Second anchor suggestions

One caution about Danforth's. There are real High Test Danforth anchors. These have almost an identical pattern as the Fortress, with the "T" inner part of the fluke. These currently come in 5# 12# and 20# (Plus larger which we are not interested in. They are excellent anchors. They are better steal, and drop forged. But, they do not have the "mud position" of the 45 degree fluke angle, which the Fortress has. This gives the Fortress almost twice the holding power in soft ooze mud.

There are probably more fake "Danforth" anchors, out of thick gauge folded Sheet metal than any other anchor or around. I have a collection of them in my garage, which have come with various small boats thru the years. In sand, they work fine, in most cases. But if the going gets tough, they are more likely to bend, break or come out of the bottom.

Another anchor loved by many cruisers along the East Coast is the SuperMax. Update, they are going to be produced in Virginia shortly, and now have a #9 (10lbs), for boats up to 3,000 lbs--at only $99. The next size up, is $350 and called the #12 @ 18 lbs. for a boat up to 5,000 lbs. The next is the #18 (28 lbs) and good for a boat up to 10,000 lbs, @ $450. The #18 comes in both a adjustable and fixed fluke angle, at the same price.. The claim is that less scope is better in some circumstances…Hard for most of us to get our heads around. I have written to the owner asking about the #9, and may try it on the C Dory 22.
 
Blueback,

I wonder if you've been to the Channel Isles, off Santa Barbara? They're one of the homes of the deep bull kelp forests and a ring of kelp surrounds the islands except for a few entrances. I've motored out there in the dinghy and it's amazing to see the stalks rise up out of the depths with the fish wending their way amongst them. As a matter of fact, they've stopped cutting the kelp forests off Point Loma and that forest is thicker than ever. I don't think kelp is disappearing from SoCal. It's beautiful, but don't take your boat there. I did once when I was learning, it wrapped around the prop and killed the engine. Had to wait until the waves pushed me inshore to start the engine and get out of there. Once again, luck beats skill. And don't cut the Entrance bouy into San Diego Harbor, you'll be coming to a stop in the kelp.

If you get the chance, visit Santa Cruz Island. You'll find that the "harbours" are just an indent in back of some point, a couple of acres. Losing a little kelp off the bottom there is of little consequence. There's still a lot floating around the harbour and just outside the surf line. And you can see the stuff grow, the bull kelp grows a couple of feet a day.

If you're used to the Pacific NW, kelp may be a precious commodity. Certainly it's never interfered with my anchoring there. I enjoy both SoCal and the PNW but they are different. And need different anchors.

Boris
 
journey on":9a0frn9t said:
Blueback,

I wonder if you've been to the Channel Isles, off Santa Barbara? They're one of the homes of the deep bull kelp forests and a ring of kelp surrounds the islands except for a few entrances. I've motored out there in the dinghy and it's amazing to see the stalks rise up out of the depths with the fish wending their way amongst them. As a matter of fact, they've stopped cutting the kelp forests off Point Loma and that forest is thicker than ever. I don't think kelp is disappearing from SoCal. It's beautiful, but don't take your boat there. I did once when I was learning, it wrapped around the prop and killed the engine. Had to wait until the waves pushed me inshore to start the engine and get out of there. Once again, luck beats skill. And don't cut the Entrance bouy into San Diego Harbor, you'll be coming to a stop in the kelp.

If you get the chance, visit Santa Cruz Island. You'll find that the "harbours" are just an indent in back of some point, a couple of acres. Losing a little kelp off the bottom there is of little consequence. There's still a lot floating around the harbour and just outside the surf line. And you can see the stuff grow, the bull kelp grows a couple of feet a day.

If you're used to the Pacific NW, kelp may be a precious commodity. Certainly it's never interfered with my anchoring there. I enjoy both SoCal and the PNW but they are different. And need different anchors.

Boris
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Boris you have great posts and you do have an affinity to kelp after all -LOL
My home base is in the Pacific northwest - Vancouver Island- so that where I boat.
The westcoast of BC is trying to rebuild from an Alaskan transplant process - sea otters. Beautiful little creatures who love kelp. I copy a little info on the symbiotic relationship sea otters have to kelp.
Sea otter wrapped in kelp (Photo credit: Linda Tanner)
Sea otters are considered a keystone species because of the crucial ecological role they play in maintaining the health and stability of the nearshore marine ecosystem. Without sea otters, sea urchins and other herbivorous invertebrates are left unchecked to graze through swathes of giant kelp forests, creating barren stretches of coastal habitat behind them that once served as nurseries for fish, seals and hordes of other sea life. Now, a new study published in the journal Frontiers in Ecology and the Environment demonstrates that the effects of otters stretch beyond the habitat that kelp forests provide, even affecting the amount of carbon in our atmosphere.
Despite their short lives by plant standards, kelps siphon huge amounts of carbon from the atmosphere—what scientists call “primary productivity.” They take carbon dioxide from the air and turn it into sugar fuel with the help of sunlight and water, releasing oxygen back into the air. “Their productivity is on par with a tropical rainforest in terms of the amount of carbon they turn over in a year,” says ecologist Chris Wilmers of the University of California, Santa Cruz, one of the study’s authors. Unhindered by a lack of sunlight, water or nutrients as many plants on land are, kelp “just produces like crazy,” says co-author and biologist Jim Estes.
Cheers to Kelp and theirs buddies the otters.
Geoff
 
Amazon has a great buy on the #9 Delta, I only use 10ft of chain and this device DIGS in. The danforth is just old technology. Oh I'm a 16 so maybe consider more weight not sure you need the weight because this thing DIGS in when you set it properly.
 
jimicliff":1xnx3gqd said:
The danforth is just old technology. .
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You mean old because it was invented about 75 years ago, and is one of the inventions which helped the US win WWII?

Don't discount the Danfoth design. It is the exact same design for the Fortress, but the Fortress is in aluminum, making it lighter. If you could modify or build a Danforth HT to the 45 degree fluke angle it would perform as well or better than the Fortress in mud. In mud, the Delta performs very poorly.

The Danforth HT/Fortress design is excellent, and should be on everyone's boating kit. There are certainly places where the plow type (remember that the Delta is descended from the CQR plow(originated in early 1930's), which was(still is for some) the standard anchor for longer than the Danforth. The latest generation of anchors--including the Manson Supremen, Ronca, spade etc are far newer than the Delta, and are replacing the Delta or Claw (Bruce) on many serious cruising boats.

If you had a bad experience with a "Danforth"--I'll bet it was not a "High Test", or you were anchoring in rocks etc.

As for "old technology", don't discount the Fisherman type of anchor--probably one of the first true anchors--it still excels in certain conditions, and I carried one on my cruising boats, and I would carry one today, if I was Cruising in a large boat.

Old technology is not bad..!
 
thataway":1i51x2lm said:
Old technology is not bad..!
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Bob, like you I have amassed a collection of anchors over the years(some of them are lawn ornaments now) but one that I carry and use often is a 15 pound navy. Old school but I like it. Never overnighted in anything but a well protected anchorage though and I also drop a 7pd. slip ring off the bow with limited scope to assist and limit swing. I use a PWC (3pd. slip ring) anchor as a stern tie - 30ft. rode(no chain) attached to the stern eye(under swim platform) and thrown towards shore. The trick is to hold the anchor and half the rode coiled up in one hand, about a 6ft. space then the rest of the rode coiled up in the other hand. Throw the anchor and first coil (underhanded) and as soon as it is released throw the second coil. If you are superstitious though ask the sea gods to forgive your sin of throwing an anchor :wink:

Regards, Rob
 
journey on":2pgd90fd said:
you'll be coming to a stop in the kelp.
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A little bit of a derail for an anchoring thread, but I've had kelp almost tear an outboard off of a skiff while running on step in very familiar waters, but at night. Glad to have not quite learned the hard way! It poses an issue for navigating, as well as anchoring, and not yet mentioned, can make anchor pulling a challenge, not so much from hanging onto your anchor, but from constant stripping of kelp leaves from your rode. That said, I have done caught some impressive halibut in 30' of water by anchoring in kelp (with a bona-fide high-test danforth), so...
 
With fortress fx 7,can you get it to break down to fit in stern,step storage lockers? Want to keep chain and rhode in there,hoping may be able to fit anchor? Being that space is limited and trying to keep deck and other areas open for use trying to think of better organization for next trip. Don't want milk crate in way if possible. thanks.
 
I don't know about the 23, but it would be hard to keep the 7 Fortress broken down in the 22 lazarette. Don't know about the step lockers, because of the width of the fluke. I keep all 3 of mine under the dinette seat, along with their rodes, a shovel, a spare prop, prop wrench extra dock lines etc. It only takes a couple of seconds to grab the assembled anchor and a rode for deployment.

If you want to leave the lines outside, then hang them in the cockpit from the sides if necessary.
 
Danforth anchors have been around for a while and work well. My uncle piloted a Higgins boat in WWII and told me that the way they refloated landing craft stuck on the beach was to take a danforth back from each quarter and, with the engine in fast forward, winching the boat out to deeper water, the prop wash digging it's own channel. Amazing holding power.

One problem I have found with them is holding in an environment with shifting tides (Bahamas). A CQR or Delta will reset and dig itself back in, as the boat changes 180 degrees with the tide. A Danforth will often foul itself and skate along on its back, refusing to hook back up. Not an issue with a Bahamian, 2 anchor rig, but I would never use a one danforth primary in this situation.
 
I have used the combination of a Danforth and CQR in a Bahamian moor for several days, in the ICW off Beaufort N.C. The problem was that the two rodes wrapped around each other. A better set would have been with chain, then a swivel near the bottom, and a single rode to the boat. I have no idea why the boat always went around the center point in the same direction…(Rudder was straight ahead.)

For those who are not familiar with the Bahamian moor, you drop one anchor, set it well, then go at 180 degrees to the current direction, and the distance for the scope of a second anchor (good reason to carry lots of rode), and set the second anchor, so that the boat is riding to one or the other of the anchor as the current shifts. We always set the CQR first, since often it had to drag a little before we got a good set--the Danforth HT usually set within a few feet. On that particular boat we had two windlasses. One was manual, and had two chain chain gypsies, and two capstan heads. The electric had a chain gypsy on one side and a cat head on the other side. This made for a lot of versatility when mooring, especially since we carried 3 anchors on the bow sprit, and another two lashed on the deck just aft of the windlasses.
 
Like the idea of having 2 anchors out when overnighting. My boat came with 25 manson supreme,I still have 15lb manson from old boat. I put all that in a milk crate and found myself moving it last weekend. Shape of the manson takes up good amount of space. Think I will put chain and rode in lazeret get the fortress fx 7 and store that inside large storage inside. Seemed like everything was in the way this trip,going to get more organized next trip.
 
Larry Patrick":dq2ntal0 said:
Like the idea of having 2 anchors out when overnighting.
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One thing to possibly take into account is that if you are in a populated anchorage it can be good to see what (most) everyone else is doing so that you all swing similarly. In other words, if twenty boats all have a single anchor and long rode out, but then one person is swinging really "short" -- or not swinging at all due to bow and stern hooks -- collisions can ensue.

If there is more room, or a situation where boats don't tend to swing (tradewinds, etc.) then maybe not an issue. Anyway, just something to think about.
 
One probably-obvious thing I could have mentioned is that of course the non-swinging of having two anchors (if they are set bow and stern, not Bahamian moor or other way) can be a plus. For example, if anchored in a calm and narrow side channel, where you want to lie parallel to the bank and not swing out.

For more typical anchoring situations I've tended to just set one good hook I trust (and then swing), because it seems simpler and allows the boat to do what it wants to vis-a-vis wind and waves. And if I don't trust my one anchor/rode (in principle) then I figure that probably means I should beef it up. That said, I have a few times set two bow anchors in a V shape with the C-Dory --- because it helped damp down the major sailing at anchor (which I didn't experience with previous boats) (hello, boat like a leaf!). This was in locations where I wasn't going to be going all the way around and tangling the rodes, and there was no-one else around me. I led them both over the bow roller.

I really enjoy being on a boat at anchor. The boat is "free" to move in its element (as opposed to being tied to a dock I mean - one hopes it doesn't become totally free of course!). There is the factor where you maybe have to get up at 3 a.m. (and 4 a.m. and 5 a.m.) sometimes, but it's still fantastic overall :moon
 
I don't like two anchors. I've done it, and had it go well, and had it go poorly. When it goes poorly it's worse than no anchor at all. The big thing is to avoid a spot where wind and currents will not have you turning in full circles. There are other devices that dampen some of the sailing experienced on these boats that I'd try before two anchors. But, to each his own! I'm likely anchoring in deeper water with more current than most, so it is likely the environment I'm in that has me wary.

I have put a drogue or a bucket on a line off the stern when wind and current aren't aligned and it helped keep the boat in the current and mitigate the effects of the wind. As you likely know, our boats like to lie stern quarter to the wind, which is common. This means when anchoring in any current the wind is likely to cause problems as it will want your boat to lie differently than the current will. If anchoring near shore, in sheltered waters, this is when a stern line to a tree is good, but that main anchor better be holding or you may have some gelcoat repairs or worse!
 
Kushtaka,

Agreed, two anchors is something I only do rarely, because if it goes wrong.... not good. And normally there is no need anyway.

I've used two anchors around a half dozen times, but that's in many nights at anchor, so definitely the vast minority. A couple of examples: One night in a side creek off a side creek off the ICW. Extremely sheltered and shallow, basically in the reeds, with excellent holding. A single bow anchor (as usual) and then a stern anchor taken out in the dinghy and set to hold the boat parallel with the bank, out of the channel.

I used two anchors in a V shape on Powell for a night with a strong wind but a predictable direction. These were both essentially bow anchors - the V was all forward of the beam. It was somewhat experimental (not something I've done on a bigger boat). It did work well for keeping the swing down to ... well, let's say "less far reaching proportions." In this case it was very unlikely that the boat would shift around far enough for the rodes to tangle, but of course anything is possible. I had the anchors buoyed in case I needed to drop one.

I also used two anchors on Powell (main bow and secondary stern) in some super sheltered coves with flat calm conditions (and no wind predicted). There would not have been room to swing in these locations. I set it up so that I was facing "outbound" and so if I had to drop the stern anchor I could pull forward on the bow anchor and get safely away from the stern rode on my way out. Could something go wrong? Of course, but I tried to do my best to make it work out. In general, like you, I prefer to swing to a single hook.

And too, with the C-Dory, I'm learning my way. I've done things with it that I wouldn't have dreamed of doing with the bigger boat, and one of my challenges is to sort out the "stupidly un-seamanlike" from the "well there's no reason not to do this, considering the boat and the conditions." That's a challenge for me. But if I didn't at least try, the boat would have sunk long ago -- not from a stupid move underway, but from the weight of the cleats, anchor, and chain that "seem right" to me for a boat! But not for a 22.
 
The happiest I've been on two anchors was when I took about 150' of line and connected two anchors to it, then used a swivel attachment to my rode, so the two anchors were essentially bridled. I had a poly buoy attached to the back of each anchor with p-cord.

So I had two anchors (deployed with the dinghy, well apart, and the ability to rotate on that tackle. Plus, if it got bad and I needed to start motoring I could pull up to the swivel, disconnect, drop the anchors back down, and come retrieve them later.

There was no real need for me to do this, and conditions were just fine for one anchor, but it seemed like a decent system that avoided some of the problems of two anchors while keeping some of the benefits. I'm sure any downside would have revealed themselves if I was trying this in less than great conditions.
 
I am considering switching to a 13lb Mantus as the primary anchor for my CD22. Currently I have an 11lb Lewmar Claw and a 10lb Danforth type. Both work ok in sand and soft mud but neither set consistently on grassy/weedy or clay bottoms commonly found in fresh water lake conditions. Anyone tried a Mantus?
 
Some of the folks in S. Florida have been using the Manta. From what I can see, and hear, is that they are going to be very similar to the Manson Supreme, and Ronca (Spade also). I doubt that they will be any better in weed or clay.

The criticism of the Manta is that it is bolted, and does not seem to have as much weight in the point of the fluke.

When we were long distance cruising, we carried 3 anchors--the Danforth (more recently the Fortress, for Mud), a plow (CQR genuine) or Delta, for average sand, rocks, etc, and a Fisherman, luke type. I had my storm anchor as a 150 lb Fisherman (Fortunately broke down into 3 fifty lb parts. I used 1/2" chain and 1" line--heavy gear!

I had a classic fisherman built in Bodrum Turkey, by a blacksmith recommended by the local boaters. He made it as I watched, and did not use an arc welding--it was all done on the forge. It was a classic 70 lb fisherman, with very sharp spikes on the end of the flukes, and the edges of the flukes could be kept sharp with a file (no galvanizing--it just rusted a bit--and the stock folded, so you could lay it along side the bow sprit.

That was the best anchor for grass and clay. Before I had this made, I had to dive, with a small axe, cut the grass/roots aside, and make a place for the CQR to start burying.

I have a lighter similar anchor in my front yard: Looks seaman like. --But I also have a WWII folding Stainless Steel sea plane anchor. A work of art--spiked flukes which are sharp….of course being of SS, it doesn't rust, and you can keep those flukes sharp. The Northill Pattern anchor is the closest thing you can find to this anchor--and I may still have one of these around also. I am getting along in years, and might be persuaded to sell the sea plane anchor…

northillopensmtm.jpg
This is not my anchor, and I got the photo off the web, but it links to NavGear, our own
Tim::

http://www.navagear.com/2010/01/05/nort ... any-craft/

Here is another like from there:

http://anchors.synthasite.com/northill-anchor.php

Actually the Northhill pattern anchor is one of the most commonly used anchors in the world--often by 3rd world fisherman who have the anchor welded up at a local machine shop. I have heard that there are several shops in Pensacola, who have a pattern, and make the anchors for the shrimping fleet and fishing boats.
 
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