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From: kenonBlue-C (Original Message) Sent: 10/25/2003 8:45 PM
What do you have for a tow rig and how do you like it? I'm pondering getting rid of the big red beast and getting something more user friendly like a Dakota or an older short bed ex cab Chevy with a 6.2. I'm leaning towards something under $10,000 cuz it only gets used for boat duty (I even thought about fixing up an old station wagon). Thoughts on tow rigs?

From: "Nancy H" Sent: 10/25/2003 9:14 PM
Ken,

I use a 1991 F-350 Ford Van with a 460 engine. This van has plenty of towing and braking capacity. It also has enough weight on the rear axle to put up the ramps without spinning the tires. I paid about $5,000.

Larry

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 10/25/2003 9:29 PM
Those vans are sure a good value, I've seen some high mileage newer vans with the diesel engine in the $10k zone. It would be kind of neat to fix up a cargo van interior like a C-Dory.

From: Mike Sent: 10/25/2003 9:31 PM
Wanna buy a Jeep?

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 10/25/2003 9:45 PM
tempting but I need to haul bark dust on occasion....not just bark.........it is a nice jeep

From: tsturm Sent: 10/26/2003 8:35 AM
I picked up a 2003 Silverado W/6.6L Duramax Diesel, Cant tell the 22' JMR II is there LOL!!
and It gets 18-20 mpg pulling the boat TONS of POWER!!
Not cheap but well worth it.

The 6.2 GM is a SLUG, find a 90's 6.5W/turbo you will be a happier camper. I would stay away from the cornbinder/ford/powerjoke, the dodge /cummins are ok if you are a dodge guy!
Good luck!!!

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 10/26/2003 11:07 AM
Opinions...we've all got them. ;)

Powerjokes? Hadn't heard that one before, but I've got a 97 that has been a dream. Tons of power, and never given me a moment of trouble. Once it went out of warranty, I chipped it, modified the exhaust and intake, and found out just how much it had been "de-tuned" for the passenger truck market, not that it was a slouch to begin with. Setting all my Ford bias aside, here's a link that will give you more honest feedback on Ford Diesels than I could possibly fit in one post.

If you're thinking diesel, here's my opinion:

Dodge: Cummins knows their stuff. Great engines, all reliable, but the newer models have an edge in power, particularly the HO model (not available in CA last I checked.) If you're thinking of power mods (chips, exhaust, etc.), Cummins are the least expensive to update of the bunch.

Ford (powered by International): Diesels prior to the PowerStroke 7.3's (pre-96) are reliable, but underpowered. PowerStroke 7.3's (96-02) are fantastic engines, with a proven track record. Jury's still out on the new 6.0's - some folks love them, some have had nothing but problems. Problems I've seen seem to be about 90% computer related, not mechanical - personally, I'd wait another year on these to see how things get sorted out.

GM (Duramax/Isuzu) - Tons of power, my Dad has one, very nice driving truck. However, reports are also mixed - again, computer related problems seem to be the majority. My Dad suffered a glitch on his that required a tow back to the dealer, and a reflash of the computer - otherwise, he's been happy with it. Personally, I'd wait on this one another year or so as well. And as tstum mentioned - don't even think of any pre-Duramax GM diesels, it's pretty much universally agreed upon they leave much to be desired.

My bottom line: When paying the extra bucks for a diesel truck, two of the biggest selling points are reliability and longevity. For my money, I'll not compromise on either of these factors, and would stick with known good quantities. If buying new today, I'd stick with the Dodge. If buying used, I'd stick with newer Dodges or 96-02 PowerStoke 7.3's.

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 10/26/2003 11:51 AM
My opinion....I want to spend less than 10k on a smaller rig with a comfortable ride, that leaves me looking at chevys if I want diesel power. I have faith in the 6.2 & 6.5s but those Chev transmissions are another question. Wouldn't be opposed to a gasser 1/2 ton.......sheesh, maybe I should buy a jeep but that guy that has that one for sale probably wants $43,000 for it
I check into the Diesel stop forum regulary as well as The Turbo Diesel Registry (dodge) and The Diesel Page (chev)..lots of good info in those forums


From: PS_Rick Sent: 10/26/2003 4:46 PM
OK, I'll admit that I am a Dodge/Cummins guy. I mostly agree with DeNag about truck diesels. As far as an older 6.2 or 6.5 GM's, I would steer clear. They are under powered and aquired the nickname "the gernade". This because about 1 in 5 after 50,000 miles would end up with a cracked block.
I have drived Ford diesel and the new Duramax. I know that the new Fords were having casting problems and getting fuel in the oil, I would think they would have addressed that problem by now. As far as the Duramax, I have wondered about the longevity of a diesel with aluminum heads. Who knows maybe they will last but I would wait and see.
How about a Mercedes Unimog?

From: Mike Sent: 10/26/2003 5:08 PM
Unimogs are cool. I wanted one of them when I was a kid for mudding. I figured you could stick it in compound low, tie it to a tree, and by the time you were done with dinner the tree would be over by the burn pile. However, they are made by Mercedes, which is part of Diamler, which merged with Chrysler. So just buy my wife's Jeep and you got the same thing.

I tried to get Tim to stop by the Lucky Eagle casino so I could win that Hummer they got out front, but he was afraid I would end up losing the rig we were driving.

I am looking to get a Dodge diesel. They seem to be cheaper than Ford/Chevy, and I am wondering if there is a reason for that.

Larry (Helen O) had me all talked into the dually, but when I mentioned it to my dad he threw a fit (just like the old days). He says the only thing you get with duals is two extra tires to replace. He says you of course get added stability with them, but "you're pulling less than five tons for crying out loud". (Paraphrased - this is a family site.) Now before you get to nailing his opinion too hard, remember he is almost as old as Dusty, and has about as much experience on the highway with trucks as Dusty has on the water with ships.



From: SpacelabCheers Sent: 10/26/2003 5:27 PM
But he's right. Always listen to Dad.

From: stevej Sent: 10/26/2003 6:06 PM
Mike whatever you do go with a diesel.
My original tow rig was a 6.5 diesel Tahoe slightly modified motor. They are a bit underpowered by today's standard but not a bad motor. B-C how can you say bad things about GM's turbo 400 keep them cool and they will last a very long time. I got around 11 towing Shearwater with the 6.5 and around 17 in the city.
Traded the Tahoe for a Duramax, very nice ride 27,000 miles with no problems. Towing is Shearwater is a minor event with this truck 13 mpg at 65 to 70 mph, 17 mpg around town 20 mpg freeway unloaded.
Have spent some time behind the wheel of a 99 ford F-350 7.3 with a 11.5 foot camper this summer. Great ride also lots of power not as refined as the Chev but all minor stuff.

Good luck
stevej


From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 10/26/2003 7:08 PM
SteveJ, turbo 400 very good, most excellent trany, is that what they ran in the mid 90's vintage diesel chevs? I thought they went to the 700R4 which is a good transmission after it's been rebuilt and upgraded. what year was your Tahoe?........guys.....think back to the old days when they hauled logs out of the mountains in those old trucks with 90hp....how much HP does a person need?....bung it...I'll buy the Volvo

From: Mike Sent: 10/26/2003 7:18 PM
Oh for crying out loud, Ken. My 23hp JD will haul my boat anywhere I want to go if I have enough time. It has hauled a few trees, too. Just buy the Jeep. Or the Volvo. Then you can put your trailer on the back and tow mine. Kay, me and the dogs will follow you in the Jeep.

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 10/26/2003 7:24 PM
Mike, something with a dump bed would be handy

From: stevej Sent: 10/28/2003 7:59 AM
Ken, the Tahoe was a 95. The 6.5 diesel package has lots of goodies including the 4L80E tranny that is nothing more than a Turbo 400 with electronic controls. Kind of a neat deal with the Tahoe you got the 3/4 ton truck motor, tranny, and cooling system in a SUV. Trick is that for strange reason it was only an option with the two door Tahoe and not available in the four door models.

So any 6.5 diesel package PU will have the same options and uses the 4L80E/Turbo 400 tranny. The gassers outside of the heaver 3/4 ton's came with the 4L60E/700R4/ (Turbo 350 with electronic controls).

The 6.5 is actually a very good motor but they did have problems with the injection pump from 95 to early 97 (GM extended the warrenty on the pumps to like 10 years) Most head probelms are due to people running them without a pyro guage and pushing the exhaust temp too high for extended periods of time while towing or hauling a big load.

stevej
 
Hey folks what suggestions (short of replacing the thing) would you have for increasing the power output from a 1995 3/4 ton 4x4 Silverado 5 speed with the 350? It pulls my 22 ok but an increase of 10% would make the tow that much easier. Thanks for your replies.

Levity's Michael :thup
 
Hi,
Headers and twin exaust will give 10% and put one off those low ristriction air filters will help to should make a good bit of differance.
Richard
 
Michael,
I'm not sure of the condition of your tow rig (overall condition, mileage, general state of tune, etc...), but there aren't a lot of cheap performance upgrades these days. And 10% is a fairly healthy increase. I will recommend a couple of things though.

First, make sure your rig has had a recent tune up, including new cap, rotor, PVC valve, fuel filter, plugs (properly gapped), and plug wires. Use a fuel and valvetrain cleaning additive through 2 tanks of gas. Check the ignition timing and make sure all of the emitions equipment is functioning properly. If any one of these systems aren't operating at their full capacity, the computer will start automatically compensating by altering settings away from the ideal.

Next, replace the factory-type paper air filter with a more free-flowing type. There are several manufacturers making these now but the big name is K&N. An engine needs an unrestricted flow of air in order to operate at peak power.

Then, change the crankcase oil to a synthetic or synthetic blend. The lower friction coeficient of the synthetics allows more power to be transferred to the drivetrain instead of wasted internally through heat generation. Also, changing to synthetics in the tranny, transfer case, and axles will help as well.

And don't forget to properly inflate your tires. Greater tire pressure (up to the TIRE MANUFACTURERS upper limit) will produce less power robbing rolling resistance.

All of these are things that can be done yourself, with a few regular shop tools. If this doesn't give you enough "extra" power (actually, "reclaim wasted power" would be more accurate), the other options are mostly mechanical in nature and it gets harder to justify spending the extra cash. At least for me, that is. (If I was towing a lot, I WOULD consider replacing/reprogramming the factory computer chip with one specifically tuned for towing, but it will compromise daily driving performance.)

As a bonus, if all this is done, you should not only get more usable power, but you should see an increase in fuel mileage too.

hope this helps...
--Rod

Oh yeah, don't forget to check the tire pressure on the trailer too...
 
Richard and Ron, :thup
Thanks guys for the suggestions to improve the power output of my tow vehicle. Your suggestions are practicle. Ron, you mention that changing the computer chip to one tuned for towing would compromise daily driving. Can you tell me what that compromise would be? Perhaps it is worth it. Most options are less expensive than replacing the vehicle, and a little inconvenience is acceptable.
Michael
 
read the fine print before you buy a computer chip for your vehicle, many require that you burn a higher octane fuel and that can cost you another 10-15 cents a gallon.....Like Rod says, give it a good tune up and don't forget to replace the plug wires and O2 sensor throw in a K&N air filter..Perhaps the next step would be a set of Flowmaster or other aftermarket mufflers...you could lower the floorboard 2 inches, that would allow to mash on the throttle harder :)
 
DOH! I forgot about changing the O2 sensor... very important.

Also, Ken is right about changing the chip. In general, the auto maker sets the specs according to the "best" compromise for selling cars to the masses. Chips which provide better towing performance (increased low end power), work by altering settings like timing and fuel delivery. This can lead to reduced top end speed (not usually a concern due to speed limits), the necessity to use a higher octane fuel, and an increase in overall fuel consumption even when not towing. Everything is a compromise.

I think that a new chip would be about $200. If the other stuff doesn't give you enough increase in power, look at how much you will be towing before you buy one. And talk to the manufacturers (not local salesmen) about documented changes in performance too (call them, don't e-mail). Salesmen use fancy talk and slick brochures to try and make a sale. Manufacturers need satisfied customers to stay in buisness.If their product will work for you, they should have the documentation to back it up. If their product will not work for you, it is better for them to tell you up front. Maybe later you will come back when their product will work, instead of bad-mouthing their product to everybody you know.

There are other changes that may help too. Like changing to a free flow exhaust, including pipes, CAT, and muffler, and adding a header. And you could have the motor rebuilt by a shop that specializes in towing performance mods.

There are a lot of options if you have a lot of money, but at some point it makes more sense to save your cash, sell the low power rig, and put the extra money into something that works better.

Hope this helps.
--Rod
 
I absolutely love my 2000 Ford E-350 4x4 van for towing, cargo and people capacity, and outdoor excursions. Quigley in York, PA does the conversions on new chevy and ford vans drop shipped from the factory, but they also have a listing of used converted vans for sale at their website:

http://www.quigley4x4.com/pages/index.c ... ge&upID=42

Mine was a demo van they used for auto mag writers that I picked up when it was a couple years old. I had a front receiver hitch welded on so I ccan maneuver the Otter around its crowded marina (where I keep it on a trailer) with ease.

The engine on mine is a 6.8 liter V-10 and a guzzler, but other options exist.

Good luck!
 
Ken,

Several of the locals have bought the 383 uprgrade to the 350. Little spendy, I guess, but every one of the fellers raves about the power -- great torque for pulling. My memory guess -- about 3,500 bucks swap out. If it saves having to buy a new tow rig, not bad.

Dusty
 
If anyone is considering a new tow rig, here's a litttle bit of advice. If you plan to spend much time tooling around in crowded parking garages, don't get the long sucker. Holy cow, I had to go through a garage twice today - once to the second level and once to the fourth. The first thing I had to do, though, was get out and see how much overhead clearance I had (about 4 inches). When I pulled out the first time, there was someone waiting for my spot, and I had to turn the wrong way. Took about three laps to get headed the right way. If you rev the diesel just a bit, though, I found they get out of your way!
 
No way is there one in Warrenton. Up to the big city today. Mom needed a ride to the treatment place and it has been snowy and icy in the hills. I swapped today for tomorrow at work so Kay wouldn't have to drive it.

I am such a sweet son and husband!

The truck has just over 700 miles on it, and has averaged just over 18 mpg. I drove onto the scales on the way home, and it read 7450 with me and mom in it - and mom don't weigh much! (Of course, with all the junk mom drags along, including a step stool to get in the truck, I guess her curb weight is about normal!) I reckon 18 mpg is pretty good.
 
Mike, after I purchased my Dodge, I labeled a strip of dynotape with the height of the truck and stuck it on my speedometer. Now I don't feel so impelled to duck every time I drive under low clearances. (I even keep my eyes open when driving in parking garages).
 
Ken, Ron and all,
Thanks for your contributions to the discussion. The K&N filter is in now and there is already a noticable difference. Next items will be the plugs and wires etc., an O2 senser and at next oil change, synthetics. Things are looking up for the old Chevy. The flow master exhaust has caught my attention, but the existing exhaust is new so that upgrade may wait a while. Any experience, opinions about a can of octane booster added to the tank just before towing?
Michael
 
How many miles on your 350?

I have two 350's with lots of towing miles -- depending on how tough the tow, high octane gas should handle it IF the engine is tuned properly. Synthetic... I'm sold on that stuff and have used AmsOil for years. The pickup has a two filter bypass system (like the big 18-wheelers) and after a year the oil is as clear as new. The Yukon will get the double filter system soon. Be SURE and use a good flush before you switch to Synthetic to get all the carbon, varnish, etc. out. Again, I use the AmsOil flush. I go whole-hog and use 0W30 Amsoil. Overkill, I know, but have friends with over 350,000 miles on a 350.

Good oil and good maintenance beats an overhaul!!

Dusty
 
RF
I talked to the local Honda mechanic yesterday. He said the synthetic is good if your willing to pay the price. He said it was no problem to switch to synthetic, but you don't want to switch back to normal oil. He has used it in motors but recomends good quality oil and filter with frequent oil changes.
 
I don't do a lot of towing, but have been thinking of a slight upgrade from my '76 Suburban launch vehicle. After reading this thread, I've been thinking in terms of a diesel pickup. I just came across a 93 Dodge for a tempting price. Any scuttlebutt about this vintage that I should be aware of?
Thanks
 
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