The Sky is Falling

Global Warming: Valid concern or hysteria?

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I am not going to enter the Al Gore or the actual global warming issue. But there was a very good point made at the Gulf Coast gathering by our lecturer. He pointed out that the ecology of Apalachacola Bay would change dramatically if the waters were significantly decreased from the Apalachicola River (read Atlanta's water supply).

We have currently have a paper mill which has been operating without a valid permit since 1988!--this still causes significant pollution of Perdido Bay. Despite a recent adverse legal ruling--the Florida DEP allows this polution to occur.

I worked with RiverKeepers, until I learned that one of their sponser's purposes was to make money from law suites, rather than to really clean up the environment.

Sometimes we find that attempts to improve our waters become involved in politics and greed. That is still happening today. We have to sort out what is valid science and what is politically or economically motivated. It can be very difficult.
 
Thanks so much, Roger, for your very well-informed and cogent replies. Also, El and Bill, I very much appreciate your non-partisan message in favor of environmental awareness and concern.

The tendency towards ad-hominem attacks is great. In all walks of the media we are bombarded with messages that stray from logical discourse and deal primarily in shouting and attacks on the person. If there is one thing I try to work on with my students in developing their research papers, it is the necessity at looking at a wide range of sources to see what the consensus is among respected people in the field.

In my mind, one of the great dangers of the Internet and the ongoing splintering of the media into a million different sources is the ability to find someone in support of whatever your opinion may be, no matter how farfetched or peripheral to the mainstream debate.

This has given birth to a whole generation of conspiracy theorists who spend the bulk of their time on the Internet or watching their favorite cable station that supports their preconceived notions.

The scholarly idea of having to replicate studies before the findings are published, or the concept of juried journals was developed for a reason.

It's clear that global warming is a reality and that man has accelerated the process. The only question remaining is what we are willing to do about it.

Gary
 
ryder":257hk68r said:
That should be the conversation not attacking Gore because he is a democrat.
Jim D - Where did that come from? Who are you talking about? Me? What makes you think I am not a democrat? And how do my political leanings have anything to do with this? I do not want to turn this into a personal thing, but you seem bent on it.

Just for your information, I was campaign chairman for a democrat running for the legislature here in Washington State a few years ago. Since then I have supported and contributed to some democrats.

I could make assumptions about you, but I will not.


ryder":257hk68r said:
If you read your posts you will see that you did insult everyone that believes Gore. Roger did not take you out of context nor did I. You original post in this thread does imply that anyone who believes Gore must not be a a very logical thinker and is easily duped.
I am not shy about saying what I think. If I wanted to say the people. all the people, most people or any other phrase that made it clear that I was including all, I would have. I said many people so it would be clear that I was not including all. If you are not able to distinguish the difference, then there is no point to continuing this interchange.

As I said on another thread, I hope you enjoy your new boat.

Good By

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Dave dlt.gif
 
oldgrowth":1sohf2ya said:
iggy":1sohf2ya said:
Dave -

What does any of this have to do with the Columbia shuttle???

I mean, maybe it does, but it certainly isn't clear from your brief comment. Did the Columbia self-destruct because they banned CFC's? Or because there was not enough ozone in the air? Or . . . . ?

iggy
iggy - while this is common knowledge for many of us, I can understand why the public is un-aware of it. Your mainstream media did very little to cover this issue.

In a nutshell . . . the foam insulation for the external fuel tanks on the Space Shuttles use to be made with Freon. After the Freon ban, they quit using Freon (after all NASA was a big proponent to the Freon ozone hole theory) so for political correctness there are seven dead astronauts.

In 97, the first flight using the Freon free foam, there was 11 times as much damage to the tiles caused by the foam breaking off the fuel tanks as there was when using the Freon foam and it has continued, even after the Columbia disaster. NASA tried rig the investigations so they could keep certain facts from the public.

Do a Google search with columbia shuttle disaster freon in the search string and you will probably be surprised with some of the hits. You will also find cooks on both sides. There will be a lot of miss information from what you would think are legitimate news worthy sites. When you look at their supporting documentation you will find they quote out of content or flat out lie.
You decide for your self, for me it is easy to put 2+2 together and get 4.

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Dave dlt.gif

Dave,

I did a search on the above terms and found a lot of noise from sources that I don't necessarily consider incredibly reliable. Most of the sources seem to lead back to either Rush Limbaugh or Steven Milloy neither of whom I consider to be well educated in science. Many sources do quote some comments from the Nobel prize winner Douglas D. Osheroff, a physics professor at Stanford who had some dissenting opinions with regards to the official report on the accident. I just sent him a personal email to see if I can get the story from the proverbial "horses mouth". I let you and everyone else know if and how he responds.

If you have other source of information on this that you think should be tracked down, please let me know. However, at this point I remain skeptical that there is a strong connection between the use of CFC's to make the foam and the Columbia disaster. The main problems seem to be with a myopic view of safety at NASA and an inability to do simple things like image the shuttle while it was in flight to determine the extent of damage.

Best,


Roger

edited to correct challenger to Columbia
 
Dave

Don't let the narrow political views of a very small minority stop you from expressing your views on this or any other subject. I for one value and enjoy reading your perspective as I have many of the others. Especially El and Bills but also the view points of Gary, Roger, Marvin, Dotnmarty and several others. My favorite was the last sentence of Thataway Bob and He wouldn't even comment on the main topic, but I though it was more then fitting for the subject as a whole. "We have to sort out what is valid science and what is politically or economically motivated. IT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT" That really sums it up for me too. I like many of you have spent considerable time studying this subject and at present am still unconvinced that our present global warming is due primarily to man. To me the cost of trying to rectify this is just to high without more study and debate. Without the guaranteed inclusion of China, India and Russia its pretty well a moot point anyway.

In the mean time I will continue to listen to the view points opposite of mine and its possible I will change my mind in the future. The one thing absolutely for sure is my personal political views or religion or lack there of will not influence my opinion either way. I only mention religion because I feel to many this has become there religion. There is not a large need for proven science when you have just mainlined an overdose of faith and feeling. When anyone states that Global warming is an absolute fact (truth) they have abandoned the principles of the scientific method and "The Theory" has became a religion instead of an hypothesis.

Jay
 
Roger - I don’t know how you do research on the internet, but I don’t read the blogs or known biased sites for an un biased opinion. I did not find any sites quoting Rush Limbaugh except blogs and the likes of Media Matters. Media Matters even managed to get the facts wrong and linked their viewers to a NASA document that supposedly said the area of the fuel tanks where the foam came off, still used Freon insulation. Was unable to find the document. One NASA document I did find had some rational (which I disagree with) for NASA for not wanting an outside investigation of the disaster and for keeping certain facts from the public. So then I thought I would read what Rush Limbaugh said about this, seeing as you brought him up. I found his site and I was shocked to find he was miss quoted in almost every case by media matters and the blogers. As a matter of fact he pretty much said what I have clipped and pasted below here, (all from news sources such as The Boston Globe, Fox News, The UK Guardian and NASA documents). I did not quote Rush anywhere here. If you want to know what he said, I would suggest you go to his site, not Media Matters, the blogers or the New York Times. They almost always get it wrong. I am told he has a radio show on one of the Seattle Radio stations, so you could listen to him, then you will get the quotes straight from the horses mouth.

You just have to learn to be a better researcher Roger. :wink

There is no order here, I just clipped and pasted as I found them. One thing I found interesting, NASA did a computer analyses of the launch footage and foam breaking off (underlined below). Clearly the best and brightest of our scientest missed the mark with their computer analyses.


In a 1997 report, NASA mechanical systems engineer Greg Katnik "noted that the 1997 mission, STS-87, was the first to use a new method of 'foaming' the tanks, one designed to address NASA's goal of using environmentally friendly products.

While Columbia was still in orbit, NASA engineers analyzed launch footage frame-by-frame and were unable to determine for certain whether the shuttle was damaged by the insulation. But they ran computer analyses for different scenarios and different assumptions about the weight of the foam, its speed, and where under the left wing it might have hit, even looking at the possibility of tiles missing over an area of about 7 inches by 30 inches, NASA said.

The half-page engineering report -- issued on Day 12 of the 16-day flight -- indicated "the potential for a large damage area to the tile." But the analyses showed "no burn-through and no safety-of-flight issue," the report concluded.

"We were in complete concurrence," Michael Kostelnik, a NASA spaceflight office deputy, said at a news conference Monday with NASA's top spaceflight official, William Readdy.

"The best and brightest engineers we have who helped design and build this system looked carefully at all the analysis and the information we had at this time, and made a determination this was not a safety-of-flight issue."

No one on the team, to Dittemore's knowledge, had any reservations about the conclusions and no one reported any concerns to a NASA hot line set up for just such occasions.

"Now I am aware, here two days later, that there have been some reservations expressed by certain individuals and it goes back in time," Dittemore said. "So we're reviewing those reservations again as part of our data base. They weren't part of our playbook at the time because they didn't surface.

The Columbia sustained significant tile damage in 1997, after NASA stopped using the coolant Freon in production of foam that coats the external fuel tank, a NASA engineer said at the time. The change was made because of the potential environmental damage Freon can cause.

In his December 1997 report, Greg Katnik, a mechanical systems engineer at Kennedy Space Center, raised the possibility that the new foam may have had some unknown characteristics that were not compatible with the severe conditions of takeoff.

The Marshall Space Flight Center later concluded that the absence of Freon led to the detachment of the foam,

Doubts were raised by workers at the space agency, almost immediately, but went unheeded. Between 1997 and 2003, NASA was eligible for an exemption from the freon ban, but they did not take advantage of it, seemingly due to either public relations pressure or a lack of proper care. In either case, it seems reasonable to conclude that the change in coating procedures directly contributed to the loss of Columbia.

The foam incidents are reminiscent of the circumstances surrounding the first Space Shuttle disaster. It is widely known that the 1986 explosion of the Challenger shortly after lift off was the result of a faulty O-ring which allowed hot gases to escape from the solid rocket booster and pierce the skin of the external fuel tank. What is less well-known - according to the report cited above - is that the faulty O-ring was also a "replacement part".

For the Challenger's mission, NASA had been forced to stop using a putty used to insulate the O-rings from hot gases (which had worked during the first nine flights) because the manufacturer stopped using asbestos in the paste. The manufacturer had bowed to public pressure to stop using the flame-retarding material it had produced since the Second World War.

The foam and the tiles have been a source of concern at Nasa practically from the start. Over the years, foam insulation often damaged the tiles. In fact, soon after Nasa stopped using Freon in the foam for environmental reasons, Columbia sustained significant tile damage during a 1997 liftoff because of flyaway foam, according to a report by Nasa engineer Gregory Katnik.


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Dave dlt.gif
 
Jay - Thank you for your kind words. The arrows coming at me were fast and furious for a while. I am going to spend more time on the boating section of this site. I will see you out there.

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Dave dlt.gif
 
I never knew about the freon deal that Dave brought to light. I can tell you my personal experience at the Cape building a vertical assembly building in the late 80's. Cape Canaveral and NASA in general at that time had the worse quality control I have ever seen. Now I'm sure after I was long gone they did a lot of additional testing but during my stay it was pretty lax.

As far as the freon perhaps it is or was at the time the best substance to use to create the foam. Kind of like asbestos was the best thing to use for insulation at the time. Today thousands of people myself included suffer from asbestosis from breathing this crap. I'd guess at least 25% of the people my age that worked in my industry suffer from it today.

On another note Cape Canaveral is one beautiful island. The wild life their is increditable. I saw whales, deer, wild hogs, turkey, alligators and about any type of wild life you can imagine from the top of the structure I worked on. I've heard they have even spotted Florida Panther there which are nearly extinct. It's sort of as if the newest technology and nature have sort of blended together. I can sometimes see the Launches from my house if the sky is clear. While I was there I saw a launch up close (5 miles away) and it was increditable. If you ever have the opportunity don't miss seeing this.
 
Roger - we always get to hear your interpretation of articles only available to a few. Well here is the entire article you referred to, so people can read it themselves and make their own determination. I will also add this; by the article, it is apparent that scientist are already working on a new model to prove that man is the cause of the ozone hole. Instead of looking at it with an open mind, too many scientist start with a preconceived notion that man is the problem and build models that back up their biases.

Now Roger before you jump on me, I did not say the scientist, all scientist, most scientist or any other phrase that would imply any thing other than too many scientist.

One other observation, true science is not a consensus. A true scientist does not do a study involving a lot of theory based on assumptions that cannot be proven, and then take a pole to see how many other scientist agree with him. If enough will agree with him, then it is presented as fact. This is not true science; I would call it snake oil science. The true scientist looks at something that is not understood, and then tries to figure it out factually and provably. Sometimes they are successful and mankind has benefited from it.

I really do not like posting such large articles because they get to be boring. It will be my last complete article posted.


"Chemists poke holes in ozone theory: Reaction data of crucial chloride compounds called into question." - "As the world marks 20 years since the introduction of the Montreal Protocol to protect the ozone layer, Nature has learned of experimental data that threaten to shatter established theories of ozone chemistry. If the data are right, scientists will have to rethink their understanding of how ozone holes are formed and how that relates to climate change.

Long-lived chloride compounds from anthropogenic emissions of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) are the main cause of worrying seasonal ozone losses in both hemispheres. In 1985, researchers discovered a hole in the ozone layer above the Antarctic, after atmospheric chloride levels built up. The Montreal Protocol, agreed in 1987 and ratified two years later, stopped the production and consumption of most ozone-destroying chemicals. But many will linger on in the atmosphere for decades to come. How and on what timescales they will break down depend on the molecules' ultraviolet absorption spectrum (the wavelength of light a molecule can absorb), as the energy for the process comes from sunlight. Molecules break down and react at different speeds according to the wavelength available and the temperature, both of which are factored into the protocol.

So Markus Rex, an atmosphere scientist at the Alfred Wegener Institute of Polar and Marine Research in Potsdam, Germany, did a double-take when he saw new data for the break-down rate of a crucial molecule, dichlorine peroxide (Cl2O2). The rate of photolysis (light-activated splitting) of this molecule reported by chemists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California1, was extremely low in the wavelengths available in the stratosphere - almost an order of magnitude lower than the currently accepted rate.

"This must have far-reaching consequences," Rex says. "If the measurements are correct we can basically no longer say we understand how ozone holes come into being." What effect the results have on projections of the speed or extent of ozone depletion remains unclear.

The rapid photolysis of Cl2O2 is a key reaction in the chemical model of ozone destruction developed 20 years ago2 (see graphic). If the rate is substantially lower than previously thought, then it would not be possible to create enough aggressive chlorine radicals to explain the observed ozone losses at high latitudes, says Rex. The extent of the discrepancy became apparent only when he incorporated the new photolysis rate into a chemical model of ozone depletion. The result was a shock: at least 60% of ozone destruction at the poles seems to be due to an unknown mechanism, Rex told a meeting of stratosphere researchers in Bremen, Germany, last week.

Other groups have yet to confirm the new photolysis rate, but the conundrum is already causing much debate and uncertainty in the ozone research community. "Our understanding of chloride chemistry has really been blown apart," says John Crowley, an ozone researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Chemistry in Mainz, Germany.

"Until recently everything looked like it fitted nicely," agrees Neil Harris, an atmosphere scientist who heads the European Ozone Research Coordinating Unit at the University of Cambridge, UK. "Now suddenly it's like a plank has been pulled out of a bridge."

The measurements at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory were overseen by Stanley Sander, a chemist who chairs a NASA panel for data evaluation. Every couple of years, the panel recommends chemical kinetics and photochemical data for use in atmosphere studies. Until the revised photolysis rate has been evaluated, which won't be before the end of next year, "modellers must make up their minds about what to do," says Sander. One of the problems with checking the data is that the absorption spectra of chloride compounds are technically challenging to determine. Sander's group used a new technique to synthesize and purify Cl2O2. To avoid impurities and exclude secondary reactions, the team trapped the molecule at low temperatures, then slowly warmed it up.

"Reactions in experimental chambers are one thing - the free atmosphere is something else," says Joe Farman, one of the scientists who first quantified the ozone hole over Antarctica3. "There's no doubt that ozone disappears at up to 3% a day - whether or not we completely understand the chemistry." But he adds that insufficient control of substances such as halon 1301, used as a flame suppressor, and HCFC22, a refrigerant, is a bigger threat to the success of the Montreal Protocol than are models that don't match the observed losses.

Meanwhile, atmosphere researchers have started to think about how to reconcile observations of ozone depletion with the new chemical models. Several thermal reactions, or combinations of reactions, could fill the gap. Sander's group has started to study possible candidates one by one - but so far without success.

Rex thinks that a chemical pathway involving a Cl2O2 isomer - a molecule with the same atoms but a different structure - might be at play. But even if the basic chemical model of ozone destruction is upheld, the temperature dependency of key reactions in the process could be very different - or even opposite - from thought. This could have dramatic consequences for the understanding of links between climate change and ozone loss, Rex says.

The new measurements raise "intriguing questions", but don't compromise the Montreal Protocol as such, says John Pyle, an atmosphere researcher at the University of Cambridge. "We're starting to see the benefits of the protocol, but we need to keep the pressure on." He says that he finds it "extremely hard to believe" that an unknown mechanism accounts for the bulk of observed ozone losses.

Nothing currently suggests that the role of CFCs must be called into question, Rex stresses. "Overwhelming evidence still suggests that anthropogenic emissions of CFCs and halons are the reason for the ozone loss. But we would be on much firmer ground if we could write down the correct chemical reactions."

Quirin Schiermeier

1. Pope, F. D., Hansen, J. C., Bayes, K. D., Friedl, R. R. & Sander, S. P. J. Phys. Chem. A 111, 4322-4332 (2007).
2. Molina, L. T. & Molina, M. J. J. Phys. Chem. 91, 433-436 (1987).
3. Farman, J. C., Gardiner, B. G. & Shanklin, J. D. Nature 315, 207-210 (1985).

Roger - PS: did you hear what Rush talked about today? I very seldom get to listen to him and was hoping you listened today and could fill me in.


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Dave dlt.gif
 
Hunkydory":17jd3j3o said:
The one thing absolutely for sure is my personal political views or religion or lack there of will not influence my opinion either way. I only mention religion because I feel to many this has become there religion. There is not a large need for proven science when you have just mainlined an overdose of faith and feeling. When anyone states that Global warming is an absolute fact (truth) they have abandoned the principles of the scientific method and "The Theory" has became a religion instead of an hypothesis.
Jay - this morning in my waking state, your paragraph above fell on me like a ton of bricks. I had been trying to figure out why Roger’s sentence quoted below had “personal level” in it. Now it makes sense to me and I can see why people would be upset with me. I will have to do a better job of selecting my words. I know if I were attacked because of my belief in my personal God, I would be upset. It is upsetting to be attacked on things you believe in on faith alone. I will have to modify my argument somewhat, just not my beliefs.

Thanks for showing me the light.

rogerbum":17jd3j3o said:
Finally, when you attack Al Gore and those who believe in the message on a personal level

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Dave dlt.gif
 
What a nice person you are, Oldgrowth. We spoken and very kindly written.

Pity more folks are not as well informed as you.

I've had to laugh about the 'hole' on the ozone layer for decades.

The 'hole' shows up when it's winter in the Antarctic and ozone only is created through reaction with the sun. No sun = less ozone!

The ozone layer is about 12" thick (yes, inches), and the 'hole' is merely a measured THINNING of this layer - typically 10%. In other words the ozone 'hole' is about 10.8 " thick or 90% FUNCTIONAL!. Historically the ozone 'hole' was first measured in the early 1900's - long before CFC's and the like.

There just are not research dollars being given to scientists who say the ozone 'hole' and global warming are just what they are: a crock.

Far too many sheeple out there. Not enough rugged individuals like Oldgrowth. We are all fortunate to have him on this site. :beer
 
Big Bad Ben":2t2gzram said:
Far too many sheeple out there. Not enough rugged individuals like Oldgrowth. We are all fortunate to have him on this site. :beer
What is that old saying from the work world? Oh yeah, there are two things I don't like to talk about at work, Politics and Religion. Well, that's how I feel about this site. It's not about being one of "too many sheeple" around here, Big Bad Ben. It has to do about not wanting to deal with the varied and disparate views and opinions of others on this boating site. I realize that I have the option of bypassing the threads I don't want to deal with, but all the same I still cringe reading some of the views expressed on this site as well as others. In my view, it's not too many sheeple but maybe too many Ostrich's, you know, of the head in the sand variety. The bottomline, people are going to believe what they want to believe. IMHO

Peter
C-Dancer
 
Politics and Religion????

I merely congratulated a member of this site for his wise views, well stated and well reasoned.

I also stated that there are too many sheeple out there and there is a big place -perhaps you are there? Is the food good?

I mentioned qualified science that is a century old and you single me out regarding Politics and Religion?

Where is the politics?

Where is the religion?

It's science.

The name of this thread is:

The Sky Is Falling.

The sky is falling? Simple. Sell sky.

:wink:
 
Dave,

It's a shame to hear that your interpretation is that any scientists are " already working on a new model to prove that man is the cause of the ozone hole. Instead of looking at it with an open mind, too many scientist start with a preconceived notion that man is the problem and build models that back up their biases" with the implication that the primary connection between the ozone hole and CFCs is somehow tenuous. As I pointed out previously, nearly every scientist in the field who has looked at the sum total of ALL the data concludes that it is EXTREMELY likely that there is a connection between CFC's in the atmosphere (which were put there by man) and the ozone hole. I use the phrase "extremely likely" since all connections drawn in science have varying degrees of certainty and one should never hold any scientific belief any more tightly than the data supports.

However, there is a TON of data on this - in particular, extremely strong correlations between increases local concentrations of CFCs (and CFC derived product) in the stratosphere and corresponding decreases ozone levels in the same regions. I met some of the people involved with making those measurements when I was doing my postdoc at Caltech (I was in the department of Geology and Planetary Sciences and heard a few seminars on the topic about 17 years ago). You'd be hard pressed to find a high quality scientist who is familiar with all the data to argue that CFC use and ozone depletion are not linked. But go ahead and believe what you wish.
 
I'd really LOVE to see the data the indicates the ozone layer is 12" thick! $20's says that no one can find said data. HOWEVER if all the ozone in the upper atmosphere was compressed to the pressures at sea level, it would be fairly thin.

A few quick questions
How many people making apparently factual science statements on this thread have taken:
1) Any course in science?
2) A college college course in science?
3) A college degree in science?
4) An advanced degree in science?

OK now:
1) how many people would have their boat engine worked on by someone with little training or real experience in marine mechanics?
2) How many people want their car worked on by someone with little training or real experience in auto mechanics?
3) How many people want their house wired by someone without training in both the practical aspects of house wiring AND the relevant codes?
4) There heart operated on by someone with little medical training? (how about brain surgery?)

Apparently, science is somehow different...... :lol:
 
Just curious? who is Rush Limbaugh? Unless you mean the guy that was busted for abusing drugs?

Must be someone else.

Jim D
 
Roger
How many people making apparently factual science statements on this thread have taken:
1) Any course in science?
2) A college college course in science?
3) A college degree in science?
4) An advanced degree in science?

answer..none.....likley qualifications....ditto heads


:wink:

Jim D
 
Big Bad Ben,

Read my post again. I was referring to my preferences, not yours.
Jazzmanic":zczyji8q said:
Oh yeah, there are two things I don't like to talk about at work, Politics and Religion. Well, that's how I feel about this site.
In other words, I prefer not to comment on politics and religion at work or on websites for the very reason that my personal view can get misconstrued and because those subjects tend to rile people up. I never singled you out about talking about those subjects. What I did refer to was your comment about sheeple.

Peter
 
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