Torqeedo 1003 as Kicker/dinghy motor

T

thataway

Active member
I am starting a new thread, since this involves some testing, but I link back to the original Torqeedo thread of 2007, last updated in 2013.

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... o&start=15


There is also a lot of information from this Australian site:

http://thetorqeedoshop.com.au/range-extension-options-for-torqeedo-1003-and-ultralight/


I purchased a Torqeedo 1003 primarily as a "kicker" for my 18 foot Caracal catamaran. This boat weight is 1800 lbs (about the same as a C Dory hull).
There is a 140 hp Suzuki, and 30 gallons of gas, plus some fishing gear aboard. Total weight about 2500 lbs.

The 1003 weight is about 28 #, but it breaks down into 3 pieces, the max weight of 15 lbs (which I can handle with a bad back). The battery, mount, shaft and prop, and handle with electronics, and small computer with a built in GPS. The computer gives % charge, range in nautical miles, speed in knots and watts consumed. There is full 360 degree pivot, and as well as reverse, so maneuvering at low speed is very easy. We put a mount on the swim step and this seems robust enough for this motor. The motor is said to be equivalent to a 3 hp outboard--but max output is 1040 watts, which is closer to 1.5 hp. I suspect that their thrust estimate is close, because of a larger prop, and what seems to be very efficient use. The battery is 29.6 volts and 520 watts.

The motor uses a 110 volt AC to 12 volt DC (brick type) charger which puts out 4.16 amps for charging the motor. There is a after market 12 volt charger which clamps to a regular lead acid battery and could be charged when under way with the C Dory main motor. There is also a solar charger, putting out 44 volts (expensive).

I spent about half an hour doing the tests and went over a mile. The battery was 99% charged when I started and 80% when I finished.

Here is are some rough estimates of speed and range, but remember as I go along, I have used up battery power, and the fully charged battery will have a slightly longer range, since I have used about 20% of the available power in this test.

The slowest which was practical was 130 watts 1 kmh and range of 28 miles.

The best speed was about 2.4 knots, 215 watts and range of 8 miles.

The max speed was 5 knots using 1040 watts and a range of 3.5 miles.

So what was wrong with the 1 knot speed? This was in very calm water with no wind. As I got out into some chop (boat wakes, and small surface chop, wind of 6 to 8 knots), the boat would almost stop, when hitting some waves, and then slowly get back up to speed. Steerage was difficult. Steerage was much more positive at the 2.4 knot speed. Speeds between 2.4 and 5 knots were almost linear for power use.

For comparison, with the Suzuki 140 at 1000 RPM we go about 2.5 knots, 1500 about 3.8 knots at 2,000 we are going about 5 knots.

So how will this work as a kicker in a larger boat? I suspect that the C Dory 22 will get similar "mileage" , or maybe a little less. The Caracal has fine lines and deep V forward, but is a planing cat, so the deadrise aft is almost flat. The hulls are narrow, and each has less resistance than the C Dory 22, but together, the wetted surface area is going to be equal to a monohull, lets say Aurelia's 19. It will be interesting to see what his findings are with the Torqeedo.

The Torqeedo is also going to be a good dinghy motor--but even the short shaft is fairly long, and coming to the beach, one will have to pull the shaft up. Panbo (Ben Ellison) some observations using this on a 12 foot fine entry skiff:

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2011/07/the_travel_1003_a_serious_case_of_torqeedo_love.html

Finally is a thread from Sydney Australia on a long trip in an inflatable:

http://thetorqeedoshop.com.au/pittwater-to-sydney-by-solar-power/

In this experiment the inflatable goes 20 miles at over 3 knots, with the aid of the auxiliary solar panel. I think that for the average dingy trips, the Torqeedo will push our 10 foot inflatable floor dinghy well at 3 knots, but it will not plane it, which the 3.5 hp mercury will do with just one person aboard (a slow plane), but about 8 knots.

The Caracal has a 83 # thrust trolling motor, which will give about 3.5 knots of speed, but the trolling motor weight is about 45 lbs, and requires two 60 lb batteries. We don't bring it for our trips to the Keys--mostly used at home when fishing fresh water or the bays and shallows.
 
Thanks for posting this. I've been interested in these motors for some time, but haven't talked myself into one. I'd use it primarily (really, exclusively) as a dinghy motor. My one real concern has been battery recharging on extended cruising in remote places. What are your thoughts on recharging with the main engine(s) while under way (I can produce a theoretical max of 34 amps with my two Yamahas)? I also carry a Honda 2K generator, but don't relish running it for hours just to charge up a battery.

Except for the price (!!), the idea of carrying a couple extra batteries is kind of appealing.
 
NORO LIM":36vi95dp said:
. . . My one real concern has been battery recharging on extended cruising in remote places. . . . .
Click to expand...

I see from the Panbo article that it can take up to 18 hours to recharge on 110 Volts. Hmmmm.
 
With average dinghy usage, and charging with the 12 volt cord, I suspect that you will have plenty of dinghy power. This assumes that you would only be going a few miles a day in the dinghy. If you want to go long distances, then the solar charger would be the best. Charge all of the time, including when the dinghy was under way. Panbo went 3.5 miles in his 12 foot skiff (probably more easily driven than the average dinghy) and only used ~ 44% of the battery capacity. The max charge rate at 12 volts is a little over 4 amps an hour. There is a circuit inside of the battery housing which steps the 12 volts DC up to 29 + volts for the actual charging. The max output of the solar panel is about 44 volts, so apparently charges faster than the 12 volt charger.

It appears hat you can also charge the Torqeedo batteries from your C Dory house batteries, at 4 amps, even when the engine is not running. The dinghy in Sydney Australia had 17% left after a 20 mile run, (using the solar charger. When the sun was high, they were getting enough power out of the solar charger to run the inflatable at about 3 knots without depleting the battery charge. I would have to go back and read the article, but as I remember, there was a lot of battery usage the first few, and the last few hours of the 20 mile trip--plus they wanted to go faster than the 3 knots.

On our 110 volt charger, it took about 14 hours for the original charge--the battery was at 15% when we got the unit. This evening it took about 4 hours o put in the 20$ (80% to 100%),

With the Caracal, and my siting in the stern on one side, we were dragging the aft bridge deck underside in the water, so much more power usage than a dinghy. Our routine is that if we are not running the main engine, we run the Honda generator 2 hours a day (at Powell, a little less in the PNW) to charge the battery for the chest Freezer, we could be charging the Torqeedo battery, as well as charing the house batteries at the same time.
 
I'm interested in electric propulsion as it would really be a bonus: light, quiet, no gasoline in the cockpit, etc. So I was interested in Bobs comments and tried to sort them out. I also downloaded a Torqueedo manual, dated 2012 and looked at what the mfg specs

Code: 
Param            Bob          Spec	
Weight	        28	        29.5    lbs
Power                           
Input                         1000    watt
Output           1040          480    watt
                 1.4          0.64    hp
Pwr Eff                        48      %
Battery Cap      520 Watt     400     Watt-hr	
Bat Volt         29.6         29.6    V	
Charge Volt                   33.6    V	

Battery Charging			
With supplied 
charger                     100-240   VAC 

With battery bank             12      VDC
    via direct connection cable

So, Bob did a good job of demonstrating its utility. A few differences, in that the prop HP is 0.64 HP (0.48 KW) instead of 1.4 HP. Bobs performance shows that it's hard to correlate the gasoline HP with electric HP. The electric seems to do the job with less HP. 2/3 HP is probably enough for using a small dinghy comfortably, but for the 10' one we have, it's a bit low.

So, the battery has a capacity of 400 W-Hrs, and using it at full bore (2/3 HP,) you get about 1/2 hr (400/1000). Using half throttle (half rheostat?) you'll get ~1 hr. And that's at full discharge, which doesn't hurt LI batters as much as lead batteries, but limits the battery cycles to 500 cycles. I looked up the charging rate of LI ion batteries and it appears to be quite a bit faster than lead acid, but still takes up to 3 1/2 hrs to recharge. Now if you're using electricity at 1000 watts, the 45 watt solar panels don't do much to offset the current out.

Torqueedo supplies an AC to DC charger to recharge the battery (obviously,) and suggests that if you don't have AC available, use an inverter with at least 80 watt output. if you're replacing 400 W-hr with 80 watts, that takes ~ 400/80 = 50 hrs. As for a direct connection to the boats 12 VDC batteries, the manual states to do so with a Travel battery using direct connection cable (not included in delivery). I'm not sure what that means, but you're going from a 12 V battery to a 34 V battery, so there must be a DC-DC converter in there. Or they separate the battery into 12 v banks and charge them in parallel. Just a guess, check with you dealer.

So lets talk about efficiency. The mfg. claims 48% efficiency: 480 out/1000 in, out. That's not bad, but then you're either using battery power generated by your gas outboard (30% efficiency,) or a power plant (40% efficiency.) That's a end-to-end efficiency of 0.48*0.40= 20%. Which makes the gas outboard a better ecological deal. Sorry, Bob, I have this discussion with my son-in-law all the time. He owns a Nissan Leaf and can't use the car to visit us because of the range and recharge time. He likes that comment just as much as you probably do.

And finally the Torqueedo costs $2000 at West Marine, with a spare battery at $600. $2100 at WalMart.

The concept is great, but I'll stick with gas outboards for the nonce. Even at $4 gas, it's a deal and always ready to go.

Boris
 
Doc thanks for the info! I rarely use a dinghy but need something besides a wooden paddle in case my one engine dies. Don't like carrying extra containers of gas and oil. Torqueedo could be the answer.
 
One must also consider that you are going to want to spread that high initial expense over many years. But, the sad truth is that all batteries currently being built world wide degrade over time and charge cycles. So the performance that is being measured now will be considerably different next year and the year after that and so on. Expecting the Torqeedo to get you to shore in a wind this year may have a different result in the same wing and water conditions a few years from now. Maybe even "next year", depending on how much you use it year to year.

You can buy a huge amount of fuel for the difference in price between a new 2.5 hp Suzuki that will power you the same 10 years from now.

Just my thoughts, but I'm old and slow to come around to new tech.

Also, the emissions on my new 2.5 Suzuki are very, very low. I'm guessing it's carbon footprint is no worse that keeping the torqeedo charged. (Operative words are "I'm guessing").
 
This was not a comparison of range under gas vs electric power--for many obvious reasons. Nor is it an economic argument for battery power vs gas engines. The reasons I went with the electric is because of health issues which prevent me from putting the 30 lb, 3.5 hp 2 stroke gas motor on the transom, and pull starting the motor. I can manage 15 # or less elements. If you carry the gas, the gas outboard has a much longer range. There is no comparison with electric cars--and no insinuation that there is.

First to address Boris's comments: There is a lot of difference in understanding the motor in reading the on line manual, and actually using it. Also one has to read all of the links I posted to understand the post--or I could have made one humongous post... The point where Boris seems to disagree with me, is where he does not understand what is happening with the motor. There is a LCD read out screen on the tiller handle. It shows % charge, Range at current speed, speed over ground, and current consumption in watts. That is where the 1040 watts output comes from--and is what the battery is putting out, and what the motor (in the hub of the lower unit) is using. That is equal to about 1.5 hp. I suspect that the "throttle" is different than a rheostat, since the this is driven by a computer, and the "cables" to the handle seem to be #18 wire--which could not carry the current.

The older battery was 400 watts, the current battery is 520 watts. (2014) The battery pack has some converter (as I noted) to allow charge by 12 volts DC, at 4 amps, either by the 110/220 power brick, or directly from a 12 volt battery, with a power cord which can be made for a few dollars--or purchased for about $25. It also distinguishes from the higher voltage from the solar panels. To get the power from solar panels, you need more voltage--and at least 24 volts, so you can wire cheaper (than the Torqeedo) panels in series (as was done in the Sydney experiment).

Pretty difficult to convert what was necessary to move a 18 foot boat, weight about 2700 lbs, to what it will take to push a dinghy at 300 lbs.

Again, you have to read all of the links to understand about the solar charge and what the experience was in the Sydney experiment of 20 miles. The Australian folks use solar panels to get about 120 watts input, which is more than enough to drive a 10 foot inflatable at one 3 knots. If one reads Panbo's blog, he takes a 3.5 mile trip with a 12 foot dinghy and uses about 40% of 400 watt battery charge--so this is practical for dinghies. Again, you have to either read about other's experience, or try it yourself. Not theorize if it will push your dinghy or not. If you want to go fast--this motor is not for you.

The Lithium ion batteries are far different that the lead acid we are used to. To address Potter Waters comments about Li Ion batteries, read:

http://www.aboutrving.com/rr_one.php#Discussion

Dr. Ron Jones has an RV similar to ours, and I have corresponded with him about his Battery usage. He does a lot of camping without mains power in a large RV. His batteries are good for over 2000 cycles. (That is daily for 5 years). As you run the Li ion battery down, it continues to maintain voltage of 12.8--vs decreasing the loss of voltage with a lead acid battery. The li ion battery can be much deeper cycled, with out damage--I personally prefer still not to discharge them fully. In Dr. Jone's RV, his battery back is torn down yearly, and any bad cells are replaced--but for the most part his battery pack is testing nearly as well as when the batteries were put in about 4 years ago.

Regards,
 
When we bought the tug it came with an 8' dinghy but no motor. I was about ready to pull the plug on a Suzuki 2.5, but they had a Torqeedo at a boat show for in water demo. it was on a 12' dinghy and with 4 of us on board was very impressed I went with the current and against. For Desolation last we bought the Torqeedo, I really enjoyed the 3 piece break down setting it up in the boat. We used it getting to shore and cruising around anchorages in almost silence. Yes it is very pricey but for us I did not want to carry gas and easier for the wife to operate. We just plug it in to the inverter. For us it works great. Depending on your use may not be what you want for the purpose you have in mind.

Don
 
Thanks for the link Charlie. Amazing where technology is going. I have a friend who completed a 64 foot Malcolm Tennant Power Cat about a year ago. This boat runs all on 24 volts DC for the systems, including inverters to run air conditioning--the Lithium ion batteries were too expensive when he put the batteries aboard about 4 years ago--today they probably are "Affordaibel" and there would have been a huge weight savings. The only 'generator" is a small diesel engine running a 200 amp 24 volt alternator. (The main power is two cummins diesels).

The 1003 Torqeedo is not entirely silent--there is some noise, but way less than an outboard motor.
 
Bob, there are a lot of issues that make one select a product. And you had several good ones. I thought that, except for one difference, I was agreeing with your assessments. Just pointing out where those assessments went.

I'm happy the new battery is larger, the manual was from 2012. However, that LCD wattmeter was probably reading the input wattage. I'm not sure how one reads the motor output going through the water, especially in watts.

The rheostat was a play on words since throttle doesn't seem appropriate. Is there a more descriptive word you would use?. I'm used to do it by pulse width modulation, where the DC current is chopped into discreet pulses and the duty cycle is adjusted according to the power desired.

I'm happy that motor still lets you continue boating, but I don't think electric (only) propulsion is here yet. For the masses.

I have a heck (actually, h__l) of a time hoisting the 110# Honda kicker onto the mount when we launch Journey On. I'm going to start using the hoist we use when we transfer the motor onto the dinghy. So we all develop ways of coping. And it's not just my back, it's my whole body.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Boris
 
Don, Note that the unit will charge directly from a 12v connection and that should save you a bit of power over charging through the inverter on your tug. If you have plenty of juice, don't sweat it, but the connector is cheap and you can make yourself a nice plug and play unit. I plan to order up the connectors and 12v plugs and make a few myself. Maybe I can send some out to other owners. Too bad Torqeedo doesn't just sell one to use.

Greg
 
Just noticed a new smartphone app from Torqeedo to monitor your motor from the phone. I am not a big app loader but the ability to apply your current range to a map on your phone to show how "far" you can go is pretty snazzy.

Don't see it in the Play store yet and no info on price.

http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-out ... q-trac-new

update:

Now I also see mention of a different cable with bluetooth transmitter is required. I also see a new faster charger (double output) option for 120v charging. I thought the charging was really controlled in the battery so how does the charger alone step up the amps?

http://www.torqeedo.com/us/electric-out ... ccessories
 
Just ordered a small 22 dollar (ebay) 12v to 24v 5 amp step up DC converter to nearly double the charge rate for the Torqeedo battery from my 12v house bank. The unit is limited to 120W which is the limit for charging. Using a higher amp converter should not provide any benefit and may damage the Torqeedo battery from what I have read. I will test it and post results when I get a chance.

Greg
 
Hi Greg

Good info on the 12-24 stepup, that would be good. I cannot believe that Torqeedo does not have their own 120-12 volt converter. We literally got the motor put the stuff on the boat and took off for Desolation last year. This year I will retire in 57 days but who's counting! Then we will move to Washington and be near the boat to properly set it up, hoping for the Broughtons this year and Alaska next year.

Don
 
Greg,
The Bluetooth module and cables are $149 in the 2014 catalogue
http://www.torqeedo.com/images/kataloge ... log_US.pdf
I suspect it plugs into the tiller/throttle plug, and then there is a plug on the module for the tiller to plug into. It would be handy if you were steering the boat remotely and could not look at the LCD panel on the tiller assemble--on the other hand, I don't think I want to be holding my I phone in one hand, and steering with the other...

Have you verified with anyone who is using the 24 volt charger? My concern is that the literature addresses 4 amps at 12 volts as being max charge. at 24 volts, you are over the 4 amps at 120 watt charge- As I recollect the Sydney experiment discussed 120 watts output from solar panels (you might get the 120 watts at a higher voltage, with 4 amps), but the manual states the factory (Torqeedo) solar panel charge is max 4 amps--but max voltage is 58 volts (Idle voltage output from the solar panel) The higher output mains charger is 85 watts. Is that 24 volt output?
The worry is that if you exceed 4 amps, the fuse inside the battery case blows, and then the battery goes back to the factory ($$) for replacement)

The 12 volt cable is easy to make--it is just a cig lighter or battery clamps, a 4 amp fuse, and then the plug for the battery pack, which is a standard Radio Shack barrel type of plug (5.5/2/5mm).

Boris--Torqeedo calls speed control a "throttle" in the binnacle mount. I have called the twist grip speed control in trolling motors the "throttle". The LCD panel reads "current consumption"--which I believe to be output from the battery/input to the motor.

The catalogue says 80% of battery power at 9 years, no more than 4% loss a year. It will be interesting to see how these new battery units hold up.

The catalogue shows interesting yearly cost ($) for the 80 hp Deep Blue (initial cost is $19,999 for the 80 hp motor and $32,998 for 2 batteries) Sounds as if the break even point is going to be commercial fairly short range applications. Or someone who builds their own battery packs. Who is the billionaire who wants to put a Torqeedo 80 hp in the C Dory?
 
The way we use the motor I typically use about 4% cruising around anchorages. Usually we are at a marina every 2-3 days and charge off the batteries, so have never had a problem with the capacity of the battery. I like the fact that I can take the battery off and stow it along with the control arm. This makes it much more secure when away from the boat

The reverse came in real handy when shore tieing in the dark with a wind blowing, the motor has to be turned around on other motors. The motor has a lot of torque which I found out the hard way during first time use, so easy on the throttle is wise.

I recall a boat putting his older Honda on his dinghy, could not get it started, finally in a cloud of smoke and lots of noise it turned over. We just got in the boat and took off almost silent.
 
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