "A" (Classic) or the Tohatsu/Nissan 8/9.8 (not saying these are the "best" engines, there are lots of really great ones, only that these are the lightest).

Fishing is probably the biggest factor in choosing between a single/kicker and twin installation. If you fish a lot and love to be in the cockpit with direct control you'll appreciate the single with a kicker.

You can't go wrong either way and except to meet your own expectations and needs there's no overwhelming reasons to go one way versus the other; in other words, from an objective technical standpoint both set ups work just as well so it comes down to a personal choice based on what you like and what you'll do.
 
Les,
I troll with my boat a lot and I find that the speed with one engine is about right at 1400-1700 rpm depending on the wind and tide. The engine is very sensitive in that range and it can be very hard to make small speed changes. I am guessing it might be where the carbs are changing from idle to high speed jets? Any way that little irritation might be enough to get me to change to single/kicker if I ever have to repower.
 
CAVU":2h0gvxg1 said:
Les,
I troll with my boat a lot and I find that the speed with one engine is about right at 1400-1700 rpm depending on the wind and tide. The engine is very sensitive in that range and it can be very hard to make small speed changes. I am guessing it might be where the carbs are changing from idle to high speed jets? Any way that little irritation might be enough to get me to change to single/kicker if I ever have to repower.
Click to expand...

Hi Ken,

That's a tough speed range for sure and it's partly due the normal "slop" (for lack of a better word) in the mechanical linkages in the remote controller, in the throttle cable, and in the linkages in the engine; and you're coming up off the idle circuit.

Another option would be to see how it does just kicking both engines into forward gear at idle. That might give you the speed you want without the fuss and give you a bit more charging capacity as well. I doubt it would change the fuel burn almost at all.

I agree for fishing that a single and kicker is probably the best. I like the kicker with a Troll Master on it which gives very precise speed control.
 
Back
Top