Sunbeam ~ C-Dory 22 Cruiser

Well this isn't a P-trap like on a kitchen sink (if that's what you're thinking of), but rather a special trap (called a P-trap by Attwood) that is specifically designed by Attwood for a fuel vent. I think it functions more like a dorade vent, although I have not cut one apart to see exactly how it's set up. Let me see if they have a sketch on their site.

Oh right, there is a drawing on that dimensions chart I have in my album. You can see it below; it's sort of like a hard anti-siphon loop instead of a bulkier one made by hose.

Attwood_1674_fuel_vent.jpg
Here is what they say about it:

FEATURES:
The Attwood water-resistant 90° fuel tank vent is designed for permanently-installed fuel systems and is intended for use with 5/8" vent hose. Hull thickness should be 9/16" maximum [added by me: or 1" maximum if using the flush-mounted vent]
The unique design helps to avoid ingestion of water into the fuel tank under normal sea conditions and washdown.
The design includes a series of baffles and traps to allow air to move freely while reducing the possibility of water splashing back into the tank.
Eliminates the need for an anti-siphon loop in the vent hose and allows a more direct routing of the hose to the fuel tank requiring less hose for installation.
Meets ABYC H-24 ventilation specifications.
 
Sunbeam":15xcb7tk said:
vent_backing_spacer.jpg

Sunbeam :hot

Sunbeam,
Next to your backing for the vent is a bus bar terminal, which appears to be attached with weldmount (Good idea). I am doing some electrical upgrades and want to clean up all the extraneous wires going to the battery. Would I wire in a buss and have the electronics go to that rather than the battery? What gauge wire do you use from the battery to the buss? What is the amp rating and make/model of the buss?

Also, I am curious how your transom drain plug is coming along. I am thinking of doing the same as your splashwell drain using the fiberglass tubing. Keep up the great work. :smile
 
Hi Grazer,

Grazer":1mgivdbk said:
Next to your backing for the vent is a bus bar terminal, which appears to be attached with weldmount (Good idea).

The Weld Mounts have been working out splendidly - I really like them (plus other shapes too, like footman loops, etc.).

Grazer":1mgivdbk said:
I am doing some electrical upgrades and want to clean up all the extraneous wires going to the battery. Would I wire in a buss and have the electronics go to that rather than the battery? What gauge wire do you use from the battery to the buss? What is the amp rating and make/model of the buss?

Let me just start by saying that I'm not any kind of electrical guru, and I had some consultation on my system from a former C-Dory dealer (Les at EQ marine). Although I did want to understand the system - and I did have some specific requests (battery monitor, plus I didn't want anything but the batteries mounted to the bottom of the locker - I wanted all the components on the "walls"), I'm still not very "expert" on it (why I consulted with someone who was!). But I'll explain what I have to the best of my ability along with some notes.

1) The boat came to me with two flooded-cell Group 24 batteries, and the typical 1-2-Both switch - all in the starboard lazarette. The batteries were old, and I wanted to change things a bit, and add a battery monitor, and so....

I removed the old batteries and their trays - the trays were fastened into core (the locker bottom), so I overdrilled all the holes and filled them with thickened epoxy. (Then I planned where the new batteries would go and I made new hold-down choices, but I'll cover that in a later post with photos.)

2) Batteries
I wanted to go with flooded cell again, but it seemed like the best arrangement of things in the lazarette meant it would be hard to check/add water, so I ultimately went with AGM's. I decided to go with a dedicated start bank (one battery), and a dedicated house bank (one battery). For the house I went with the largest (amp hours) battery that my alternator could reasonably re-charge (the limiting factor), and that turned out to be a Group 31 battery (basically the same physical size as a Group 27, but more amp hours).

I decided to try a smaller battery for the engine start, but there is room for a Group 24 if that doesn't work out. I forget what I have in there now (will have to look) but maybe it's a Group U-1? I went with the one that had the most CCA, and was close to what Yamaha calls for (although not quite as many CCA, hence planning space for a larger battery if it turns out I want to change).

3) Switch
I went with a Blue Sea Mini switch of the type that has Off-On-Combine, along with a Blue Sea ACR (automatic charging relay). With this setup, basically I just turn it to "On" when I want to use the boat, and "Off" when I want it off, and the ACR will always charge the start battery first/until it's topped up, and will then start to charge the house battery. So no need to choose a bank or change the switch while underway. The combine function is not normally used, but is there if needed.

Switch is Blue Sea 6011:
6011_182x182.jpg


ACR is Blue Sea 7610
387.png


By the way, you'll notice (I did) that Blue Sea has a system called "Add-a-Battery" that already has a similar switch and ACR bundled together. The reason I didn't go with that is because it's bundled with the "large" switch and I wanted the Mini switch, so I bought them separately. I see that Blue Sea has a new "Add-a-Battery" mini coming out in Spring 2013 that has the Mini switch and a Mini ACR. The Mini ACR is rated for 65 amps whereas the "regular" one (I have) is rated to 120 amps, IIRC. Probably the Mini one would work fine, but I don't think it was available last summer when I bought my components. The new Mini Add-a-Battery (Mini switch plus Mini ACR) will be Blue Sea #7649

4) Bus Bar, etc.
Instead of a positive bus bar there is a Blue Sea Safety Hub. It's got built in fuses and etc. (not totally clear on how this choice would compare to a positive bus bar). On the negative side everything goes to the shunt for the battery monitor and from there to the negative bus bar that you saw in the photo above.

SafetyHub 100 is Blue Sea #7725
7725_cover_0N_182x182.jpg


Bus bar is Blue Sea 2300 (I think - I'll double check this one)
2300_182x182.jpg


Battery monitor is Victron BMV600S (I've had a similar-function battery monitor on a previous boat and like the detailed info it gives).

188_1.jpg


The above gauge goes in the cabin (or wherever you want it), but the shunt is the part that goes in the electrical/lazarette. It's the size of a small candy bar and has two lugs for in/out plus a Cat 5 type cable and one other power wire.

[Edited to add: Oh, I see you asked about wire gauge. I want to say the "big" wires are around a #6, but I'll have to look and see. Perhaps I can post a few photos of the lazarette so you can see it all together.]

Grazer":1mgivdbk said:
Also, I am curious how your transom drain plug is coming along. I am thinking of doing the same as your splashwell drain using the fiberglass tubing. Keep up the great work. :smile

Thanks for the encouragement :thup. The transom drain is all done except for re-gelcoating the sump and actually fastening in the drain. I had this idea I would wait until it was done and then post about it, but it's a rainy/windy day so maybe I'll just write up what I have so far and post it later today. I'm really happy with how it came out.

Sunbeam :hot
 
Here are a few photos of my 22's starboard lazarette, which is where the batteries, switches, etc. live. These were taken during the installation, so everything is not completely done (labeled, secured, etc.), but it gives the basic idea. I didn't want components or wires on the locker bottom.

Safety hub and ACR on the inboard (splashwell) side of the locker). The blue blur on the right is the house battery.
IMG_3855.jpg

Battery switch and negative bus on the outboard side - the shunt is just out of view to the right.
IMG_3853.jpg

Battery-monitor shunt further aft on the outboard side - not completely wired yet. The grey Cat 5 type cable is what goes up into the cabin and then just clicks into the gauge face unit. It will be secured to the underside of the deck (after photo taken).
IMG_3854.jpg

I used Weld Mount studs to mount all of the components. Some things don't lend themselves well to the studs, so for those things I mounted Starboard™ panels with the Weld Mounts and then fastened the items to the panels.

Around the edges are glimpses of why I always end up with fourteen projects going at once :crook I see things I want to upgrade, and it "makes sense" to do them at a particular time ("while you're in there), which is always the same time as the original upgrade. (e.g. new lazarette hatches, cut back core around edges and fill with thickened epoxy, make openings slightly smaller for better fit of new hatches, add backing plates to stern cleats, replace bilge pump through hull, etc. etc.)
 
Why not go with all batteries the same size? This is certainly advisable from a charging stand point, since you put the ACR between the smaller starting battery and the house battery. Also put in as large a house battery as you want. The alternator output should not be limit on the size of the battery. There are good battery chargers (which I believe you are putting in) which work on 110 Volts, and will top off the batteries--which the alternator probably will not when cruising.
 
thataway":221np2cz said:
Why not go with all batteries the same size? This is certainly advisable from a charging stand point, since you put the ACR between the smaller starting battery and the house battery. Also put in as large a house battery as you want. The alternator output should not be limit on the size of the battery. There are good battery chargers (which I believe you are putting in) which work on 110 Volts, and will top off the batteries--which the alternator probably will not when cruising.

Hmm, well I will have to ask the person I consulted with on the design of the system for some of the answers, but I will try to answer what I can for now:

1) Batteries not same size.
I wanted a large battery for the house, but didn't need a battery that large for the engine start. I'm used to something similar on a sailboat, where the engine start bank is small and the house bank as large is is practical, so it seemed "normal" to me. And from what I understood this was not a problem due to how the ACR works. I will double check on this and report back. Did you see something in the wiring photos that looks wrong?

2) House battery size.
I was cautioned against putting in a larger house battery (in fact this was slightly over the recommended number of amp hours already) because, if I have this right, you have to not size it too much larger than the engine alternator can re-charge on a reasonable day. I suppose this relates back to something I do understand from sailing days, which is that it's not good for the battery to consistently not get charged all the way up between uses. There may be more to it, or I may be completely off and misunderstood. I'll find out.

3) Charger
I don't have a charger. At least in the past, I have not tended to spend much time in marinas (I like to anchor out). That said, I'm not against a charger (and my use pattern may change with the C-Dory), and I did consider one, but just decided to leave it out for now as I have/had other "upgrade fish to fry." If I do put in a charger at some point in time, I'm not sure I would want to have to count on it to be available to bring my house bank up to charge, since I don't know how often I'll have any place to plug it in. So I wanted to keep the house bank sized to the charging methods I have available on the hook (and for now that's the engine alternator(s) only).

As I mentioned above, this is not my "best" area in terms of being supremely confident I know what I'm doing (to put it mildly!). So there may be some flaw in my thinking above and/or I may have misunderstood the advice I got. Thanks for asking because maybe there is something I can/should improve.

Sunbeam :hot
 
You do want to get a charger, or at least subject the batteries to a good charger on occasion, since you will charge to about 80 to 85% with the alternator on the engine. The battery really likes to be 100% Charged. Even with my long distance cruising boats, I had big battery chargers, which I used to top off the batteries with the 120V generator regularly.

It is best if both batteries are the same size; engine vs house. The if the engine is a U !, then it is marginally sized for your outboard, and will be over charged as you charge the larger house battery.

With the house, you need to bring it up to 100% charge--and the alternator will just to do that during normal cruising. If you have a 16 amp alternator output, and a cruising day is 4 hours, that means that you can put out about 12 amps or less, since you have the amount of power used by the engine electrical, plus the electronics you are using. (another 4 amps per hour?)--so maybe 8 amps available. Thus you would have 32 amp hours available--and if you never discharge more than 50% (12.2 volts)--you would only have a 64 amp hour battery.

Best to go with a 100 or 120 amp hour battery, and use solar to keep it topped off. You may not stay in marinas, but you do camp, and have the boat at places where you can plug into mains power and top off the battery., to prolong its life. If you operate a 110 amp hour battery at the top 30 amp hours it will last a longtime, with only about 30 % discharge. If you operate a 60 amp hour battery at 30 amp hours cycle, then you will be 50% discharging it each day. When you start out you will have a fully charged battery, and more power available. Small solar panels are cheap and will allow to keep the battery topped off.

If you don't want to buy a built i charger, then buy one of the West Marine portable 30 amp units. They will charge at either 2 or 5 amps, 30 amps or boost at 75 amps. They are a very good 3 stage charger and will work from 30 to 300 amp hour battery. This is what I used on the 120 amp hour AGM battery I used specifically for the freezer this summer on the C Dory 22.
 
Oh, goodie, a battery charging discussion. OK, here's a couple of thoughts on battery charging.

First, why not have different size battery banks, as long as they're both the same kind (deep discharge lead-acid, for example)? Journey On has a group 30 starting/backup battery and a bank of 2 ea golf cart batteries, about as disparate as you can get.

When the engine alternator is running, and the battery switch is set to both, the input voltage is the same for both batteries. The lower-state-of-charge battery will get the most current, because it's internal impedance will be lower, since it's discharged more. As that battery state-of-charge increases and the terminal voltage rises, the other battery will get a larger share of the available charge current, until both are at the same fully charged voltage. At that time they start to gas, so check water levels often.

All the ACR does is provide isolation to the starting battery until the alternator voltage increases to 13.0 volts for 90 sec. That's the same as my turning the manual switch to both after the engine starts. Battery size differential doesn't matter.

In my sailing days, I too worried about charging the batteries fully, because I didn't run the engine enough. I installed a 200 amp alternator and then found that the battery current (which is what charges the batteries,) tapered off rapidly, so the batteries were never fully charged before I shut down the engine. All I needed was a 50 amp alternator that I could run for a long time. And now that I have a powerboat, that's what I have.

Even when we've spent the night anchored out (and the refrigerator running) the voltmeter climbs to 14 VDC quickly after I start the outboard, and if we're going over a couple of hours, I've seen the voltage climb to ~14.5 VDC. What I really want is a voltage controller for the Honda outboard, and they do sell them. I don't NEED one though.

If you're anchored for a couple of days a small gas generator running through a battery charger is the best way I've found to keep the batteries charged. That saves the outboard and lets you run the generator a longer time. I've used solar panels both at home and on a boat. My feeling is that on a boat, they don't do the job because you can't point them well enough. So why have both a generator and solar panels?

So, in summary, what Sunbeam has done will work well. If he can keep the batteries charged with the outboard, he's home free. Oops, nothing on a boat is free.

One suggestion is to install a cheap voltmeter that reads the battery voltage with a switch so he can monitor both banks. He can see what the state of charge of each bank is when the motor isn't running, and he can tell if both banks are charged. He may already have one, and he may already use it. Then he needs to do nothing more.

Boris

PS this is what happens when you have too much time on your hands. Just waiting for some caulking to dry.
 
thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
You do want to get a charger, or at least subject the batteries to a good charger on occasion, since you will charge to about 80 to 85% with the alternator on the engine. The battery really likes to be 100% Charged.

Okay, I didn't realize that the engine alternator could never charge the battery up to 100%. Understood that they don't like to be chronically undercharged.

thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
It is best if both batteries are the same size; engine vs house. The if the engine is a U !, then it is marginally sized for your outboard, and will be over charged as you charge the larger house battery.

This I don't completely understand. Because, going back to sailboats, we had a single Group 24 start battery and then a house bank of around 400 amp hours (four batteries). So they were obviously completely lopsided, but I believe this was considered to be a sound system (?).

Okay, I think maybe I did make a mistake with the starting battery. Yamaha calls for 380 cranking amps available at 0º F, and my starting U-1 has... only 190 CCA @ 0ºF. I did run this by someone with a lot of experience, and I thought this was going to be okay (I thought it had like low 300's CCA), but it does now strike me as being inadequate. I will re-check with my electrical consultant, just to make sure there isn't something about it I'm missing; but perhaps I should move up to a larger start battery. If there is a chance it will work, then I'll keep it and check it out during my shakedown cruises (where I won't be anyplace super remote),but if not I'll go straight to a larger battery. No reason to mess around with something that's not going to work properly.

As far as the start battery being overcharged, I'm starting to feel like there is something I completely misunderstood about the whole system. I do get that each bank, if made up of multiple batteries, should have batteries of the same size, type, and age. But I didn't know that the start and house bank had to be the same size. I thought the ACR allowed the start battery to completely charge and then moved on to the house battery (?)

thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
With the house, you need to bring it up to 100% charge--and the alternator will just to do that during normal cruising.

Ah okay, good, this is what I thought it would do, because I do know it's important. But in the beginning you mentioned it would only go to 80-85% (?)

thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
If you have a 16 amp alternator output...

I have a 20-amp alternator, and since the engine is carbed, I think most of that is available to me? Still not huge, but slightly better than 16 amps.

thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
... and a cruising day is 4 hours, that means that you can put out about 12 amps or less, since you have the amount of power used by the engine electrical, plus the electronics you are using. (another 4 amps per hour?)--so maybe 8 amps available. Thus you would have 32 amp hours available--and if you never discharge more than 50% (12.2 volts)--you would only have a 64 amp hour battery.

I'm getting confused here (because I think previously you asked why I didn't get a larger house battery/bank; and here I think you are saying even what I have might not get charged adequately (?)

So back to how I was thinking when I chose it: This is why I stuck with a ~100 amp hour battery and did not go larger. Because I figured okay, I use the battery to 50% discharge, so that's 50 amps to put back in. My engine has a 20 amp alternator, and I'm not sure how much the engine itself uses, but let's say I have 15 amps coming in, then just over 3 hours of motoring would give me my 50 amps back. Three hours of motoring didn't sound excessive. Was this not sound?

thataway":e45ts5p5 said:
Best to go with a 100 or 120 amp hour battery, and use solar to keep it topped off.

Okay, so I do have a ~100 amp hour house battery. No solar yet, but I figured I would probably add some because I have liked it in the past as a charging method. But I wanted to wait to see what I would use for a dinghy (on roof, but a kayak or a larger one?), and where I would tend to put things elsewhere on the boat, so that I knew where I would put a panel and thus what size/shape would fit. I also kept in mind that there is the option of a Honda EU1000, although I'm less enthusiastic about that in principle. But a lot depends on how I end up using/cruising the boat.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused here now. I thought my plan was sound, and that I would be able to run without going below 50% of my house battery amp hours, and then put them back with the engine alternator (for now), and maybe other methods (later once I have more experience with the boat). I also thought the ACR could handle the start and house bank not being the same size. But have I gone wrong somewhere?

Lastly, I do realize the U-1 may be marginal (although it's a beefy U-1, so the specs are pretty good and it seemed like it had a pretty good chance of being fine), but if so, I'll change it.

I do appreciate your input. First of all, I"m no electrical guru; and second of all, the experience I do have is on a completely different type of boat with a different usage pattern.

Sunbeam
 
Boris,

Thanks for your input. I understand what you're saying about solar panels vs. generator. As much as I'm "not into" generators, it's a fact they do run and charge anytime you have gas (whether it be cloudy, windstill, whatever), and after all I've kind of thrown in the towel already with that big outboard on the transom :wink But... I think I'll have to see how it goes first and at least try it without. One good thing is that I'm used to being stingy with the amp hours used, so between that and the "new world" of LED lighting I may be okay. Only one way to find out... use the boat :D

journey on":1qwptbsx said:
One suggestion is to install a cheap voltmeter that reads the battery voltage with a switch.

Well, I don't have that, but I do have a battery monitor (Victron BMV-600S). I purposely got the one that only reads one bank though (the 602S will read two banks), as I figured I would only need to keep close track of the house bank. The start bank should be charged first, so unless something goes really awry it should be in good shape any time my house bank reads in good shape (I believe, but heck, now I'm second-guessing myself). Too, if the house bank is in good shape, I could use the combine function if I needed to to start the engine. Also, I have a Honda 8 that has a pull start (if needed) and an alternator, so that's another possibility in a pinch.

journey on":1qwptbsx said:
PS this is what happens when you have too much time on your hands. Just waiting for some caulking to dry.

I know how that goes. Well plus it's just fun to talk boats, isn't it? :thup

Sunbeam
 
Well, that Victron BMV-600S is a voltmeter (plus more,) so one could put a switch in there between batteries. If you only checked the other battery for a few seconds, it wouldn't screw up the integration of the amps. Note: this is just an idle comment, not a recommendation for additional work.

I have a 40 amp battery charger in Journey on, stolen from the sailboat we sold. It has a series of lights on the front panel indicating how many amps are going into the batteries. 40-20-10-5-standby, you get one light at a time. Remember, there's some good sized batteries in there. I've never seen the 40 amp light on in Journey On (euphonious, huh?,) the 20 amp comes on at the start of charge, quickly drops to 10 (say 10 min,) stays there for a half hour and then goes to 5 amps. Now the 5 amp light stays on for a long time, but that's the taper charge on a lead acid battery. So 15-20 amps out of that Honda is about all that you can use to charge the batteries. It might take you longer to reach the 10 amp mark, but do you care?

Absolutely right, try it. If the motor doesn't start because of a dead battery, blame Dr. Bob.

Boris

PS Got the dishwasher loaded and going. Judy's out of town this week, not much to do.
 
Sunbeam":3b6odw0b said:
thataway"[b:3b6odw0b said:
]You do want to get a charger, or at least subject the batteries to a good charger on occasion, since you will charge to about 80 to 85% with the alternator on the engine. The battery really likes to be 100% Charged.[/b]

Okay, I didn't realize that the engine alternator could never charge the battery up to 100%. Understood that they don't like to be chronically undercharged.

thataway":3b6odw0b said:
It is best if both batteries are the same size; engine vs house. The if the engine is a U !, then it is marginally sized for your outboard, and will be over charged as you charge the larger house battery.

This I don't completely understand. Because, going back to sailboats, we had a single Group 24 start battery and then a house bank of around 400 amp hours (four batteries). So they were obviously completely lopsided, but I believe this was considered to be a sound system (?).

A sound system only if you manually switched the charging from the engine starting bank to the house bank--leaving the engine start out of the equation.

Okay, I think maybe I did make a mistake with the starting battery. Yamaha calls for 380 cranking amps available at 0º F, and my starting U-1 has... only 190 CCA @ 0ºF. I did run this by someone with a lot of experience, and I thought this was going to be okay (I thought it had like low 300's CCA), but it does now strike me as being inadequate. I will re-check with my electrical consultant, just to make sure there isn't something about it I'm missing; but perhaps I should move up to a larger start battery. If there is a chance it will work, then I'll keep it and check it out during my shakedown cruises (where I won't be anyplace super remote),but if not I'll go straight to a larger battery. No reason to mess around with something that's not going to work properly.

By your admitted numbers the battery is 50% undersized--you should have it oversized.

As far as the start battery being overcharged, I'm starting to feel like there is something I completely misunderstood about the whole system. I do get that each bank, if made up of multiple batteries, should have batteries of the same size, type, and age. But I didn't know that the start and house bank had to be the same size. I thought the ACR allowed the start battery to completely charge and then moved on to the house battery (?)

The ARC continues to charge the engine start battery, at the voltage indicated, but then most of the current flows to the house bank. The ARC does NOT disconnect the engine start when it closes the relay to charge the house, overcharging the small engine start battery

thataway":3b6odw0b said:
With the house, you need to bring it up to 100% charge--and the alternator will just to do that during normal cruising.

I mad a typo there it should have read "The alternator will just NOT do that during normal cruising--see my earlier statement which is correct. (Comes from 9/10 pain scale from the back/related to fishing that AM)

Ah okay, good, this is what I thought it would do, because I do know it's important. But in the beginning you mentioned it would only go to 80-85% (?)

thataway":3b6odw0b said:
If you have a 16 amp alternator output...

I have a 20-amp alternator, and since the engine is carbed, I think most of that is available to me? Still not huge, but slightly better than 16 amps.

thataway":3b6odw0b said:
... and a cruising day is 4 hours, that means that you can put out about 12 amps or less, since you have the amount of power used by the engine electrical, plus the electronics you are using. (another 4 amps per hour?)--so maybe 8 amps available. Thus you would have 32 amp hours available--and if you never discharge more than 50% (12.2 volts)--you would only have a 64 amp hour battery.

I'm getting confused here (because I think previously you asked why I didn't get a larger house battery/bank; and here I think you are saying even what I have might not get charged adequately (?)

You are working on the "top" half of the battery discharge cycle. That is what is important. It is best to precisely relate the amount of charge to the battery and amount of discharge. We used to do that with the old manual battery chargers, if you sat there and watched battery voltage and current flow. The "Smart" Charger does this for you. Outboards do not have "smart chargers--although better than in the past.

So back to how I was thinking when I chose it: This is why I stuck with a ~100 amp hour battery and did not go larger. Because I figured okay, I use the battery to 50% discharge, so that's 50 amps to put back in. My engine has a 20 amp alternator, and I'm not sure how much the engine itself uses, but let's say I have 15 amps coming in, then just over 3 hours of motoring would give me my 50 amps back. Three hours of motoring didn't sound excessive. Was this not sound?

Yes and no--first it does not really make a difference if you have a 100 or a 120 amp hour battery. Second, you have to put in more than you take out--there is a loss in the charging cycle (heat).

thataway":3b6odw0b said:
Best to go with a 100 or 120 amp hour battery, and use solar to keep it topped off.

Okay, so I do have a ~100 amp hour house battery. No solar yet, but I figured I would probably add some because I have liked it in the past as a charging method. But I wanted to wait to see what I would use for a dinghy (on roof, but a kayak or a larger one?), and where I would tend to put things elsewhere on the boat, so that I knew where I would put a panel and thus what size/shape would fit. I also kept in mind that there is the option of a Honda EU1000, although I'm less enthusiastic about that in principle. But a lot depends on how I end up using/cruising the boat.

There are many ways of securing a solar panel to a C Dory 22. Also there can be two 80 watt or one 160 watt (size just for comparison). You can put the panels on the r oof rails, on the flat, on the radar arch, on the bow rails.
or even on rails over the stern splash well, and can be moved to follow the sun.

The Honda gives a lot more options--for us it allows a 600 to 800 watt heater, a hot plate, a 5,000 BTU air conditioner, to run a 30 amp and 20 amp charger, plus the freezer et.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused here now. I thought my plan was sound, and that I would be able to run without going below 50% of my house battery amp hours, and then put them back with the engine alternator (for now), and maybe other methods (later once I have more experience with the boat). I also thought the ACR could handle the start and house bank not being the same size. But have I gone wrong somewhere?

As I noted before you will be running on the 40 to 80% battery capacity, rather than the 50 to 100% battery capacity. It will work, but not as well as if you top off the battery every few days,

In our cruising, we hit a marina every few days to get a good shower, obtain ice, dump the portipotty, get food, get water and run the battery charger to be sure that the battery is well topped off. When the freezer is aboard, we run the generator a couple to 3 hours a day, as you observed, last Sept. This is a good compromise.

Lastly, I do realize the U-1 may be marginal (although it's a beefy U-1, so the specs are pretty good and it seemed like it had a pretty good chance of being fine), but if so, I'll change it.

I use a u1 as a starting battery on my RIB (15 and 25 hp)--also used on lawn tractors--again smaller motors. Nice batteries but perhaps as a back up for electronics. The CCA is less than half you need for the motor and the RC is about 35

I do appreciate your input. First of all, I"m no electrical guru; and second of all, the experience I do have is on a completely different type of boat with a different usage pattern.

Actually sailboats have a similar usage pattern as do many C Dorys.
There are some very good articles about living off the grid, which might be a good place to learn about batteries and systems


Sunbeam
 
Thanks for all your input, Bob.

I won't re-quote everything as it is getting long, but just mention a few points.

First, I did re-check with the person who designed my system, mentioning the concerns. He was a bit busy to respond right away point-by-point, but will get back to me later. I asked about the U-1, since I had thought it was less undersized that it was (but I did know it was not completely "oversized") and he said it will either start the engine or it won't. In other words, it won't "secretly" damage the engine in any way. So I can try it. I have the house bank (which I can monitor), and the Honda (manual start + alternator) as backups, and I won't be starting out by going into "the wilderness." My guess is that I'll probably end up getting a larger battery, because I don't like marginal things.

I'm still not completely clear on the house bank size. Specifically why I'll be "working from 40-80% instead of 50% to 100%." I would have thought that if I kept an eye on the monitor, and adjusted my usage commensurately, that I could stay above 50%. I also thought I understood that if I chose not to add generators, etc. that I would be better off with this size battery vs. a larger one (believe me, I wanted to put 4 T-105's onboard :lol:

I'm used to being pretty parsimonious on long-distance cruising boats where we didn't have generators or even very large alternators (or the wonderful LED's). We didn't have super-sophisticated systems aboard, but we did successfully manage them. However...it's a learning curve for me with a small, outboard-powered cruiser, as I have never cruised in this type of boat before (hey, I left my 33# Bruce at home, give me credit! ;)). Obviously I'll need to get to fuel docks fairly often, so I'm not preparing for 2 months offshore or anything like that (ironically I'd probably do a better job of that). I was thinking that since many 22's seem really basic, that I, too, could get along fine with what I have until I had some experience in the boat, and then add chargers/generators/solar panels/etc. once I knew if I wanted them and where to place them (i.e. solar panel placement might change depending on whether I use a dinghy or a kayak, etc.). Maybe I missed something (?)

Now I'm thinking that, okay, the worst thing that can happen is that I end up having to replace the house battery sooner than I "should" have had to do. I didn't realize I was setting myself up for problems, but I can accept that there is a learning curve, and if that's the price to pay, I can live with it. I've been concentrating on making the boat "waterproof," so that combined with my relative lack of electrical knowledge led me to consulting with someone more experienced than me (in electrical matters and in small outboard cruisers) on the system.

On the ACR and the two different sized batteries (because even if I get a larger start battery, it's not going to be a Group 31), I guess I didn't understand that fully and will have to educate myself further. I thought it was "normal" in a "new-fashioned" system (i.e. using an ACR) to have two different sized batteries (same age and type though).

My experience is completely not with small, outboard-powered cruisers, and I guess it shows! That's why I consulted with someone else, and I will re-check with that person. Thanks for bringing up your concerns - I appreciate your experience and knowledge.

Sunbeam
 
I have a question for any of you with twin engines on a 22, who happen to be reading along. I think I understand that many (most? all?) of you have a pair of U-1 batteries for starting them, and then I assume you would have a larger house bank (one or more batteries). So you would also be designing your system to account for different sized batteries. How are yours set up then? Do you have an Off-On-Combine switch and ACR like I do? Or do you have the 1-2-Both type setup and then you manually switch over to charge the house bank (how do you determine when?). Or do you have a bunch of U-1 batteries for your house bank (that doesn't sound right, but...?). If you have a system like mine, how has it worked out in practice?

I'm feeling a bit low about my whole electrical set-up at this point. I thought I had a slick, all-new-components system that was completely functional for the typical C-Dory use, and actually an improvement over the old "two Group 24 batteires and a 1-2-both switch" type of system (granted I might want to add a charger or shorepower later). It's the one part of what I've done to my 22 so far (well, that and servicing the outboards) for which I had to try to figure out what to do without my own knowledge base. (I'm a lot more "in my element" when it comes to installing hardware and making fiberglass/epoxy/core repairs.)

Sunbeam
(only half beaming at the moment)
 
Wow! I didn't realize the conversation that would be sparked, and now I am as confused as well. Perhaps someone can best point me in a setup so I can upgrade my system. I currently have a single deep cycle lead acid group 24 battery. I would like to install more capacity in the form of a house and starting battery bank. I was of the opinion that "Add-a-battery" switch would be a good choice given that one does not have to "remember" to switch over to the house battery to charge while under way. It sounds like this is not nescessarily true (overcharge potential). I should also note that I would prefer to have both batteries in the Starboard Larazzette. I currently have the following draws on the system:
- 3 cabin lights. 3 navigation lights (likely will convert to LED)
- toyo cabin heater (96 W ignition for 3 min, then 27 W on burning)
- wipers, horn, rule bilge pump etc
- radar (3.5 - 1.6 A)
- GPS/sounder (12 W)
- Honda 90 carburated (DC output 12V - 16A)

I too am interested in a solar panel and a portable charger unit to top the batteries off at home. I would like to clean up my connections at the battery as the motor, fuse panel, Sounder and Bilge Pump currently terminate at the battery. Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Grazer
 
Sunbeam,

I have pretty much the same setup as you. I have a single main engine with a group 24 start battery and a deep cycle group 27 house battery. This is the setup that the boat came with. The original batteries lasted nearly 6 years before the house battery started to fail. I never had any problem with the start battery, but I replaced both batteries this past fall. The boat came with a 1-2-All-Off switch. I got tired of fooling with the switch while on the boat and changed to the new battery switch you have with the ACR. I think it was in the second year of owning the boat that I added the new switch and ACR, so I have 3-4 years of use with no problems. I really like the setup and would certainly add it again on a new boat. It is much simpler for me to just turn the switch on when I get on the boat and off when I am done.

One other thing I added at the same time is a remote switch for the ACR. This is good for two things: first it has an LED readout to tell you when the batteries are combined. It is nice to have a visible confirmation in the cabin as to when the batteries are combined and when they are not. Second, my battery charger is a 5-5-10 3 bank charger. Since I have two batteries, I use the 10 amp on one battery, and both 5 amps on the second battery. The charger manual says is it ok to combine the 5's, but not to combine the 5's and the 10. Without the override switch for the ACR, the battery charger would cause the ACR to combine the batteries, thus combining the 5 and 10amp charger outputs. The ACR switch is mounted next to the other shore power switches, so when I turn the battery charger on, I turn the ACR off. When I am done charging, I put the ACR back on auto.

My boat is stored on a lift with electric, so the charger is on any time the boat is not being used. Another reason I like having shore power is the ability to use electric heat when it is very cold and I have a window AC unit that I have used when it is very hot. I don't use electric heat or AC very often, but it is nice to have the option when needed.

Hope this helps.

Rob
 
Grazer":2avpb9z5 said:
Wow! I didn't realize the conversation that would be sparked, and now I am as confused as well.

Yeah, I want to apologize. I certainly didn't mean to steer anyone wrong. I'm feeling pretty low about the whole thing, really. I've been reading on the Blue Sea site (knowledge always helps my mood) and I'm on hold with Blue Seas tech. department right now to ask them some questions. I'll report back.

Sunbeam
 
Okay, so I decided that I needed to learn a bit more, and specifically to find out if my system was okay, since I already have it set up this way.

Before I start, I have to admit I have feelings of discomfort right at the moment. I know Dr. Bob has a vast amount of experience, more than I will ever have (and besides, electricals aren't my "thing" anyway), and I worry that it will seem like I'm contradicting him or being "uppity." That's not the case, but I fear it may seem that way (sometimes hard to convey things well in print). If I had consulted with him initially, I might have chosen a different system, but as it is I have what I have, and I wanted to know more about it, and whether it needed to be changed.

Second, I realize that Blue Sea is a company, and that they probably aren't going to tell me their stuff is bad; but on the other hand, most companies don't want you having a bad experience with their products, so from that angle I expected they would be straight with me. (Especially since I would just use new/different Blue Sea products if I changed things :D)

I did some reading on the Blue Sea website, and although I saw some systems that were something like mine, there was nothing exactly like it (most were more complex/larger). I also wanted to ask them some specific questions. So I called and spoke with Aaron in their technical department. I let him know at the outset that I really liked Blue Sea products, and that it wasn't that I was unhappy with them, but rather that I wanted to ask him some questions about my specific use of them. I ran down my basic system and its components, including the outboard with the 20-amp alternator and the Victron monitor (which aren't Blue Sea of course). I don't know what his level of experience is, but I felt comfortable with what he was telling me, and he took plenty of time to answer several questions that I had. He also approved of the battery monitor (not Blue Sea). As a bonus, I think I figured out one "mystery" I had this summer.

So the upshot is that he felt my system should work well for my uses. I mentioned the "other" system (two matched batteries and a 1-2-Both switch) and he said that is another valid way to do it, but my focus was on what I have and whether I should change it or not. Now, everything I say from here on out is from my notes, and so please don't take it as gospel as it's possible I got some details wrong or am leaving something out.

First off, he said that they run systems (on larger boats of course) that have one start battery, and then multiple house batteries, and the two banks have different sized batteries and it works out okay. What he cautioned against is different sized batteries within a bank, because the smaller/weaker one can act as a weak link and drag the rest of the bank down. As I understand it now, the ACR doesn't so much direct charging, as it does "bar the door" to discharge if/when one battery is in danger of getting too low. The ACR is an "intelligent switch" that combines the batteries when it sees one at 13 volts or over, and disconnects them when one is at 12.5 volts or lower. That way one battery/bank cannot drag down the other battery/bank. As far as overcharging the smaller battery, I guess that it's just like having the switch on both, and that the smaller battery just stops accepting charge when it gets full? Sorry, my notes are a bit unclear on this part except that apparently it's going to be okay (I guess I can't learn it all in one session :disgust)

I then asked about whether I should have a larger house bank. We talked about that for a bit, and about usage. I think the reason my initial consultant recommended the battery size I have is that I said that - at least initially - I wanted to be able to be self-sufficient with a combination of anchoring and motoring. In other words, I wanted to reasonably be able to charge my house bank back up without having a charger or a shorepower system (which I might add later though). I also didn't want to lug around extra weight in the lazarette if not necessary (say I had a 200 amp hour bank, and only used 25% of it so that I'd just be putting back my easily-attainable 50 amps, well then I'd be toting around an extra 100 amps worth of battery. I may start using the boat differently and want to change the house bank, but initially I wanted to set it up for simple usage and then see how I tend to go).

He did mention a couple of other smaller details that were useful to me. One is that the ACR can go into "lockout" mode. If it does this the light on the front will blink. This would happen, for example, if you drew your house battery WAY down, like to 10 volts. I'm going to have to read up on this as I don't totally understand the rest of my notes. Oops :oops:

The other thing is that the ACR draws a small current even when the battery switch is set to "off." He recommended that if I was going to not use the boat for a longer period of time (or just wanted to know I could turn it all off for sure), that I add a switch in the small negative wire that comes out the bottom of the ACR.

This last item I think solved a mystery that I had this summer. When installing the new electrical system, I had a "bright idea." You know how there is the trim/tilt switch on the side of the motor, and how you tend to use it when trailering, and then have to climb up into the boat, open the lazarette, turn on the switch, climb down, trim/tilt the motor, climb back up... etc.? Well, my first thought was to just put the On-Off-Combine switch where I could reach it from the ground, but that would still be problematic if I had a camperback, and I like the tidiness of having it in the lazarette, so... I thought well, why not wire the start battery to be "hot"? After all, neither me nor anyone else is likely to just run the trim switch endlessly, and then it would be so handy because I could just trim/tilt from the ground at will. So that's what we did. All was great and I was feeling just a tad proud of myself until I went to leave Washington and..... ahem, no power to the trim/tilt mechanism (until I combined the batteries). At the time I wondered if perhaps my Yamaha had some small parasitic load, although that seemed unlikely. I charged up the start battery, and decided to just go back to the "normal" way and wire it into the switch.

When I mentioned this to the fellow at Blue Sea after he told me about the ACR having a constant small draw, he said that likely that was what dragged down my small start battery. I think I will put that "kill" switch in the ACR wire, just so I can KNOW things are all "Off." I will also probably get a larger/new start battery - although not as large as the house battery. That said, I'll probably try the U-1 just to see, since I have it. Why not do an experiment since it's there (I do have a pull start on the Honda just in case!).

As usual, I might have forgotten something or misstated something. If so, my apologies. I do feel comfortable now with my system as it is, except that I think I do need to get either a stand-alone charger or a built in charger for when I'm not using the boat (which of course could be used at a dock too).

Okay, I've been writing up a post on my transom drain and will post it later - at least that's an area where I feel comfortable with what I'm doing!
 
Back
Top