TomCat 255 Survey

[Mike...]

I see no reason there not to buy the boat.

Me neither, actually. I am a little worried about that crack in the fish box, though. Unfortunately, it didn't show up in the picture, so I didn't put it up.

I wasn't clear in my initial photo album description, So I have edited it to now be more clear. Some of those pictures are merely for documentation purposes.

Really, the only thing that worries me at this point is that call today - and whether it means anything, or not, with regard to future support from C-Dory.

The surveyor should not have made that call, you should have.

Well, the surveyor has gotta do what he has to do to complete the survey. Perhaps I should have called up there first, though.

And perhaps I should do just that tomorrow, just to allay my (perhaps unfounded) concerns about C-Dory. Surely with the following that still remains here after the new owners took over, they can't be all that bad.

Thanks...
---
mike

 

[Rob & Karen]

The factory can't be comittal to fixing a warranty problem until the boat has an owner.

I don't understand this comment. If a dealer has a boat in stock with a warranty issue, I would expect them to take care of the issue prior to delivery of the boat. What am I missing?

Rob

 

[Mike...]

You do realize, don't you, that C-Dory is under new ownership, right?

Yes, and I do realize that they have to ponder these the warranty issues as they come up.

In the end the crack in the fish box is likely not difficult to fix (well, for a good glass guy or gal), and I'll talk to the dealer about that tomorrow. The concern I have it what bigger problem might that crack become indication of down the road... er, river.

I haven't seen the surveyor's report yet, so I don't know what its going to say about the issue.

As a mentioned in my last post, I think I'll give C-Dory a call up there tomorrow and see what they have to say, before I get too worried. I am clearly not a surveyor, so my focus, and therefore my approach, is going to be different then his.

I do appreciate all the feedback, comments and support from everyone. It really does help.

Thanks...
---
mike

 

[Captains Cat]

The factory can't be comittal to fixing a warranty problem until the boat has an owner.

I don't understand this comment. If a dealer has a boat in stock with a warranty issue, I would expect them to take care of the issue prior to delivery of the boat. What am I missing?

Rob

Rob, I don't believe it's technically "a warranty issue" until the boat has an owner. Now the dealer could call it one, but he'd have to do it for every boat he gets from the factory on every item and, if I were the factory, he wouldn't be a dealer for long. Besides, I don't the boat is "titled" and therefore doesn't really have an owner.... I think it has a "certificate of origin". (where is a lawyer when I need one... :?: :roll: ) I don't see anything on there that would warrant (no pun intended) the dealer going to the factory and asking for something to be fixed before the boat is sold. Once the boat is sold, it's up to the owner to ask for it to be fixed. What if they went and fixed all that stuff and he didn't buy the boat?

The dealer may end up fixing it in the long run and getting reimbursed by the factory under warranty, that's a different kettle of fish (or fishbox, pun intended this time..).

 

[Rob & Karen]

The factory can't be comittal to fixing a warranty problem until the boat has an owner.

I don't understand this comment. If a dealer has a boat in stock with a warranty issue, I would expect them to take care of the issue prior to delivery of the boat. What am I missing?

Rob

Rob, I don't believe it's technically "a warranty issue" until the boat has an owner. Now the dealer could call it one, but he'd have to do it for every boat he gets from the factory on every item and, if I were the factory, he wouldn't be a dealer for long. Besides, I don't the boat is "titled" and therefore doesn't really have an owner.... I think it has a "certificate of origin". (where is a lawyer when I need one... :?: :roll: ) I don't see anything on there that would warrant (no pun intended) the dealer going to the factory and asking for something to be fixed before the boat is sold. Once the boat is sold, it's up to the owner to ask for it to be fixed. What if they went and fixed all that stuff and he didn't buy the boat?

The dealer may end up fixing it in the long run and getting reimbursed by the factory under warranty, that's a different kettle of fish (or fishbox, pun intended this time..).

I was not weighing in on whether the survey disclosed any warranty issues or not. It just seems illogical to me that a dealer would not be able to fix a warranty issue before selling a boat.

Think of a new C-Dory coming off the truck from the factory and (.....insert any warranty issue you like here) is wrong with the boat. If I were a dealer, I don't think I should have to find a buyer willing to buy a boat with a known and uncorrected warranty issue, while telling the buyer that it is up to them to deal with C-Dory to have it fixed. Also, if I am a buyer of a new untitled C-Dory, I do not want to hear that I am supposed to buy a new boat with a known uncorrected warranty issue, so that I can take it home and call C-Dory myself to see about having it repaired. I would expect the dealer to handle that. I think that is part of the dealers job.

If either of the scenarios above were correct (I am a dealer expected to sell a new problem boat, or I am a customer expected to buy a new problem boat) I would not be a dealer or customer for long.

Rob

 

[JamesTXSD]

Rob,

I certainly understand what you are saying and agree with it. Makes no sense to me that a dealer would even want a boat on the lot that wasn't ready to go out the door. Having said that, make the sale contingent on the dealer repairing all the stuff on the list... if the dealer isn't willing to do that, then I'd be concerned with any service after the sale.

I haven't seen a new boat yet that didn't have some issues to deal with.

Good luck with your decision, wannaboat.

Jim B.

 

[matt_unique]

Why are you or the surveyor contacting C-Dory rather than the dealer? I would present your findings to the dealer and ask if they will fix everything to your satisfaction and guarantee the 10 year hull warranty as part of the sales transaction. If not - walk.

If you really want the boat, you may want to consider other alternatives such as contacting C-Dory but I would first approach your dealer.

I ask the questions above because I have first hand experience with a bad dealership. This is water under the bridge since C-Dory has been excellent to me about warranty repairs.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[Mike...]

Thanks all for the replies.

Just to be clear, I have not yet discussed a resolution of the fish box issue with the dealer (who, by the way, seems to be a honorable guy). He knows the crack is there, but we haven't yet gotten to the part about what to do about it. I hope to have the survey tomorrow and we can chat then.

The crack itself is not actually the issue. It's water getting into the coring over time that is the concern. Remember these fishboxes are not watertight. But it isn't just that. I am also worried that the crack itself does not appear to be easily explained.

Is it the result of a simple manufacturing defect or someone doing something stupid like jumping up and down in the fish box? I wish it were that simple.

What I am worried about is that the crack merely an indicator of other unrelated and unknown structural stress that manifested itself in the fish box.

Am I just being too paranoid? It's ok to tell me I am crazy.

On the other issues we have been discussing - they appear to merely be a fairly straight-forward matter of detailing. It sounds like others here agree.

In the end, I am not worried about the little issues. They will work themselves out, one way or the other.

I am just worried about the big problems. You know what I mean. You are half way down the ICW, broken down, and Joe-Bob is working on some fix - which invariably involves the words, "Dude, your boat needs $10 grand in repairs to get you back on the water. Just hand that credit card right on over to me. I'll take good care of it....

:shock:

---
mike

 

[JamesTXSD]

...

Am I just being too paranoid? It's ok to tell me I am crazy.

You are crazy. In the words of the great philosopher Jimmy Buffett: "If we weren't all crazy, we'd just go insane." You're buying a boat - that alone makes you darn near certifiable. Welcome to the asylum.

On the other issues we have been discussing - they appear to merely be a fairly straight-forward matter of detailing. It sounds like others here agree.

In the end, I am not worried about the little issues. They will work themselves out, one way or the other.

I am just worried about the big problems. You know what I mean. You are half way down the ICW, broken down, and Joe-Bob is working on some fix - which invariably involves the words, "Dude, your boat needs $10 grand in repairs to get you back on the water. Just hand that credit card right on over to me. I'll take good care of it....

:shock:

---
mike

The reasons some of us buy a new boat: the assurance of a warranty. we want something no one else has screwed up yet (aka: DPO -Dreaded Previous Owner), we like that new boat smell. :wink:

I'm going to give you my opinion (feel free to completely ignore it, my little feelings won't be hurt): you NEED to be talking to the dealer. You buy a new boat from a dealer so you get all that cool "New Boat Shakedown Stuff" taken care of as part of the purchase agreement. That dealer is your go-between guy that takes care of those other-wise frustrating calls to the manufacturer. He is the one who makes sure you don't have to deal with "Joe-Bob" (and living in Texas, I know a few Joe-Bobs, btw). He is not the sneaky guy you have to work around. OR, if he is, you need to walk away. There are good dealers out there; people who really care that you are getting the boat of your dreams.

Seems to me that you could have saved yourself days of agonizing by talking to the dealer. We can debate the merits of the fishboxes here until the cows come home (and goodness knows we have), but the dealer is the guy who can say to you, "We'll yank that out and fix it or get another sent from the factory."

Taa-Daa! (that's the horn music that should be going off in your head right now)

If you're like most of us, you will take that shiny new boat out and whack a dock or one of your dumbass friends (perhaps named Bobby Joe) will jump into the fishbox and crack it. It's a boat - there will always be something to be messed with. The only people who don't have stuff to deal with on a boat are called FORMER boat owners. The rest of us are still crazy.

I had commented about a week into your adventure that you went from "I think I want a C-Dory" to "I found the right boat" faster than the norm (many of us take months to go through all the stages). Now you're in the "What If..." stage. As in: what if I buy this boat and the bottom falls out of it? What if I buy this boat and the first time I go out the engine explodes, I drift out to sea, and get eaten by a whale? What if I buy this boat, spend all this money that could have paid for my child's education, and find out I bought the wrong boat?

All scary propositions. And all of them are a reason to walk away. Dealers see this all the time... people get the I-wanna-buy-a-boat-crazies, then come to their senses. They go home and mow their lawns (or shovel their sidewalks this time of year if they live in the frozen northland), live lives of quiet desperation, and continue to be contributing members of society. They are no longer crazy. That little spark of insanity has gone out.

The rest of us here live lives of inane craziness. We ignore our lawns, scheme of ways to shuck our responsibilities so we can go out on our boats instead. We talk of "getting 4 mpg" as though that's a good thing. :crook We dress funny. People whisper about us behind our backs, but we don't care... we're out on our boats while they sit home and watch soap operas and game shows on TV. We don't know who did what on "Who Wants To Date My Great Dane?", but we can tell you about the great sunset we saw on the water yesterday. We find it hard to sleep if the bed isn't rocking. We're not sure what the date is, but we can tell you when high tide will occur today.

Crazy.

You come to this forum out of curiosity. You ask a few questions and get plenty of answers. Before long, you find that the people here make way more sense than those boring folks at work. This isn't a forum, Dude, this is the biggest group therapy session you've ever attended. And if this is crazy, we don't want to go back to being sane again. We've come to know "the great truth"... and now that you've been here a while, I'm going to share it with you:

It's a boat. It's not a car or a microwave or a TV. You're always going to be messing with it. And if something on it breaks... it's a boat. You fix it. Or, you call your new best friend, Joe-Bob, and he fixes it. Whatever it takes to get back out there again.

Crazy.

Oh, sure, there are some people here who are only half-crazy. They are able to keep a job and carry on conversations with the neighbors that don't ever use the words transom, pilothouse, bilge pump, gunnel, or chartplotter. They live productive lives and are able to assimilate well into society. But get them to a C-Brat gathering and they are just as crazy-ass as the rest of us.

You will hear about people who spend months living in the 100 or so square feet that these boats offer, and that will make perfect sense. Discussions of porta-potty vs fixed head will not only seem interesting, but you will feel compelled to participate. You will start to know people by their boat names... like Thataway Bob, SeaWolf Joe, TyBoo Mike, and a cast of characters that makes Joe-Bob seem like a perfectly normal name.

Bottom line: dealers love me or hate me 'cuz I speak the truth. ANY excuse to walk away from a boat will work. You can talk yourself out of it easily enough, because so little of this makes sense to people who aren't crazy.

It's a fishbox. Before long, it'll be full of bloody fish or soggy dock lines. It isn't a sign of the apocalypse or other catastrophic failure. It's fiberglass and it can be fixed. Don't call C-Dory because they don't really know how to talk to people. Oh, they're getting better... making brochures that show how we really use these boats... and on rare occasion someone from the factory posts here. They think they are just building boats. Talk to the dealer. He understands (or he should) that these are so much more than boats - they are dreams, aspirations, fantasies... they are the magic carpets that take us away from the real world. A good dealer will understand your concerns and be able to take care of them, and save you some sleepless nights. And the best part about the boat you're looking at: it's a NEW boat. After the dealer gets it set up just the way you want, YOU get to be the one who messes with it.

(Cue the Billy Joel music) "You may be right... I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for..."

Good luck with your decision. If you read this far, you're probably already infected with the lunacy.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

 

[drjohn71a]

Wannaboat,

I don't know how many used boats you've evaluated, but you'll not likely find a perfect, flawless, used boat.

I don't see anything on your list that isn't just normal wear and tear. Those matching port/starboard gelcoat defects could be the result of using one of those cargo stabilizers or cooler holder setups.

The fish boxes in this design, on all the TomCats, can allow entry of water via a capillary action. Water in the cockpit from washing nor running in heavy seas does not fill them rapidly. They are fish lockers - being wet is not a design flaw. They are below the water line to most extent. The fish boxes are an insert and are not supporting structure, and are not cored in the bottom/sides per my knowledge, so not likely a core entry problem. You are asking the C-Dory factory to fix a problem that has not occurred. I guess they could raise the bottom of the fish tanks to the top of the deck and then water would not want to enter them, but you'd have to walk around two big, fixed fish boxes all the time. If they bother you too much, have the doors fiberglassed down permanently.

The dented clamshell is a no brainer. That area can easily bump a dock. The anchor lockers can drain well just as it is - dented. They are cheap and easily replaced. I think you are really getting way too technical on this evaluation. Just buy a new boat if you want a new boat.

The stains in the deck wash pump area appear to come from the deck pump in your photo. Reclamp the hoses or take the whole pump system out and just get on your knees and wipe out the cabinet. You are going to have to wipe out your cabinets some time, even if they start out pristine.

The boat seems to have the cheap, minimal extra equipment. The Raymarine radar is a good radar. Why are you thinking it has to be replaced? I've used my Raymarine in the San Juans, Pacific and Atlantic oceans with no problems. The Honda electronic guages are nicer, but the analogs can suffice.

I am surprised at the apparent movement of transducers or whatever left the plugged holes in hull for a boat with so little hours. Maybe the dealer had one setup in and then a prospective owner wanted another. In any case, there is a thread on this site that explains how to epoxy entries into the core area. That is not a warranty problem either.

The anchor locker drain thing is designed for water from the chain locker to drain to the side though the bottom of the side compartments. I don't store anything in those side compartments so have had no problems with the designed drain setup. There is a thread explaining how to put a drain tube in the bottom of the forward side lockers so the center locker will drain thru them without wetting anything in them. While you may not agree with the original design, it does work, it is not a warranty defect.

You know, you could buy some brand of new boat that looks pristine upon initial inspection and find that some problems arise as you use it. Even a new boat will not be "perfect".

In summary, I don't see anything of a warranty nature in your evaluation. You should ask the dealer to fix the cosmetic problems, and the deckwash leak, or to reduce the price to reflect the current condition and the low level of accessories. You might be better off just getting the boat as is and borrow enough money to have an independent repair place fix the surface defects. I don't see a surface crack in the fish box as a significant problem, but I am assuming it is not wide open. Even if it leaked a bit, it would leak into the bilge.

Anyway, just decide if you want it, what you are willing to accept and fix, and if the dealer is lowering the price enough for you. I am thinking the dealer should go way way down to sell it as is since he'd have to invest some shop time to fix the surface defects, etc..

Good luck,

John

 

[Spike38]

Wow! A thunderous round of applause for "Wild Blue" and James TXSD! Such an ability to so accurately articulate that which a lot of us feel but have difficulty bringing to verbal expression! Thanks! That deserves preservation.

 

[marvin4239]

Wow! A thunderous round of applause for "Wild Blue" and James TXSD! Such an ability to so accurately articulate that which a lot of us feel but have difficulty bringing to verbal expression! Thanks! That deserves preservation.

I agree!!! I had a few things to do today banking, grocery shopping and stuff around the house. After reading Jim's post I decided to go for a boat ride instead!!! Thanks Jim from giving me motivation to put aside the trivial things for another C-Dory experience.

As far as the problems with the boat none appear to be really serious and something that should be addressed during the negotiating process with the dealer. On another line of thought Big Boys Playtoys in Palatka Florida (C-Dory Dealer) has had a brand new 2006 Tom Cat with 135 hondas for sale for quite a while for $106,000. Seems someone ordered it and then had some sort of health problem and didn't get the boat. If you decide against the boat you are currently looking at that might be another option although the one you are looking at appears to be a pretty good deal. Either way good luck with your decision.

 

[matt_unique]

.... On another line of thought Big Boys Playtoys in Palatka Florida (C-Dory Dealer) has had a brand new 2006 Tom Cat with 135 hondas for sale for quite a while for $106,000. Seems someone ordered it and then had some sort of health problem and didn't get the boat.....

They have had that boat for sale for a long time. There are definitely good deals to be had out there on Tomcats.

I just looked at your pictures. This boat needs some serious elbow grease but from the pictures I don't see any problems. Did you wipe a rag or something on the floor near the battery boxes? Was the structure sound (i.e. not bubbling or soft). They all get mold down there and in the sponsons that can be cleaned up. I bet that moisture came from hose washing the aft seat.

Stainless steel left uncovered in a boat yard will rush a bit. That too requires some elbow grease.

It almost looks like pieces of packing tape on those raised patches you mention on the transom. I would look inside with a flashlight to see if they were holes drilled all the way through the transom. As long as they are sealed good I see no problem.

This is a used boat and you should be getting a crazy good deal. Will the boat come with the full 10 year warranty?

 

[Sea Wolf]

wannaboat-

Boy, you're "getting the business" today, and in the several different ways that statement can be interpreted!

I think you called the fishboxes "live wells' in the early posts, right?

I can't easily tell where those defects in the boxes are...on the hull depressions or on the doors/covers? If they're on the covers, they can simply be replaced, otherwise, they can be fixed anyway.

This is a demo boat, so you can expect some wear and tear as well as a price reduction. Either accept that trade-off, or find a new boat instead...

If you're really obsessive-compulsive about the appearance/cosmetic issues and minor defects, one of two situations may be true:

1. You'll never be happy with the boat because it will never be "perfect", and no amount of fixing it will ever make it "right", or

2. You'll find "forever happiness" because there'll always be something to fix and keep you busy and occupied, constantly finding something imperfect to dwell upon.

Which is more like you? 1, 2, both, or neither?

Either way, you're still going to be crazy:

Just a simple crazy boater, or a crazy obsessive-compulsive boater.

I think you're had, either way!

Go look at the boat and talk to the dealer about all the issues. Find out how comfortable you are with the boat, the dealer, the assurances, and the "deal".

If you're still not happy or sure, go look at another "new" boat like the one mentioned, and look at it, talk to the dealer, go for a ride, and see what the "deal" would be.

Then take a long, thoughtful look inside yourself to see how happy or unhappy (really comfortable) you'd be with each boat, then decide.

If neither will ever make you happy, then bail, maybe you'll never be happy with any boat (?)

Good Luck!

Being crazy ain't easy!

Joe. :lol: :thup

 

[Mike...]

You are crazy. In the words of the great philosopher Jimmy Buffett: "If we weren't all crazy, we'd just go insane." You're buying a boat - that alone makes you darn near certifiable. Welcome to the asylum.

Jim, what a great post! I got quite the laugh out of it; thanks!

I actually have been talking to the dealer; just not specifically about the fish box issue other than to discuss that it exists. I was merely waiting for the survey before proceeding.

In the meantime, I wanted to run it by the experts here to get qualified opinions on how to deal with the problem. More recently, I wanted to run by my newfound concerns about Fluid Marine, which as I mentioned in an earlier post may be unfounded.

I actually went from I think I want a C-Dory boat to finding one in a little over a year. I just didn't speak up here until a few weeks ago.

In the end, I don't find this a scary proposition at all. Just trying to figure out how to proceed on the one issue that was a surprise.

I'll put you in the "don't worry about it" column.

Infected, I am. Thanks again for the post.
---
mike

 

[Mike...]

Wannaboat,
I don't know how many used boats you've evaluated, but you'll not likely find a perfect, flawless, used boat.

Agreed. And I don't expect to.

I guess I have somehow given the impression that I was worried about the little problems that showed up in the survey. I am really not; they are just things that I'll have fixed before the season. I do not find them at all relevant to whether I buy the boat or not.

The Raymarine radar is a good radar. Why are you thinking it has to be replaced?

Only because I am a nerd, and I want a system that is more nerdy.

There is a thread explaining how to put a drain tube in the bottom of the forward side lockers so the center locker will drain thru them without wetting anything in them.

Great, thanks! I'll go find it.

---
mike