trim tabs-ZIPWAKE
- Thread starter rainman2
- Start date
South of Heaven
New member
I assume you're talking about while underway, right? For that , trim tabs will help. I don't know why C Dory's don't come standard with tabs...
But if you're talking about rolling when at rest (when passengers move) then you're out of luck. It's hard with a 7'8 beam and light boat. My 19 would roll alot when people moved around.
But if you're talking about rolling when at rest (when passengers move) then you're out of luck. It's hard with a 7'8 beam and light boat. My 19 would roll alot when people moved around.
It looks as if it costs a bit more than conventional trim tabs--it is basically creating localized drag at the stern. This can "steer" the boat. I question how much more efficient it is than tabs for fuel efficiency. It will react faster, because it is traveling a short distance up and down.
You already have fore and aft with an outboard. ( believe that most of the videos are inboards). There are dynamic controls for the conventional trim tabs. Adding on the automatic trim control to existing Bennett or Lenco systems is less than $300.
It appears that to get the best results you may need several of the accentuates, where the kit starts at about $2000.
Also if you cover the transom with these accentuates, where do you put the depth sounder transducers? Will they interfere with the smooth flow of water over the prop of the outboard?
I just don't see a lot of advantage, except the speed of action.. If you want less wave effect, then by a cat...
You already have fore and aft with an outboard. ( believe that most of the videos are inboards). There are dynamic controls for the conventional trim tabs. Adding on the automatic trim control to existing Bennett or Lenco systems is less than $300.
It appears that to get the best results you may need several of the accentuates, where the kit starts at about $2000.
Also if you cover the transom with these accentuates, where do you put the depth sounder transducers? Will they interfere with the smooth flow of water over the prop of the outboard?
I just don't see a lot of advantage, except the speed of action.. If you want less wave effect, then by a cat...
The tendency of the CDory 22 to roll as weight shifts in the boat is inherent. Conventional trim tabs do a very good job at getting a boat that isn't quite balanced to ride flat, as well as give you control of the pitch of your bow underway. It would seem that the Zipwake trim tabs you found do the same. They are a rudder, and it seems to make sense that they would perform as indicated.
But the automatic control of them is something separate from their performance vs. regular trim tabs.
I'd have some concerns about the shear force that would be applied to the zipwake tabs sticking straight down into the water for one. Conventional trim tabs aren't opposing the force of the boat so directly. I would speculate that the more laminar flow of normal trim tabs would cost less fuel per degree of hull adjustment than these zipwake tabs.
The automatic control is something I'm generally skeptical of. I have the auto controller for bennett trim tabs on a landing craft that was built with the pilothouse to port causing an inherent list to port When unloaded, the trim tabs have to make up for this list, which can be made better or worse by variably trimming the boat's twin engines. This setup is very challenging for novice operators to run as up and down on trim tabs and engines do different things. So, for the benefit of our less experienced operators we replaced a failed trim tab position indicator with auto controls.
In a nutshell, they don't work well. You get the boat running flat and how you want it manually, and set the unit to keep it there. Usually it will do a fine job for a few minutes, but eventually a wave or wake or turn will get the boat to lean over, and it confuses the unit to the point where it will lean the boat over on the heavy side, and will adjust the trim tabs to their maximum to increase this list. I've tried different installations and they haven't worked well for me. I have seen some very positive feedback about these auto trim tab controllers, which is why I tried one out, but at least for my boat with an inherent list, they don't work well. I wouldn't speculate that the zip wake unit is much better, but hey, give it a shot and let us know!!
But the automatic control of them is something separate from their performance vs. regular trim tabs.
I'd have some concerns about the shear force that would be applied to the zipwake tabs sticking straight down into the water for one. Conventional trim tabs aren't opposing the force of the boat so directly. I would speculate that the more laminar flow of normal trim tabs would cost less fuel per degree of hull adjustment than these zipwake tabs.
The automatic control is something I'm generally skeptical of. I have the auto controller for bennett trim tabs on a landing craft that was built with the pilothouse to port causing an inherent list to port When unloaded, the trim tabs have to make up for this list, which can be made better or worse by variably trimming the boat's twin engines. This setup is very challenging for novice operators to run as up and down on trim tabs and engines do different things. So, for the benefit of our less experienced operators we replaced a failed trim tab position indicator with auto controls.
In a nutshell, they don't work well. You get the boat running flat and how you want it manually, and set the unit to keep it there. Usually it will do a fine job for a few minutes, but eventually a wave or wake or turn will get the boat to lean over, and it confuses the unit to the point where it will lean the boat over on the heavy side, and will adjust the trim tabs to their maximum to increase this list. I've tried different installations and they haven't worked well for me. I have seen some very positive feedback about these auto trim tab controllers, which is why I tried one out, but at least for my boat with an inherent list, they don't work well. I wouldn't speculate that the zip wake unit is much better, but hey, give it a shot and let us know!!
starcrafttom
Active member
The zip tabs are a redesign on the volvo QL tabs. they have been around a long time but mostly for bigger boats. Which is why I have little worries about how strong they are. They use them on 40-70 ft boats. I think they could handle a c -dory.
You do not have to put them all the way across the stern. How many you use is determined by a formula that is on the web site. Looks like just two small tabs for the 22 dory. I dont know about older auto tabs but looking and WATCHING the videos I link to I would say that we are in a new age of tabs that are smarter and quicker. I can see where the older tech with a mercury switch would not be able to keep up but this is the same tech that is in your cell phone for tilt and compass. Its the same thing that runs the newer auto pilots. If I did not already have lenco tabs that I plan to update with the auto controller I think that I would go with the zip tabs. It most likely over kill but I want to try them. If they can handle 30 plus ft boats at 40 mph I think they would be a good buy. ( any one want to buy a used part of lencos )
And remember that if you have trim tabs, which most of us do, then the only difference is whether or not you or the auto pads has to adjust the boat. I can not Not adjust the boat and it would make my life happier if the auto pad was doing it for me.
You do not have to put them all the way across the stern. How many you use is determined by a formula that is on the web site. Looks like just two small tabs for the 22 dory. I dont know about older auto tabs but looking and WATCHING the videos I link to I would say that we are in a new age of tabs that are smarter and quicker. I can see where the older tech with a mercury switch would not be able to keep up but this is the same tech that is in your cell phone for tilt and compass. Its the same thing that runs the newer auto pilots. If I did not already have lenco tabs that I plan to update with the auto controller I think that I would go with the zip tabs. It most likely over kill but I want to try them. If they can handle 30 plus ft boats at 40 mph I think they would be a good buy. ( any one want to buy a used part of lencos )
And remember that if you have trim tabs, which most of us do, then the only difference is whether or not you or the auto pads has to adjust the boat. I can not Not adjust the boat and it would make my life happier if the auto pad was doing it for me.
island andy
New member
I have had one season's eperience with these trim tabs. They came with my boat, installed by the p.o.. Everything the p.o. did with the boat seems to be first class, at least in terms of no expense spared.
They work very well. The self leveling function works fine. If fully deployed in straight and level running, they will bring the bow down too much, so for usual circumstances, I run them about half or two thirds deployed
They are relatively small [boat stored 300 mi north, so cannot give details], I would estimate about 10" wide. they do not interfere with my transducer. In fact, very neat and tidy package.
One huge advantage to me is that I can mount my kicker directly on the transom and these units do not interfere with the spin-for-reverse function of the motor.
They also retract automatically when the ignition is turned off, so, if trailer interference might be an issue, you are covered.
I understand thataway's concern about drag. However, all trim tabs cause drag and I bet a smart person could tell us if vector analysis or such would show equal drag for Zipwake vs conventional.
This is my first boat in 60 yrs of boat ownership which has had trim tabs, so I am unable to offer a comparison. Any questions, I would be happy to try to answer.
andy
They work very well. The self leveling function works fine. If fully deployed in straight and level running, they will bring the bow down too much, so for usual circumstances, I run them about half or two thirds deployed
They are relatively small [boat stored 300 mi north, so cannot give details], I would estimate about 10" wide. they do not interfere with my transducer. In fact, very neat and tidy package.
One huge advantage to me is that I can mount my kicker directly on the transom and these units do not interfere with the spin-for-reverse function of the motor.
They also retract automatically when the ignition is turned off, so, if trailer interference might be an issue, you are covered.
I understand thataway's concern about drag. However, all trim tabs cause drag and I bet a smart person could tell us if vector analysis or such would show equal drag for Zipwake vs conventional.
This is my first boat in 60 yrs of boat ownership which has had trim tabs, so I am unable to offer a comparison. Any questions, I would be happy to try to answer.
andy
FWIW, I have Bennet tabs. The way my boat is usually loaded I run the motor all the way in (most nose down) and the tabs about 3/4 deployed (according to the trim display). After that I adjust +/- whichever tab to get the lateral leveling right. Once set I generally leave it about the same, only adjusting for lateral load shifts.
There have been times where I have run out of nose down (sorry, I meant bow down) trim.
I have also disabled the auto stow feature. It got annoying to have to reset the trim tabs each time I shut off the engine. The position of the boat on my trailer does not require the tabs to be retracted before hand. It'd be nice if the tabs remembered their position, would stow when the engine shut off, and the return to the "remembered" position when the engine restarted. With today's technology that should be a given feature.
If my tabs fail, I'd look at replacing them with Zipwake tabs.
There was a comment that questioned how the ZipWake tabs would work with a sonar transducer. However, you don't put a transducer near conventional tabs, so why would you put it near the ZipWake "tabs" (for pretty much the same reason).
There have been times where I have run out of nose down (sorry, I meant bow down) trim.
I have also disabled the auto stow feature. It got annoying to have to reset the trim tabs each time I shut off the engine. The position of the boat on my trailer does not require the tabs to be retracted before hand. It'd be nice if the tabs remembered their position, would stow when the engine shut off, and the return to the "remembered" position when the engine restarted. With today's technology that should be a given feature.
If my tabs fail, I'd look at replacing them with Zipwake tabs.
There was a comment that questioned how the ZipWake tabs would work with a sonar transducer. However, you don't put a transducer near conventional tabs, so why would you put it near the ZipWake "tabs" (for pretty much the same reason).
starcrafttom
Active member
Andy - How fast is the adjustment of the tabs in auto mode if someone moves around the boat? Also do you think it helps in cornering compared to no tabs? very interested to see photos when you get back to the boat even if its in a few months.
I have the Bennet Automatic Trim tab Controller and love it... It is one of those things you set once and forget it...always tries to put the boat in the same position as when you originally set it.... so you do hear your trim tab motor running much more...it will easily adjust for people moving around in the boat and I think it is well worth the money...when underway you are not aware that it is doing anything ....until you shut it off...then you notice a big difference.
Joel
SEA3PO
Joel
SEA3PO
These are very interesting. One of the reasons I did not want trim tabs was to be able to mount the kicker directly on the transom without needing a bracket or jack plate, but these appear to solve that issue.
Andy, looking at the original sale thread for your boat, it appears yours are actually Volvo QL Tabs, same principle but different brand.
Tom, the 22 for sale in Everett at Bayside Marinealso has the Volvo QL tabs that Andy's boat has, and you can see a photo on their website. Pretty cool - they have a 9.9 high thrust kicker mounted directly on the transom and directly above the tab.
-Mike
Andy, looking at the original sale thread for your boat, it appears yours are actually Volvo QL Tabs, same principle but different brand.
Tom, the 22 for sale in Everett at Bayside Marinealso has the Volvo QL tabs that Andy's boat has, and you can see a photo on their website. Pretty cool - they have a 9.9 high thrust kicker mounted directly on the transom and directly above the tab.
-Mike
I had raised that question, because looking at the table on the ZIPtrim web site, to get an "Excellent" response, the table indicated that 90% of the transom trailing edge should be covered by the ZIPwake modules. They even have one for the center of a V hull, which would put it in front of the outboard lower unit. If 90% of the transom was covered--then there would be little area with clear flow for the trim tab. For comparison, I have 12" wide trim tabs, so there is 24" out of about 68" (measured beam water line on my C Dory 22), or 28% of my transom is covered by trim tabs. If Andy's 10% is correct, then each of his accentuates will only be less than 3.5" wide. I believe that Mike noted that Andy had either QL or Volvo--I thought Andy implied ZIPwake--so there may be some difference. The smallest ZIPwake (300) is noted to be 12" wide, (Volvo is the same width) so if this is what Andy has, there is the same amount covered as the Trim Tab. (I believe Andy said he did not have access to the boat, so probably his was a guess.)'
Andy's response was that his unit only used about 10% of the transom. The manufacturer's minimal factor (.3) was said to give "minimal" response. It may well be that "minimal" response is adequate for a light boat like a C Dory and thus no interference with transducers. In 90% plus of inboards, the depth sounder is thru hull, not transom.
If it works all that well, I wonder why all boat manufacturers don't build a similar mechanism into the boats at production time?
As Tom noted Volvo has had this system for some time--Perhaps the sensors, or accentuates are different in the ZIPwake. (Sensor appears to be similar to the "one point" )Volvo has had this system for about 10 years, as Tom noted earlier. I had raised the same questions on another forum at that time. That system has never taken off.
A company named "QL" also developed and marketed a similar device over 10 years ago. However it went 18 CM into the water, rather than 2-3 cm. The QL System also talked about installing several trim units across the transom. It did not have the automatic system--pure push button.
I have never seen a boat with the Volvo system; Andy is the first person I have heard from who has real time experience with either system.
Thanks for the clarification Bob. I saw the thread on the boat Andy bought, which said "Q-tabs" and everything that came up on Google showed the Volvo units, but apparently they are different brands, so his boat may well be ZipWake as indicated earlier and maybe the original seller just used the wrong name.
The boat in Everett definitely has the Volvo units, which I've seen in person, however at the time I didn't know what they were, until I saw this thread and found photos of the Volvo units online.
Andy's account sounds like they are pretty effective either way!
-Mike
The boat in Everett definitely has the Volvo units, which I've seen in person, however at the time I didn't know what they were, until I saw this thread and found photos of the Volvo units online.
Andy's account sounds like they are pretty effective either way!
-Mike
One more link from the Volvo website on their "QL" system- so maybe Volvo bought the QL brand that Bob was referring to, and have since dropped the "QL" ? The interceptors and controller appear the same.
Good point Mike. Looking at the the foot note of the Volvo Boat trim system:
From what I find the QL, before bought by Volvo, did not have the "automatic" feature. It is possible that the ZIPtrim, has an even more sophisticated system. (?).
The other interesting thing, is the QL originally talked about 18 CM deployment depth of the "interceptors"--the Volvo is 3 CM--similar to the ZIPtrim. !8 CM is close to 7" 3 cm is closer to an inch and 1/8...lots of difference if the, 18 CM is really true!
From what I find the QL, before bought by Volvo, did not have the "automatic" feature. It is possible that the ZIPtrim, has an even more sophisticated system. (?).
The other interesting thing, is the QL originally talked about 18 CM deployment depth of the "interceptors"--the Volvo is 3 CM--similar to the ZIPtrim. !8 CM is close to 7" 3 cm is closer to an inch and 1/8...lots of difference if the, 18 CM is really true!
island andy
New member
Let's see:
Tom, when weight shifts, the boat moves but the list is quickly corrected such that one notices the movement, but the net effect is about as if a wave rolled the boat once. I frankly have never noticed the effect cornering. Guess I will have to check that out. I would be happy to provide pics. Launch will depend on when the ice goes out on Georgian Bay, but looks like an early breakup since the winter to date has been so mild.
Mike, the p.o. had replaced the original master board ["brain"] because of failure of the original one ...... which might give one pause......and what I received from the p.o. was the box from the replacement parts. The box contained everything except the master board, which, of course, had been installed. I was aware that these were originally a Volvo product, but I do not recall that "Volvo" was on the box. It is possible that I have a later iteration of the product, a hybrid, or some such. I can settle this issue by checking with the manual/box as soon as I get up north.
thataway, mine would be the 12". I had estimated the width of the units, not the total extent of the stern covered, so sorry about the misapprehension. I am impressed at the array on the deep v pics you sent. I suspect that the flat aft section of the C-D may account for the relatively small units which function well on my boat.
Thanks for the questions, and for an opportunity to contribute to this outstanding forum. If I have not clarified any issues directed my way, please let me know.
andy
Tom, when weight shifts, the boat moves but the list is quickly corrected such that one notices the movement, but the net effect is about as if a wave rolled the boat once. I frankly have never noticed the effect cornering. Guess I will have to check that out. I would be happy to provide pics. Launch will depend on when the ice goes out on Georgian Bay, but looks like an early breakup since the winter to date has been so mild.
Mike, the p.o. had replaced the original master board ["brain"] because of failure of the original one ...... which might give one pause......and what I received from the p.o. was the box from the replacement parts. The box contained everything except the master board, which, of course, had been installed. I was aware that these were originally a Volvo product, but I do not recall that "Volvo" was on the box. It is possible that I have a later iteration of the product, a hybrid, or some such. I can settle this issue by checking with the manual/box as soon as I get up north.
thataway, mine would be the 12". I had estimated the width of the units, not the total extent of the stern covered, so sorry about the misapprehension. I am impressed at the array on the deep v pics you sent. I suspect that the flat aft section of the C-D may account for the relatively small units which function well on my boat.
Thanks for the questions, and for an opportunity to contribute to this outstanding forum. If I have not clarified any issues directed my way, please let me know.
andy
island andy
New member
addendum: I looked at the pic of the 22 for sale at ?Bayside, and my units look just like those depicted.
andy
andy
Andy, Thanks for the information. I wonder how the response time is with Andy's unit and the one from ZIPwake. The latter unit sounds like it is using the same type chips as our Cell phones, and the Point One Sensor unit. The Volvo current one uses a GPS--the ZIPwake uses either NMEA 2000 or an external GPS.
Interesting concept--and if it is "lightning fast", I can see where it is something of great value and might be an upgrade from the standard trim tabs. If no faster than the standard--then I wonder if it is worth the cost to upgrade, if you have a well functioning system. (not that Lenco automatic trim tab is cheap--at first I saw just the control pad: $239--than I found out the full price, with brain box etc--$1500.)
Interesting concept--and if it is "lightning fast", I can see where it is something of great value and might be an upgrade from the standard trim tabs. If no faster than the standard--then I wonder if it is worth the cost to upgrade, if you have a well functioning system. (not that Lenco automatic trim tab is cheap--at first I saw just the control pad: $239--than I found out the full price, with brain box etc--$1500.)