Rules of the Road...

OK Larry,

I'll give your devilish question a try. I know of nothing in the navrules specifically addressing three or more boats approaching/crossing/overtaking. (Undoubtedly you will now quote me annex xyz in rule 7 applicable when in restricted visibility on a Thursday!!) :lol: :lol: But...under the take all necessary and prudent steps to avoid a collision guideline, the "safe speed" guideline and the precedences of sail/power, overtaking/overtaken, and the avoid maneuvering to port if possible guideline. All vessels should slow to a safe speed, defer to the precedences regarding sail and crossing, use their VHF to declare intentions or inquire of the other vessels, possibly sound five blasts to get everybody's attention prior to radio communication. Prudent seamanship is the guide here.

Now, my question: When you look out the forward window and see those vessels, what is a quick way to check to see if you are on a collision course?
 
Barry,

Rule 15 has the clue:

Rule 15

When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.
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The statement "two power-driven vessels" means that this rule only applies to two vessels crossing.

If more that two vessels are involved, it become a "special case" and all must slow or stop, and proceed with caution until danger of collision is passed.

The Rules are not like highway laws, and do not attempt to manage multiple (three or more) vessel situations.

If two of the vessels are large or ships and one is a C-Dory, the small boat should stay out of it until the big guys work their problem out and then proceed when clear.

Your last sentence is accurate:
"Prudent seamanship is the guide here."
 
How to know if you are on a collision course with another vessel?

Assume the other boat is approching from your left (port) side.

Hold your boat steady on your course and sight the other boat noting where is is relative to your windshield post, rail, or other mark on your boat.

As you proceed, if the bearing of the other boat is constant, and it just gets larger, you are on a collision course.

If the other boat moves to the right across your windshield, that boat will cross ahead of you.

If the other boat moves to the left, that boat will cross behind you.

Its the relative motion that counts. But you must hold a steady course to use this technique.

If you have radar, put the variable bearing line on the target. If the target moves down the line towards the center, you are on a collision course.

If the other boat seems like it will cross ahead, it may be prudent to slow down and let it cross. If it turns and looks like it will cross behind you , it may be prudent to speed up and cross ahead of the other boat.

Do all this well ahead of any actual close quarters situation and monitor the other guy until you are well clear.

Does anyone have another technique?
 
Well, there is the 'get on the radio and holler, "Arrrrrrrrggggghhhh! Ramming Speed! Prepare to go to Davy Jones' locker, ye scurvy dogs!" technique." Alternatively, you can say, "We're all gonna die!" (there is also a quote from Captain Ron that I won't use here) But, I prefer the technique Larry discussed regarding constant bearing.

As far as "extremis" definition, I was taught that it is a situation where BOTH vessels must take action to avoid a collision or lessen potential damage.

Larry, I looked on page 7 and didn't see where a particular question was missed (but, then I am a guy and according to the spousal unit couldn't find my a... well, you know. :wink: ) Care to repeat it?

Anyone who has run at night, especially near a city where the background lights can make trying to pick nav aid lights or other boats out can be tough, knows that is completely different from daytime. Anyone care to name three or more examples of what a single white light could be? (And this is why it's important to slow down when running at night.)
 
A single white light could be:
1) A boat at anchor
2) A power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots - like a dinghy. Note, I believe this rule applies for international waters, in inland waters the running lights are required.
3) Around here a kyak or rowboat foolishly out at night with a flashlight strapped to the bow (seen it).
4) The front porch light of someone's house on shore.
 
rogerbum":3tteo0q0 said:
A single white light could be:
1) A boat at anchor
2) A power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots - like a dinghy. Note, I believe this rule applies for international waters, in inland waters the running lights are required.
3) Around here a kyak or rowboat foolishly out at night with a flashlight strapped to the bow (seen it).
4) The front porch light of someone's house on shore.
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And, a stern light of a vessel underway.

All of the above are reasons why night running takes a different mindset. Rarely are the lights you see on boats like the nice, neat visuals on-line or in the books. So, is it moving? Towards you or away from you?

And, another question: Many of our boats have radar; are we required to have it on while underway? (Rule 5 reference)
 
Larry's unanaswered question was the one about multiple vessels crossing that I attempted to answer.

Another white light one should think about is the all around white light shown at the stern of a tow. Around here that could be a football field size log boom riding six inches above the water.

Larry's answer about a quick line of bearing using an object on your boat is the one I was thinking of, I had not thought of using the radar.

As far as the radar goes, it is like a radio, if you have one on board and it is functional, it must be used as part of the watchstanding requirement, regardless of visibility.

Now for a question: You see another vessel approaching you headon and you have no radio, aside from turning the boat, what should you do to indicate your intentions?
 
Wasn't this addressed earlier? Sound horn, one blast signaling intention to turn to starboard (passing port to port) , two blasts turning to port (starboard/starboard passing). You're probably thinking of something else. I'm learning a lot on this thread. Thanks.
 
Ooops. You are right, both in the answer and in the note that the topic has been covered already. A senior moment. But where is your question?
 
Guess I'm late to the party again; I thought Barry's response and Larry's response to the "more than two boats" was covered. Here's another take...

"The presence of more than two vessels may preclude full compliance with the Rules; action required with respect to one vessel may conflict with the action required with respect to one or more of the others. Special circumstances exist."

Back to my words again: generally if you slow down, the situation will tend to take care of itself. If not, a call on the VHF. If still NOT, I'd slow to just making steerage while things get sorted out.

Since there are no "lines in the water" like on the highway, the Rules are certainly different from "driving a car." Thus, my push for folks on the water to have some familiarity with "the Rules." Learnin' is a good thing. :wink:

Here's a typical lights situation: You are underway at night. You see a white and red light to your right. The white light is to the left of the red. Then the white disappears and immediately reappears to the right of the red and the red goes out . What is going on?
 
dotnmarty":11e4btv3 said:
OK here's a question. Maybe not a 'rule of the road' but certainly seamanship related. What is a corpen turn?
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Executing a turn with two or more vessels so that they stay in relative bearing of each other. Note: this move has not been performed in any C-Brat gathering we've been involved in. :mrgreen:
 
od answer Jim! You'd pass that as an OOD Underway. As an Engineer, I had to qualify but never stood a bunch of watches.

"Turn" - changing course so that a "True Bearing" relationship is maintained
between two or more ships....

Ships A & B or steaming together in "Line Ahead" on a course of 000, with
Ship B 1000 yards astern of Ship A. A 90 degree "Turn" to Starboard is
ordered. The ships turn (at the same time) and Ship B is no longer 1000
yards astern, but 1000 yards on the Starboard beam of Ship A.

"Corpen" - changing course so that a "Relative Bearing" relationship is
maintained between two or more ships...
(....and likely to be referred to as "wheeling" which is quite descriptive
at times , but not always)

Ships A & B steaming as above. A 90 degree "Corpen" to Starboard is orderd.
Ship A turns 90 degrees to new course 090. Ship B delays her turn, waiting
to turn to at the same point in the ocean at which A turned, in order to
remain in "LineAhead", 1000 yards astern of A after the maneuver. Complexity
is added when formations become larger or oriented in different fashion,
with 90 degree "corpens" by ships in "Line Abeam", requiring the same timed
"wheeling" motion practiced by foot soldiers wheeling" in a marching formation.

Now for my question....

In Navigation, where is the term "Roger chases Mary" used?

Hope all the Rogers and Marys don't take this personally.... :shock:

Charlie
 
Roger? Mary? Total shot in the dark, but does it have anything to do with ship to ship communication?

This is one of the most informative threads ever! The only hope of doing the right thing in an emergency, in particular, comes from constant learning and relearning these rules (and a whole lot of other stuff, too, of course.)

One of the things you learn from reading these rules and thinking about what they mean, is how important precision and clarity are when you’re telling somebody what they’re supposed to do. Rules of conduct for most human behavior will always be gray at the edges. When the conduct involves boats on water, it is especially difficult to write something down that makes sense. The more specific you try to be, the more difficult the task. Hence the infuriating beauty of Rule 2 – “Be careful and do the right thing.”

Sometimes things that are supposed to clarify just make things worse. Here is an example from Rule 3. It is a defined term that has been cited in this thread:

“(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.”

Compare “which restrict maneuverability” with “which do not restrict maneuverability.” This is an example of a rule drafter who got going and didn’t know when to stop. See if you can answer these questions without coming to some mutually exclusive results:
• Do nets, lines, and trawls always restrict maneuverability?
• Do trolling lines never restrict maneuverability?
• When used the first time, does “other apparatus” include trolling lines?
• When used the second time, does “other apparatus” include nets, lines, or trawls?
• Does “other apparatus” mean the same thing both times it’s used?
• Do some other fishing apparatus sometimes restrict maneuverability?

Remember, one of the first rules in construing a law is that words are presumed to mean something. Part of the problem with this definition may be the misuse of “which” for “that.” (There are whole chapters in grammar books on restrictive versus nonrestrictive clauses and when “which” or “that” should be used.) I think what the drafter was after is, “. . . means any vessel deploying fishing apparatus that restricts maneuverability.” The drafter might then consider a stab at defining “fishing apparatus,” but that’s water full of shoals, for certain. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius.
 
Wasn't this addressed earlier? Sound horn, one blast signaling intention to turn to starboard (passing port to port) , two blasts turning to port (starboard/starboard passing).
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This may seem picky, but in International waters (in the Puget Sound that includes all salt water and Lake Washington), the horn signals are to indicate action, not intent.

The horn signal is given and the maneuver is started.

In Inland water the horn signal indicates intent. The signal is given and the other vessel must answer with the same signal if they agree, then the maneuver is started. The other vessel must respond with the same signal if they agree or with the danger signal (5 blasts) if they don't agree or if they consider the maneuver unsafe.

For pleasure craft, horn signals are seldom heard, and in the Puget Sound commercial vessels announce their maneuvers (like when a ferry leaves the dock) on the Traffic Control VHF channel.
 
Bill,

Since you are in the Puget Sound area, I will discuss fishing boats usually found here.

A gill net boat puts a floating net into the water. When the boat is deploying or recovering the net, the fish boat cannot maneuver to avoid collision.

A purse seiner deploys a net in a circle, closes the bottom of the net, and then pulls the net onboard. The purse seiner cannot maneuver to avoid collisions while performing this process.

A commercial crab boat drops and recovers a string of traps which are all hooked together. The crabber cannot maneuver while deploying or retrieving their traps.

A commercial trolling boat drags many lines thru the water, usually from outriggers. These boats can turn, but they cannot stop and reverse without pulling in the lines first. Also the lines are dragged at depths up to 20 or more fathoms, and it takes quite a while to recover the lines. As the weights are at the bottom of the lines, they cannot turn into shallower water without striking and hanging up on the bottom.

Even a C-Dory out shrimping can have gear at 200 to 300 feet down and recovering can take several minutes, during which, they cannot maneuver.

These are just a few of the many types of fishing boats and the type and gear varies from place to place and change over time.

The Rules have to be general enough to cover all the different types of boats. The intent is that the less maneuverable boat becomes the stand on vessel.

So it pays to learn what type of fish boats you might encounter in your area and stay away from them. I always try to stay away from working boats, as they are trying to make a living while we are out for our own pleasure.
 
Larry,

Thanks for the very informative description of many of the types of fishing vessels and gear we commonly encounter. Really, it provides the best evidence for what the rule should be about. What matters is whether or not maneuverability is impaired, not what kind of gear it is, per se. I think the definition currently in the rules actually clouds the issue. The definition could have been shorter and clearer. Despite my original "questions," and despite the ambiguity of the definition, I'm pretty sure we both have identified what the rule is really after. Maybe parsing the words is a little extreme, but why give lawyers something to argue about when you don't have to?

I couldn't agree more that the important thing to know is what you're looking at when you see a boat. BTW, are the length restrictions on gill netters more generous in BC than here or in Alaska? I encountered some behemoths on the Inside Passage that caused a real mental disconnect for me. I couldn't reconcile what I was seeing with what I "knew" to be the size of a typical gill netter in Puget Sound or Alaska.
 
Bill,

Washington, Canada, and Alaska all have different fishing regs.

As I recall, most gill net boats are between 30 and 45 feet long, and have one or two crew. Alaska gillnet boats seem to be larger than WA or BC.

Seine boats can be from 45 to 60 feet long, and have from 5 to 7 or 8 crew. Seine boats have a large boom with a large pulley (actually a power block) at the end or top. Seine boats also carry or tow a 'net skiff' which is usually an aluminium boat about 20ft with a large diesel engine in WA and AK. In BC the net skiff is rowed during fishing and may have a small outboard (25hp).

There is also a 'combination' boat which can be either a gillnetter or troller. The boat is converted by removing the gillnet reel during the trolling season.

There is one more thing to complicate things. A 'Westcoast' troller is usually larger and works the outside of Vancouver Island.

I have found that observing the various fish boats is interesting both on the water and in the harbors. The fishermen and fisherwomen are 'rugged individualists' who succeed by their own efforts in sometimes hazardous situations and waters.
 
NORO LIM":1nzymm03 said:
Roger? Mary? Total shot in the dark, but does it have anything to do with ship to ship communication?
Click to expand...

Nope, its a mnemonic used in plotting Maneuvering Board solutions. The Maneuvering Board is what conning officers used in plotting solutions to where their ship was going to be relative to others in a formation. It uses relative motion and vectors to do it and the R Vector always had to preceed the M Vector. Hence "Roger chases Mary". It's somewhat complicated but makes the solution of where a ship will be in a moving formation possible with great accuracy. I don't know if this is still taught in navigation classes but it sure was when I went through OCS in 1964!
 
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