Singles versus Twins
- Thread starter Stuberg
- Start date
Well SEA Wolf I apology to to all the C- Brats . I went prawning with Sharon today as I told you I would be checking this single engine # again, with one engine out. Here it goes , last time out, what I was doing wrong is that I was using the cockpit control to install my pots , from the rear looking in through the window at my gauges, the are 3'' round and very easy to see from the back so my speedo was reading 2 knts more than what my GPS was telling me today darn!.... So today with 1/4 tank on each side, myself , Sharon and my lab, no wind dead calm , 3100 rpm 7 to 8 knts if power was increased, lots of noise but did not seem to go any faster. I guess, as a rooky with this C-Dory I should have been listening instead of talking!.... But did have a great day. Beat Sharon at crib, great lunch and 235 big prawns . Gary SEARAM
Gary: I will admit you had me concerned, for a moment I thought you might have hung something on the back that could compete with Mercury!
Back to topic:
I have the 90 single and a 4 hp kicker. As someone said earlier, it's an individual choice in how you use the boat. The kicker is easy to stow up front and can act as ballast. I don't have the river current issues here, so the lower hp putt-putts me in just fine if I need it (better than strapping on fins and pushing!) and I can use it for a dingy as well.
Back to topic:
I have the 90 single and a 4 hp kicker. As someone said earlier, it's an individual choice in how you use the boat. The kicker is easy to stow up front and can act as ballast. I don't have the river current issues here, so the lower hp putt-putts me in just fine if I need it (better than strapping on fins and pushing!) and I can use it for a dingy as well.
Another accessory twin engine boats:
I would call it less than necessary for our size boats but could be used in place of a bow thruster for some applications I suppose. I think it would be neat to tune the toe in/out of the motors while at speed just to see the affect.
http://www.teleflexmarine.com/products/ ... ol-system/
I would call it less than necessary for our size boats but could be used in place of a bow thruster for some applications I suppose. I think it would be neat to tune the toe in/out of the motors while at speed just to see the affect.
http://www.teleflexmarine.com/products/ ... ol-system/
$18,000 for the entire system! You can buy a thruster for less than $2,000==instillation depending on size and modifications another $3,000 give or take.....Or do it yourself--not real easy--and probably left to professionals. I have had a thruster installed on a 32 foot boat (single screw diesel, high wind profile)-and the installation was $3,000 for a about a 6 hp thruster--the guy said he would double his price next time....but it was a complex installation, with two stations etc.
Ok, time for a wise-arse comment: :bat
(PLease laugh, not get mad and go ballistic!)
$18,000!!! or $3000!!! :cry
If you don't know how to steer and dock your boat yourself, put your wife in the dinghy and have her push you into the dock, tug style! :wink
It's cheaper and gives her something to do, too!
(With apologies.) (Sorta.) :lol:
I could see this with a 50+ footer at Roche Harbor, but for a C-Dory???
Joe. :teeth :thup
(PLease laugh, not get mad and go ballistic!)
$18,000!!! or $3000!!! :cry
If you don't know how to steer and dock your boat yourself, put your wife in the dinghy and have her push you into the dock, tug style! :wink
It's cheaper and gives her something to do, too!
(With apologies.) (Sorta.) :lol:
I could see this with a 50+ footer at Roche Harbor, but for a C-Dory???
Joe. :teeth :thup
Joe, I agree that $3000k and $18k are too much to spend and that with a little practice, anyone should be able to dock a C-Dory. HOWEVER, I also admit to some very scary times early in my experiences of docking my 22 in a slip adjacent to a much more expensive boat on a windy day. Also, it took a little while to get used to how the TomCat handles and on a windy day it too can be tough in tight quarters. My guess is that over the long term, systems like the Teleflex marine one will come down dramatically in price and will compete with other hydraulic steering systems. I'm sure the electronics themselves are not very expensive and the hydraulics can't be more than twice the cost of a single cylinder and coupled steering arm. I imaging that digitally controlled throttles will soon be standard on boats too. I assume that much of the cost now comes from the electronics installed being overly complicated and from the company pricing things high to recoup their R&D investment.
So, my guess is that 4-5 years from now, the cost of these systems when installed on a new boat will be marginally more than installing a single cylinder hydraulic steering setup. When that becomes the case, it will likely make sense that people invest a little extra to get the extra control. Said another way, how much is it worth to be able to easily move your boat sideways? $100, $1000, $3000, $10,000? Different people will have different answers to this but if the cost is low enough, nearly everyone will adopt.
So, my guess is that 4-5 years from now, the cost of these systems when installed on a new boat will be marginally more than installing a single cylinder hydraulic steering setup. When that becomes the case, it will likely make sense that people invest a little extra to get the extra control. Said another way, how much is it worth to be able to easily move your boat sideways? $100, $1000, $3000, $10,000? Different people will have different answers to this but if the cost is low enough, nearly everyone will adopt.
Roger.
I agree, if you can't do it manually, then one should not rely on a computer, but as a point of interest you might find that you already have an electronic throttle. On many newer engines, all that the long cable does is adjust the input to the FMC which decides how much fuel to feed to the injectors :shock:
So, it's not really a leap of faith to put that controller up at the helm and get rid of the cables.
However, while electrons are not inherently faulty, the mechanical wires and connections through which they travel are not the best of friends with salt water and vibration.
Could have a lot of fun jury rigging a failed system where the engines operate independently.
Every time I watch someone with a big cruiser, docking with his remote control I wonder when he last replaced the batteries
M
I agree, if you can't do it manually, then one should not rely on a computer, but as a point of interest you might find that you already have an electronic throttle. On many newer engines, all that the long cable does is adjust the input to the FMC which decides how much fuel to feed to the injectors :shock:
So, it's not really a leap of faith to put that controller up at the helm and get rid of the cables.
However, while electrons are not inherently faulty, the mechanical wires and connections through which they travel are not the best of friends with salt water and vibration.
Could have a lot of fun jury rigging a failed system where the engines operate independently.
Every time I watch someone with a big cruiser, docking with his remote control I wonder when he last replaced the batteries
M
When we purchased our CD 22 nine years ago we had zero experience docking a boat. Following the purchase we launched ourselves into a extremely fast learning curve by heading to Alaska & the Yukon River after only practicing for a few short weekends prior to leaving for that adventure. Nine years later there are times when the docking process goes so well I'm amazed, but then just when my confidence is soaring I can still make a mess of it, letting out all that confidence with a thump. For a thousand dollars I'd be rushing to the front of the line for a non intrusive ability to move the Hunkydory sideways in a easily controllable manner when the wind & current are severely testing my now fairly experienced ability, especially considering the many different docking conditions & situations we encounter in our style of cruising.
Jay
Jay
For many reasons a bow thruster would not be practical in a C Dory--perhaps a $700 trolling motor, on the bow--would do far better if needed.
But there is always the dinghy tug mentioned above.....
Consider that in 5 years that C Dory 22 may well be $200,000!--and it will seem cheap to have a $30,000 steering system.
However, whenever I hear about these automated systems I think of the charter boat which took out the fuel for at least a year when the electronic system failed. (I think it was at Nanaimo or Campbell river?--a few years ago.
But there is always the dinghy tug mentioned above.....
Consider that in 5 years that C Dory 22 may well be $200,000!--and it will seem cheap to have a $30,000 steering system.
However, whenever I hear about these automated systems I think of the charter boat which took out the fuel for at least a year when the electronic system failed. (I think it was at Nanaimo or Campbell river?--a few years ago.
Grumpy":3emh9x68 said:
Merv, that wasn't my intended meaning. What I meant was that anyone with practice should be able to dock a C-Dory without special systems. However, I'm very willing to rely on computers. Properly programmed (and that's a HUGE if) redundant systems are every bit as reliable as mechanical systems and many times are more reliable. The problem is that most consumer computer stuff is poorly programmed (read Microsoft OS) and non-redundant. Also most people don't know how to program or trouble shoot electronics and are more comfortable with a mechanical system that they can see with their own eyes and touch with their own hands. I'm not bothered by either.
Yes, I'm aware of that and that was part of my point. The more we go down that path, the cheaper this kind of thing will get. The Teleflex system is really just a fancy computerized control for two throttles and two independent hydraulic cylinders and most of us with twins already have two electronically controlled throttles and on hydraulic cylinder for steering. I'm sure the vast majority of the expense of the current Teleflex system is not in the parts - rather it's in recouping investment in R&D. Eventually, others will copy and the price will come down.Grumpy":3emh9x68 said:
Grumpy":3emh9x68 said:However, while electrons are not inherently faulty, the mechanical wires and connections through which they travel are not the best of friends with salt water and vibration.
Could have a lot of fun jury rigging a failed system where the engines operate independently.
Every time I watch someone with a big cruiser, docking with his remote control I wonder when he last replaced the batteries
M
Jerry-rigging an electronic system is doable by someone who knows electronics and who carries the appropriate parts (wires, soldering iron, resistors, pots etc). It's perhaps not as easy as applying duct tape to a mechanical system but it's not that hard IF you have some understanding of the system and the right parts. I'd also wonder when the big boat last replaced the batteries in his controller. However, I will point out that there were a couple of times, I launched my 22 to discover after untying that the mechanical steering had seized due to no use for a few months. That's really uncomfortable after you've pushed off a dock and are adrift in a current. On a couple of occasions, brute force released it. But after that, I learned to check my steering before pushing off and to move the engines every month or so during storage. Also, I eventually replaced the cable. My point is that mechanical stuff can fail at unexpected times also.
Roger,
I'm not disagreeing with you.
Having spend my whole professional life inventing, developing and maintaining electronics controls and monitoring systems for aviation gas turbine engines, I am very much aware of the difference in testing, qualification and quality control between that standard of system and the stuff we get for boats
Right now if my steering failed I could use a dinghy oar and duct tape (gorilla tape better) as my engines are linked by a nice solid steel rod. I'm not so sure how that would pan out if they were both free to roam.
As for getting out my soldering iron and performing micro-surgery on the electronics on a moving boat ? I will give you a call the next time my GPS has a brain-fart
Seriously, you can't even get circuit diagrams for most of it and, as you noted, the great majority of problems are cause by sloppy software/firmware or a stray particle from space destroying a memory cell. (maybe that explains why I can't remember things?). Plus, very few things are actually repairable at the PCB level even at the manufacturing facility. Agreed, there are many problems with wiring and connectors that can be fixed in situ.
I guess my main concern is in moving the computer controlled electronics part of the system from the engine to the cabin (Speed control). In one sense this is good practice as the cabin is a much more benign environment than the engine compartment but we now have long lengths of wire and connectors to deal with. Correctly designed and installed (two very big IF's) it should actually be more reliable but....
Hydraulic steering can also have it's issues (Don't ask, long story) and you are right, function should always be checked before untying the boat
As you say, they are pretty much alone with this new product right now and will try to recover as much of their R & D as possible, hopefully from people with BIG expensive boats.
I guess we all have our "oh - S***" moments when docking but I still worry more about the guy in the floating palace with the "yottie" hat & remote control yelling at his mate as he drifts towards me :shock: I can fend off a boat our size but not 50+ Tons.
M
I'm not disagreeing with you.
Having spend my whole professional life inventing, developing and maintaining electronics controls and monitoring systems for aviation gas turbine engines, I am very much aware of the difference in testing, qualification and quality control between that standard of system and the stuff we get for boats
Right now if my steering failed I could use a dinghy oar and duct tape (gorilla tape better) as my engines are linked by a nice solid steel rod. I'm not so sure how that would pan out if they were both free to roam.
As for getting out my soldering iron and performing micro-surgery on the electronics on a moving boat ? I will give you a call the next time my GPS has a brain-fart
Seriously, you can't even get circuit diagrams for most of it and, as you noted, the great majority of problems are cause by sloppy software/firmware or a stray particle from space destroying a memory cell. (maybe that explains why I can't remember things?). Plus, very few things are actually repairable at the PCB level even at the manufacturing facility. Agreed, there are many problems with wiring and connectors that can be fixed in situ.
I guess my main concern is in moving the computer controlled electronics part of the system from the engine to the cabin (Speed control). In one sense this is good practice as the cabin is a much more benign environment than the engine compartment but we now have long lengths of wire and connectors to deal with. Correctly designed and installed (two very big IF's) it should actually be more reliable but....
Hydraulic steering can also have it's issues (Don't ask, long story) and you are right, function should always be checked before untying the boat
As you say, they are pretty much alone with this new product right now and will try to recover as much of their R & D as possible, hopefully from people with BIG expensive boats.
I guess we all have our "oh - S***" moments when docking but I still worry more about the guy in the floating palace with the "yottie" hat & remote control yelling at his mate as he drifts towards me :shock: I can fend off a boat our size but not 50+ Tons.
M
Captains Cat
New member
Wanna talk about aircraft fly-by-wire systems? :shock: :?
At least with a boat, you'd still be afloat!!
Charlie
At least with a boat, you'd still be afloat!!
Charlie