Sunbeam ~ C-Dory 22 Cruiser
- Thread starter Sunbeam
- Start date
Well I bet someone is going to read it who's in the midst of a project (or contemplating one) and it'll make their day -- a good tip never hurts!
That "offset" hole detail is also the reason I got a bit nervous about using a (single) hole saw. The new center was near to where the (softer) wood bung and and (harder) fiberglass met that I was concerned about keeping the centering bit exactly where I wanted it. Probably would have been fine, but I decided not to find out since the clearances were tight (as far as overall placement), and there's really no turning back once the hole saw hits the gelcoat.
Sunbeam
That "offset" hole detail is also the reason I got a bit nervous about using a (single) hole saw. The new center was near to where the (softer) wood bung and and (harder) fiberglass met that I was concerned about keeping the centering bit exactly where I wanted it. Probably would have been fine, but I decided not to find out since the clearances were tight (as far as overall placement), and there's really no turning back once the hole saw hits the gelcoat.
Sunbeam
beermanPDX
New member
Sunbeam":7f1i4e3i said:
Another way to do what you want is to just get a scrap piece of wood and drill your hole through that with your hole saw. Then clamp or hold that scrap piece of wood over the desired drill location. The scrap wood become the hole saw guide and will keep it from moving / walking.
I've used this method quite a few times when changing out locksets on doors.
Another good idea :thup
In this case I couldn't see a real good way of clamping to the surface... but I did think about it, because the hole saw would have been such a quick, simple way to make the hole. As it turned out, the Dremel method didn't take too terribly long either, but I didn't know it was going to be as quick as it was, so I spent some time trying to avoid it. You know how some boat projects seem like they are going to be a breeze but then .... NOT. Well making the holes turned out the opposite (for once!), once I just gave in to the Dremel. Can't complain when that happens
In this case I couldn't see a real good way of clamping to the surface... but I did think about it, because the hole saw would have been such a quick, simple way to make the hole. As it turned out, the Dremel method didn't take too terribly long either, but I didn't know it was going to be as quick as it was, so I spent some time trying to avoid it. You know how some boat projects seem like they are going to be a breeze but then .... NOT. Well making the holes turned out the opposite (for once!), once I just gave in to the Dremel. Can't complain when that happens
I just took a good look at my set up. There I plenty of height to make. Loop but when I test fit it the 5/8 hose kinked badly in that small space. I took the fitting out and there is a 3/4" hole. The non-flush mount Atwood version would fit in the 3/4" hole? This my be my best option.
Emurph8":1fklwkq5 said:
Well that's not good. I don't know what type of hose you're using, but if you're already using "good stuff" and still can't make the bend without kinking than I'd probably go with the P-trap fitting. Are you starting with a 90º vent fitting or are you making the full 180º with the hose?
(Side note: I just looked up Trident A-1 hose, their type #365 and in that size they list a 3" bend radius -- in case that's better than what you have now. Here is their spec sheet on it:
http://www.tridentmarine.com/stage/documents/365A1-15FUELHOSESpecificationSheet.pdf)
Emurph8":1fklwkq5 said:
That's what Attwood shows on their website for the surface-mounted P-trap vent - and in this case, since that's the "usual" size hole for our size surface-mounted vents, I don't have any reason to doubt it.
Sunbeam :hot
I ordered the Atwood that fits in the 3/4" hole. Decision made. Since I will be reusing the metal fills I have to go back and ground them. Do you know what size wire I need to use for that? The old wire was white but I threw it out I don't remember what size it was. Is white the correct color? Does it matter?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Emurph8":2lm4btsg said:
That's a good feeling, isn't it?
Emurph8":2lm4btsg said:
I don't know. I don't remember my (metal) fills being grounded when I removed them. I'm not sure if that's incorrect or if it's because I have plastic tanks (and the old ones were plastic too). Did you have metal tanks previously? Is that why they were grounded?
I guess I will have to check into this before I install my new tanks and reinstall my metal fills. I might have known at some point but if so I have forgotten. I can try to look it up on ABYC.
******
Okay, so on the Moeller tank installation sheet, it says this:
"PROPER WIRING INSTALLATION: (See Figure 4) - Connect sender wire from fuel gauge to the threaded screw terminal on the fuel sender. Use
attached nut and washer to secure wire in place. - Connect a grounding wire to the 1/4" fasson terminal on fuel sender."
So perhaps it's if you have fuel gauge senders (which are electrical) that you have to ground the fills? Did your previous tanks have senders? I imagine some other Brats probably know this for sure, but I don't at the moment.
Sunbeam
My old tanks were plastic but they did have fuel senders. That's what started this whole project for me, the duel gauge wasn't working. If in don't need to ground the fill they would be great but I'm pretty sure it needs to be grounded due to static electricity? Ill try and find more info also.
I just read through ABYC's section H-24, which pertains to gasoline fuel systems. I think I found the answer in section 24.15, Fuel-System Grounding (although anyone who knows better please correct me):
"24.15 FUEL SYSTEM GROUNDING
Each metal or metallic plated component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank, which is in contact with the fuel, must be grounded so that its resistance to the boat's ground is less than one olnn. Wire ends shall not be clamped between the fill pipes and hose."
The bit that caught my eye is, "which is in contact with the fuel" (emboldening mine). I think your senders would have been in contact with the fuel, so they would have to be grounded, but our fillers are not in contact with the fuel (presuming they mean constantly, which I don't know for sure and which may change things if I'm misinterpreting it). So perhaps your senders were grounded to the fills and the purpose was to ground the former not the latter?
Sunbeam
"24.15 FUEL SYSTEM GROUNDING
Each metal or metallic plated component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank, which is in contact with the fuel, must be grounded so that its resistance to the boat's ground is less than one olnn. Wire ends shall not be clamped between the fill pipes and hose."
The bit that caught my eye is, "which is in contact with the fuel" (emboldening mine). I think your senders would have been in contact with the fuel, so they would have to be grounded, but our fillers are not in contact with the fuel (presuming they mean constantly, which I don't know for sure and which may change things if I'm misinterpreting it). So perhaps your senders were grounded to the fills and the purpose was to ground the former not the latter?
Sunbeam
Bill K":34iluewf said:
That seems like it might be a better interpretation. I was somewhat trying to make the facts "fit" what I was reading (since mine were apparently never grounded), and "in contact with the fuel" seemed to make it plausible to wonder whether that meant IN the fuel or just ever in slight contact.
I found this on Boat U.S.'s site, which is interesting. It explains how now the rule has changed for fills with a metal cap and chain but a plastic body (does not pertain to mine which are all metal, but there is some other interesting info).
It look like my fills should be grounded, although it says "to the boat's bonding system," and of course my boat is not bonded. Guess I'll do some further research.
Edit: I have a call in to ABYC and I'll report back.
GROUNDING ESSENTIALS and a SPECIAL WARNING:
A Caution About Grounding Your Deck Fill: Please check with your installation instructions regarding grounding requirements or refer to a marina or boat yard that is versed in American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) construction standards.
Because fuel nozzles are metal and the flow of fuel through it generates static, a small but dangerous spark (called an Electrostatic Discharge or ESD) can occur when the nozzle is inserted into a metal filler neck. To prevent sparking, a ground wire must be attached from the metal deck fill unit to the boat’s bonding system. Also, it is important that the nozzle remain in contact with the metal deck fill at all times while refueling. Never wrap a nozzle in an absorbent pad or rag so that it prevents a good contact between the nozzle and metal body of the deck fill. When refueling portable fuel tanks, always place directly on the ground, never on a plastic truck bed-liner or a dock made of synthetic plastic wood. Good contact between a portable tank and a solid grounded object is essential.
Special Warning for Plastic Body and Metal Fuel Caps: Deck fill units that have a plastic body with metal components such as a metallic lid or metal retaining chain, are NOT to be grounded. Read the important Safely Message & Technical Bulletin issued by the United States Coast Guard (USCG) in February 2005:
Coast Guard Warning: Fuel Fill Technical Bulletin:
Recent events have caused the boating industry to examine the policy regarding the bonding of plastic body fuel fills with metallic caps and retaining chains. Existing USCG & ABYC policy states that the bonding of these components is voluntary. A study by IMANNA Laboratories has shown that connecting the metallic retaining chain and cap of a plastic body fuel fill assembly to a boats bonding system may result in electrostatic discharge from a land-based fuel pump nozzle to the metallic components of the assembly when the boat is not in the water. This condition does not exist when the boat is in the water due to the equalizations of the ground potentials between the fuel pump nozzle and the boats bonding system.
It is recommended by ABYC and the USCG that new and existing installations of this type of fuel fill assembly DO NOT INCLUDE any attachment to the boats bonding system. Existing connections should be removed from the point of connection to the boats bonding system to the fuel fill assembly. Removal of the metallic components of the assembly is not necessary; however, the U.S. Coast Guard and ABYC still require that METALLIC body fuel fills be bonded.
For further information contact:
John Adey, ABYC (410) 956-1050 ext. 29 jadey@abycinc.org
Richard Blackman (202) 267-6810 rblackman@comdt.uscg.mil
Also from USCGboating.org:
BOATBUILDER'S HANDBOOK
Manufacturer Requirements
FEDERAL LAW
183.572 - Grounding
Each metallic component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank which is in contact with fuel must be statically grounded so that the resistance between the ground and each metallic component of the fuel fill system and fuel tank is less than 100 ohms.
Fuel flowing from the dispensing nozzle into a fuel tank is a potential source of a static electric charge which could cause a spark between the dispensing nozzle and metal component of the fuel tank fill system. To prevent such a spark from occurring, metallic components of the fuel tank fill system and metallic fuel tanks must be grounded.
Grounding or bonding may be accomplished by connecting the metallic components electrically by running a wire from one component to the next, and so forth to the boat’s ground. Grounding can usually be accomplished by a connection to the common bonding conductor or the engine negative terminal.
If the fuel tank deck fill fitting is nonmetallic, and nonconductive hose is used as a fill pipe, there is no need for grounding the fill fitting. Chrome-plated plastic fill fittings are treated the same as metallic fittings.
NOTES:
If a metal hose attachment fitting is used, it must be grounded.
Fill cap retaining chains need not be grounded.
FIGURE 36 - Fuel Fill System Grounding
CAUTION
BONDING WIRES PUT UNDER THE END OF A HOSE COULD CAUSE A FUEL LEAK. The bonding wire should be a "bolted connection" on the tank’s ground tab. At the deck plate the bonding wire may be securely connected to a ground fitting provided on the deck plate, or securely connected to a deck fill plate bolt.
TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
Are metallic components of the fuel tank fill system and the metallic fuel tank grounded?
Is the resistance between each of these metallic components, including the metallic fuel tank and ground less than 100 ohms?
Sure looks like my metal fills should have been grounded from the get-go. I'll have to figure out exactly what I should ground them to. Other 22 folks whose fills are grounded: What are they attached to? (Electrical is not my strong point.)
Thanks,
Sunbeam
I started a new thread specifically to address the question of grounding metal fuel fills, so maybe we can have further discussion over there. Here is a link to it:
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?p=232877#232877
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?p=232877#232877
Back to (other) projects on my boat. Having a very frustrating morning, so I'm probably venting as much as anything :amgry
I've been epoxying for around 15 years now, and I've never had a failure. I chalk that up to being careful and tidy as I mix, apply, etc. Well, now I've experienced my first problem, and I'm in the midst of laboriously scraping it all off :cry Taking a break now to rest my hands and wrists. I'll relate the tale in case it helps someone else.
So, there is one of those "known" facts that gelcoat (polyester) doesn't stick to epoxy. And there are many times one makes a repair with epoxy (it has superior secondary bonding characteristics among other things), but then wants to gelcoat over it. I had read an article by the Gougeons (WEST System) that said they had done quite a bit of testing (and they typically do good test procedures) and found that it could bond just fine. They said the epoxy should be well-cured.
So okay, I have quite a few areas that I have epoxied that are waiting for gelcoat. "Well-cured' seemed a bit vague (days? weeks? months?) so I called WEST's technical department. They said probably more like days/weeks, not months, and then said that another factor was that it would help to have the resin mixed slightly resin-rich, or at least certainly not hardener rich. Apparently it is free particles of hardener (that are extra and have not linked with resin) that can cause bonding issues with gelcoat. So they said I could hedge my bets by mixing the batch slightly resin rich.
Okay, this felt a bit scary, but it made sense, so I mixed up a batch that was purposely slightly resin rich. I happened to be low on fast or medium hardener, so I used slow (it's 60-ish here). I also mixed in some of WEST's 501 white pigment, at just about the maximum recommended, since I was going over some maroon microballoon faired areas, and was going to overcoat with light-colored gelcoat. Then I painted it on as a last, resin-rich, sort of "tie coat" on my new bilge sump (which I planned to write about with photos when it was done).
Since the batch was not kicking any time soon (slow hardener), I used it to coat a number of other areas that I will be gelcoating (mostly disused fastener holes), and then, since I still had some left, did a little more "bonus' work in the anchor locker. You can probably guess where this is going...
Next day.... hadn't cured. Well okay, it's slow hardener and it was cool overnight. Next day.... started to get a bit worried. Next day.... called tech support again, and they recommended using a space heater to heat the area up well for 12 hours or so. I did that yesterday and last night. Now, it's not that it wasn't curing at all - it did get past the tacky/sticky stage - but it just didn't ever get totally rock hard. I could still make a mark with a fingernail edge. And my leftover inch in the cup was still "smooshable." This morning...... still the same. Okay, so now it has been five days, and I'm pretty sure my problem is not going to go away. But I still wanted to understand it better. I called WEST's tech line again (by the way, I did also explain to them that since I'm on the road, it's hard to carry and deal with the pumps, so I'm using 2:1 System Three resin, but did use WEST 501 white tint, and I have used lots of WEST resin over the years; they said System Three is a fine product too and were very gracious about it).
We went along talking through the job, and when I got to the part about the tinting a light bulb came on. They explained to me that the tinting is basically a resin too, just tinted white. So apparently between the tinting and also mixing resin rich, instead of about 10% resin rich my batch was 20% or so resin rich, and my resin simply ran out of hardener to cross link to and stopped hardening :cry I did say that I wished that were more clear on the tinting instructions, as I would then have allowed for it (they list a ratio of tint to resin, which I followed, but it was not clear that it IS resin, so you are already making a resin-rich batch -- in case you are changing the ratio in some other way as I was).
So today I'm scraping and sanding all that 501-tinted epoxy back off. It got just hard enough to be a real BEAR to remove. Sigh. Taking a hand break now. Eventually I'll be back to where I was before I added it, and then it will be fine, but for now it's discouraging.
Sunbeam
PS: I did also find out about a potentially useful resin product: I also called System Three's tech line, and they mentioned that they have an epoxy resin specifically for gelcoating over. It's their SB-112, and interestingly it says not only that it can be gelcoated over, but that it MUST be gelcoated over within 48 hours (if one is going to). That suggests some kind of "tie" action. I've always been "old-fashioned' in that I just buy the basic epoxy resin and hardener, and mix my own compounds with basic fillers and etc. -- but I may have to give this a try since I now have a boat with gleaming gelcoat.
I've been epoxying for around 15 years now, and I've never had a failure. I chalk that up to being careful and tidy as I mix, apply, etc. Well, now I've experienced my first problem, and I'm in the midst of laboriously scraping it all off :cry Taking a break now to rest my hands and wrists. I'll relate the tale in case it helps someone else.
So, there is one of those "known" facts that gelcoat (polyester) doesn't stick to epoxy. And there are many times one makes a repair with epoxy (it has superior secondary bonding characteristics among other things), but then wants to gelcoat over it. I had read an article by the Gougeons (WEST System) that said they had done quite a bit of testing (and they typically do good test procedures) and found that it could bond just fine. They said the epoxy should be well-cured.
So okay, I have quite a few areas that I have epoxied that are waiting for gelcoat. "Well-cured' seemed a bit vague (days? weeks? months?) so I called WEST's technical department. They said probably more like days/weeks, not months, and then said that another factor was that it would help to have the resin mixed slightly resin-rich, or at least certainly not hardener rich. Apparently it is free particles of hardener (that are extra and have not linked with resin) that can cause bonding issues with gelcoat. So they said I could hedge my bets by mixing the batch slightly resin rich.
Okay, this felt a bit scary, but it made sense, so I mixed up a batch that was purposely slightly resin rich. I happened to be low on fast or medium hardener, so I used slow (it's 60-ish here). I also mixed in some of WEST's 501 white pigment, at just about the maximum recommended, since I was going over some maroon microballoon faired areas, and was going to overcoat with light-colored gelcoat. Then I painted it on as a last, resin-rich, sort of "tie coat" on my new bilge sump (which I planned to write about with photos when it was done).
Since the batch was not kicking any time soon (slow hardener), I used it to coat a number of other areas that I will be gelcoating (mostly disused fastener holes), and then, since I still had some left, did a little more "bonus' work in the anchor locker. You can probably guess where this is going...
Next day.... hadn't cured. Well okay, it's slow hardener and it was cool overnight. Next day.... started to get a bit worried. Next day.... called tech support again, and they recommended using a space heater to heat the area up well for 12 hours or so. I did that yesterday and last night. Now, it's not that it wasn't curing at all - it did get past the tacky/sticky stage - but it just didn't ever get totally rock hard. I could still make a mark with a fingernail edge. And my leftover inch in the cup was still "smooshable." This morning...... still the same. Okay, so now it has been five days, and I'm pretty sure my problem is not going to go away. But I still wanted to understand it better. I called WEST's tech line again (by the way, I did also explain to them that since I'm on the road, it's hard to carry and deal with the pumps, so I'm using 2:1 System Three resin, but did use WEST 501 white tint, and I have used lots of WEST resin over the years; they said System Three is a fine product too and were very gracious about it).
We went along talking through the job, and when I got to the part about the tinting a light bulb came on. They explained to me that the tinting is basically a resin too, just tinted white. So apparently between the tinting and also mixing resin rich, instead of about 10% resin rich my batch was 20% or so resin rich, and my resin simply ran out of hardener to cross link to and stopped hardening :cry I did say that I wished that were more clear on the tinting instructions, as I would then have allowed for it (they list a ratio of tint to resin, which I followed, but it was not clear that it IS resin, so you are already making a resin-rich batch -- in case you are changing the ratio in some other way as I was).
So today I'm scraping and sanding all that 501-tinted epoxy back off. It got just hard enough to be a real BEAR to remove. Sigh. Taking a hand break now. Eventually I'll be back to where I was before I added it, and then it will be fine, but for now it's discouraging.
Sunbeam
PS: I did also find out about a potentially useful resin product: I also called System Three's tech line, and they mentioned that they have an epoxy resin specifically for gelcoating over. It's their SB-112, and interestingly it says not only that it can be gelcoated over, but that it MUST be gelcoated over within 48 hours (if one is going to). That suggests some kind of "tie" action. I've always been "old-fashioned' in that I just buy the basic epoxy resin and hardener, and mix my own compounds with basic fillers and etc. -- but I may have to give this a try since I now have a boat with gleaming gelcoat.
I think I have enough energy left to say...
It's gone. Off my boat. Whew! The coating on the bilge sump; all the little dabs I put on filled holes; and the nicely shaped fillet, cloth tape, and coating in the anchor locker (not the drain hole section, which was done before). Removed, sanded, cleaned up, and tools put away. Glad that's over with (well, except for re-doing what I set out to do in the first place, but that will almost seem fun compared to this!).
Luckily a friend was around, and when I was at my lowest, commiserated by saying, "I know how you feel. There have been times I just wanted to walk along the midline of the boat with a chainsaw, and simply cut it up." Ha, that made me laugh (how did he know?!) (He also gave me a hand getting some of the half-cured resin out, and touched up my chisels mid-job so I didn't have to.) Nice to have a friend around.
So okay, a bit boring and no photos, but I had to tell someone!
Sunbeam
It's gone. Off my boat. Whew! The coating on the bilge sump; all the little dabs I put on filled holes; and the nicely shaped fillet, cloth tape, and coating in the anchor locker (not the drain hole section, which was done before). Removed, sanded, cleaned up, and tools put away. Glad that's over with (well, except for re-doing what I set out to do in the first place, but that will almost seem fun compared to this!).
Luckily a friend was around, and when I was at my lowest, commiserated by saying, "I know how you feel. There have been times I just wanted to walk along the midline of the boat with a chainsaw, and simply cut it up." Ha, that made me laugh (how did he know?!) (He also gave me a hand getting some of the half-cured resin out, and touched up my chisels mid-job so I didn't have to.) Nice to have a friend around.
So okay, a bit boring and no photos, but I had to tell someone!
Sunbeam
I have a question about the looping/p-traps used on fuel vents.
Having the loop above the vent seems fine since water entering the vent would tend to drain out.
But a P-trap type device, or a loop hanging below the vent level would cause water to be trapped in the line.
I was under the impression that one wouldn't want to use a p-trap for this purpose since you'd want free flow from the tank for venting without having to push through a trap full of water, but the gas pressure is probably sufficient.
On the other hand, it seems to me that a tank that is dropping in temperature will have lower than atmospheric pressure, causing some of the trapped water to be drawn into the tank.
Having the loop above the vent seems fine since water entering the vent would tend to drain out.
But a P-trap type device, or a loop hanging below the vent level would cause water to be trapped in the line.
I was under the impression that one wouldn't want to use a p-trap for this purpose since you'd want free flow from the tank for venting without having to push through a trap full of water, but the gas pressure is probably sufficient.
On the other hand, it seems to me that a tank that is dropping in temperature will have lower than atmospheric pressure, causing some of the trapped water to be drawn into the tank.