Rule Automatic Bilge Pump

[hardee]

The latest Rule-Mate 1100 (the rectangular ones,) are all electronic, no float switch. And if they detect oil, they don't pump. I asked the mfg why they put this feature in and the reply was "to offer an additional, new feature." There's supposed to be a switch on the pump that tests the pump. Actually when you think about that, it only tests the motor.

Not being happy with all electronics with great new features, I installed a bilge pump with an external switch. That way, when I lift the switch, the motor comes on and I know all is well.

Boris

Bold emphasis mine.

I recently replaced both bilge pumps on SleepyC too, and did not like the auto sensing and maybe pump features so went with a larger (1500 Rule) and and older version 1100. They both have float switches and run on manual or auto. The 1500 has a 1.25" discharge hose instead of the 3/4", I think is what was on the old pumps. I have been happy with mine and the both work if there is water there, coming on at about 1.5" and pump down to about 0.5".

Harvey
SleepyC :moon [/b]

 

[primative]

e="Sunbeam"]I recently bought two of the Johnson Ultimas for my 22. I actually found them to have mixed reviews, so at first I only bought one, and for the second pump I bought a "regular old" bilge pump and separate float switch. But then after mocking it up in the after sump, I changed my mind and went for two of the Ultimas, because I want to be able to "toss" stuff into that area between the tanks, and the Ultima seems less cluttered and disturbable.

I don't have enough experience with them to form my own "yay or nay" opinion yet, but they are easy to test by placing two fingers over the sensors, as Ferret30 explains. They want to sit level, so I cut some fiberglass wedges to mount under the one in the galley sump (not found on all 22's), which is on around an 8-9º angle.

Sunbeam[/quote]

I need to replace my galley pump located on starboard side under the cabinet. I'm wondering if you are still satisfied with yours? Does it turn on adequately, before the water would get close to coming over your door threshold?

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Sunbeam]

I recently bought two of the Johnson Ultimas for my 22.

I need to replace my galley pump located on starboard side under the cabinet. I'm wondering if you are still satisfied with yours? Does it turn on adequately, before the water would get close to coming over your door threshold?

After doing some head scratching and experiments, I've decided not to even mount the Ultimas. I think they would work, but I'm not keen for a couple of reasons. First of all, in the angled sump under the galley, the choice seems to be to let the water get really deep (pump leveled with small blocks) and have it then pump properly; or to have the pump come on before it gets too deep but then not shut off properly (due to switch telling pump to keep running). I did experiments in a bread pan which pretty closely approximated the galley sump, and which I could change around, angle-wise, easily. Would the pump, mounted level on blocks, actually allow water to rise enough to go over the top of the sump? I'm not sure but.... I just didn't like it.

Experiment #2 was on a level surface (such as the transom sump), and I just felt that the pump let the water get too deep before activating. It would be fine on a boat with a "real" bilge sump, but that's not our 22's.

My next experiment is with a "plain old" pump and a separate Water Witch 101 switch. This is similar switch technology to the Ultima, but it can be moved around in relation to the pump to (I hope) get the best ratio of pump coming on soonest to pump shutting off properly. (I also considered the Ultra Safety Systems Mini switch, which comes on and shuts off at fairly low levels, but since it's over $100 and can't really be creatively positioned, I ruled it out for now.) I have the Water Witch and plain bilge pump in hand, but have not experimented with them yet.

If you would like an Ultima pump to experiment with, I have a very lightly used one (5 minutes in a bread pan) I'll send you at a steep discount :lol: Actually, I guess I should list them for sale here. I was thinking "well who with a C-Dory would want them," but now that I think about it, perhaps some of the other C-Dory models are set up such that they would work well. They do seem to be nice pumps.

Sunbeam

 

[primative]

Thanks for your research.

I checked "Cruisers Forum" reviews for bilge switches and someone contacted Water Witch for tech. questions and in order for these switches to work they have to have water with an adequate amount of total dissolved solids (TDS). It will work with salt water, and many sources of fresh water ie. pond, lake, well, city source, if it has adequate (TDS) but due to its built in standard of sensitivity it may not work with rain water or other sources of soft water. The post went on to say a friend puts a little mineral salt in his bilge for when it rains to ensure function.

So there are issues depending on your source of water, rain being a very important one for me. Still not sure what I will choose? As you mentioned earlier the Ultra Safety Systems Ultimate Junior is expensive but got great reviews, though I think you said it would not fit? I have not checked dimensions.

Tom

 

[Will-C]

Rule makes a small fused bilge pump panel. It has off, automatic, and manual positions. A red light lights when the pump is running. The manual position is spring loaded back to off so you have to hold it in that position to have the pump continue to run. We added a Rule 27s bilge pump for a second bilge pump as our bilge pump from the factory just wired for an off on switch. If the boat is untended in the water the auto feature is nice. The off position is great when the boat is not being used since I have it wired direct to the battery from the switch. The manual position is nice to test to see if the pump is working. See it in the www.defender.com catalog page 103 of their 2012 catalog. Price $26.99 item # 500698 It looks nice and the fuse is accessible from the front of the panel. It works with any model with an automatic float switch.
D.D.

 

[primative]

Will-C

I might not have been clear in my post. I'm talking about the float switch for the the bilge pump in the cabin under the cabinet. My boat being a 99.

I agree with you the three way switch at the panel is a good way to go. Thats what I have for my stern bilge pump and I guess will be best option for when I get rid of the original factory pump under the cabinet that never stops checking -no quiet-no sleep model, wired to rocker switch panel.

Tom

 

[Sunbeam]

.. in order for these switches to work they have to have water with an adequate amount of total dissolved solids (TDS). It will work with salt water, and many sources of fresh water ie. pond, lake, well, city source, if it has adequate (TDS) but due to its built in standard of sensitivity it may not work with rain water or other sources of soft water.

You know, I had seen that in the Water Witch literature, and I thought about mentioning that in my previous post, but I was trying not to sound too detail-oriented (ha, ha, as if that's possible). It is a concern if one has a lot of "pure" rain water coming in. That's the main thing that made me interested in the USS switch instead. But.... I figured that at this point in time, the only time my boat is unattended is when it's on the trailer and it should be both covered and have the drain plug out (at this point I don't leave it in the water anywhere for very long unattended). So... I'll see how the Water Witches work and if rainwater is too pure for me to count on it, then I may get a USS switch instead.

As you mentioned earlier the Ultra Safety Systems Ultimate Junior is expensive but got great reviews, though I think you said it would not fit? I have not checked dimensions.

It's the USS Mini I was looking at (smaller than the junior). What I like about it is that not only is it a great switch (have used them in the past on OPB's), but it has good "on/off" specs in terms of height (most switches would let the water get deeper before the pump comes on, which with our shallow sumps means "wider area soaked"). However, still probably not as good as I can get the Water Witch one by setting the height, especially in the galley sump where there is not that much room for side-by-side pump/switch (important because of the slope). Plenty of room in the after sump though (and no slope complication), so if I do go with a Mini, perhaps I'd use the Water Witch in the galley sump and the Mini in the after sump. Ultimately, I could see benefits to moving the galley sump to the area just ahead of the door like in the slightly later boats.

 

[ferret30]

I don't see any problem with the Ultima for a CD 22, especially in the bilge. From my experience, they are equivalent or better than the float switch Rule pump that was in there before. Now I have both, with one mounted higher than the other so that the second is basically a backup.

I think if you list them here, people would buy them. I think Thataway (Bob) recommended them to me, and now I recommend them. But I don't have a pump in the galley like your boat does.

 

[Sunbeam]

Thanks for the input, and you are probably right in that they would work well for a number of C-Doryers. I will list them here then as soon as I get a chance. They do seem like nice pumps - very tidy all in one piece.

I don't see any problem with the Ultima for a CD 22, especially in the bilge.

I think the main problem is in the sloped sump that is under the galley on some 22's. Because you have to have the pump level. That raises the vane section and sensor up high enough that the water has to get very deep before it comes on. If you run it not level, the switch keeps telling the pump to pump even after the area where the pump is is dry, so endless cycle.

But then only a small percentage of us have the sloped sump.

Sunbeam

 

[primative]

Sunbeam

I appreciate your details, especially after the horned guy with the goatee, fire engine red skin, forked tail, with the pitch fork gets out of my cabinet bilge compartment.

Do you know if the Water Witch 101 operates by the same principle as the Johnson Ultima? Looking back to my previous post RE: the (TDS) required for the Water Witch to function, I'm wondering if it is the same for the Johnson Ultima requiring a minimal TDS in the water?

You mentioned some things about the Ultra Safety Systems Mini (USS Mini), that it has good pick up characteristics, not letting the water get as deep as some. I didn't understand why you think you probably will improve on that with the Water Witch by setting the height? Did you mean with the wedges you mentioned in previous post to level the bilge pump that is about 8-9 degrees on our boats with the inside cabinet sump, or is there actually a water height adjustment on the Water Witch? I think I understand you should not have a pump switch on the down hill side because it may remain continually submerged/activated due to the pump being up hill running dry first and not able to turn off. I am assuming you plan on mounting the Water Witch on the up hill (starboard) side of the pump?

Ferret30

I understand you are using your older float switch mounted higher as a backup. Are you using the Johnson Ultima switch in both your forward and stern bilges?

Thank you both,
Tom

 

[ferret30]

Ferret30

I understand you are using your older float switch mounted higher as a backup. Are you using the Johnson Ultima switch in both your forward and stern bilges?

I don't have a forward bilge on my 2006. There's no slot in the bulkhead, which means depending on loading I may get water pooling in the cockpit against the bulkhead (not much) and that doesn't usually happen unless we're sleeping in the berth.

 

[hardee]

Ferret30

I understand you are using your older float switch mounted higher as a backup. Are you using the Johnson Ultima switch in both your forward and stern bilges?

I don't have a forward bilge on my 2006. There's no slot in the bulkhead, which means depending on loading I may get water pooling in the cockpit against the bulkhead (not much) and that doesn't usually happen unless we're sleeping in the berth.

And it will, here in the PNW, if you sleep on the boat. Interesting to know of a 2006 with out that forward sump.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

 

[Sunbeam]

I appreciate your details...

Good to know, since I sometimes wonder if people would prefer I just gloss over things for once!

Do you know if the Water Witch 101 operates by the same principle as the Johnson Ultima?

I think so. That is, it has the same two metal surfaces that, once water "joins" them, activate the pump.

You mentioned some things about the Ultra Safety Systems Mini (USS Mini), that it has good pick up characteristics, not letting the water get as deep as some. I didn't understand why you think you probably will improve on that with the Water Witch by setting the height?

Well basically, what I'm thinking is this: In the sloped sump, I would like the pump right at the deepest point. I would also like the switch at the same level, so that the switch and the pump can be "on the same page" with water levels. With the Johnson Ultima, this can't happen, and also once you level the pump (required) you really don't even have the pump in the deepest point. I mean, it's in that place, but it's raised up.

With the small "regular old" Johnson pump I have now, I can set it right in the very deepest part of the sloped sump, and - from what I can tell so far - I don't believe it has to be level. So that's the first half solved. Then, because the Water Witch 101 is very small, I can have it right there next to the pump, also in the deepest spot. And, not only that, but the WW can be mounted on a single fastener, and then rotating it may allow some "fine tuning" to get it to work as well as possible with the pump, but without giving the pump a false command to keep on pumping when it's not possible (or if not rotating, then shifting completely). At least, that's my theory. I figured I'd probably mount it to the sump wall with a single Weld Mount stud. So far it worked in a dry mockup, but I haven't tested further as I'm about to "get underway" (via trailer/highway) for points southwest. Once I get there I'll resume the bilge pump installation.

Here is a photo of the small Water Witch. When water contacts the metal tang and the metal dot both, then the pump is told to come on. They show it mounted to the pump body or the hose (with a clamp or zip tie), but also mention mounting it on a single fastener and moving it around as desired for "tuning."

The USS Mini is a great switch, and I like that it goes on at 1-1/2" and off at 3/4". Many float switches don't come on until the water is deeper and don't let it keep pumping as low. but I don't know that I could fit it next to the pump in the deepest part of the sloped sump. Since the WW 101 was on sale for $27, and I thought it would probably work best in the sump, I just decided to get two and also try one aft. But if the rainwater thing proves to be a problem, I would probably go to the USS Mini aft. (Right now if the boat is unattended it is on land and either indoors or has the plug out. That could change in future though.)

It's fun to have someone else to "work with" in the thread while figuring these things out :thup

Sunbeam

 

[primative]

Thanks for going over this again.

Clears things up and makes sense to me . Hopefully will work as planned. You mentioned mounting a bolt to the sump wall. How are you going to do that? I thought all you had to do was glue on a small block of wood then screw the WW to it.

The rain water exception will be a deal breaker for me. Just depends how it behaves when its raining. You know how it can dump! Looking forward to how it works for you.

Where did you get the WW on sale?

Happy trails in the S.W.,

Tom

 

[Sunbeam]

Thanks for going over this again.

Well, for something so simple, there sure are a lot of dynamics involved, aren't there. I thought the Ultimas would work until they wouldn't :wink:

You mentioned mounting a bolt to the sump wall. How are you going to do that? I thought all you had to do was glue on a small block of wood then screw the WW to it.

That would work too. I'm probably going to "eliminate the middle man" and just bond a Weld Mount stud to the side of the sump and then fasten to that. Nice and tidy, and no wood. I already have a stock because I've been using them for other things.

The rain water exception will be a deal breaker for me. Just depends how it behaves when its raining. You know how it can dump! Looking forward to how it works for you.

I hear you on that. I wonder how "pure" rainwater is in many places and whether it will be an issue. If I were leaving my boat unattended and uncovered in a slip, I'd be less willing to experiment. As it is, my bilge pumps are basically nuisance water eliminators. So... I'll see how the WW-plus-plain-old-pump works, and then re-evaluate.

Where did you get the WW on sale?

Hamilton Marine. It was just a week or so ago but I'm not sure if it's still on sale. It's $33 regularly.

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... 31878.html

They also carry the USS Mini in 12-volt, at (comparatively) good price:

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... witch-only)-154936/4,23093.html

Sunbeam

 

[ferret30]

That is, it has the same two metal surfaces that, once water "joins" them, activate the pump.

Just to be clear, my Johnson pump does not have metal surfaces that detect water via contact or electrical resistance or whatever. The Johnson pump has a continuous plastic case with two rings marked on the side that are the high and low water sensor location. It's a 'field sensor' which detects the presence of liquid (i.e. your water filled finger in test mode), and doesn't rely on conductivity. I've sprayed clean water from a hose back there and there's no problem detecting that, or rain water.

 

[Sunbeam]

That is, it has the same two metal surfaces that, once water "joins" them, activate the pump.

Just to be clear, my Johnson pump does not have metal surfaces that detect water via contact or electrical resistance or whatever. The Johnson pump has a continuous plastic case with two rings marked on the side that are the high and low water sensor location. It's a 'field sensor' which detects the presence of liquid (i.e. your water filled finger in test mode)

Thanks for correcting me on that. Of course now that I think about it you are right, and I should have said "two circles of some material that get connected." But from what you are saying, the two plastic circles on the Johnson, and the two metal circles on the WW don't function the same way.... if I have that right?

 

[ferret30]

The Johnson one is 2 separate sensors. When both sensors detect water, it turns on, and it runs until the lower one no longer detects water. It sounds like the sensor with the metal contacts works like espresso machines and humidifiers that detect water levels with metal sensors. I think the espresso machine warned that the boiler would overfill if you used deionized water or something like that. Maybe that's like that pump sensor not working with rain water?

 

[Sunbeam]

Aha, that makes sense (I mean, not that I totally understand how the field sensors do what they do, but I get what's happening). Hmm, maybe I should keep one of my Ultimas then. Where I had the problem was mostly in the sloping sump, but it kind of put me off them altogether. Sounds like it would work fine in the flat sump aft.

Sunbeam

 

[primative]

My 2011 West Marine catalog, advisor , bilge pump section, says electronic switches use a pair of "Mirus" detector cells that sense the presence of water through the plastic housing using a low-impedance electrical field, like the Johnson electronic switch.

I've used the Johnson Ultima at the stern bilge for ~7 years. It has performed well, though I wish it would turn on sooner even when it was new. Over the last couple years I think it has developed some inconsistencies. Sometimes staying on after the water is pumped out, and sometimes the water needing to be deeper to activate. I notice the Johnson in the 2011 catalog (JOHPU#36152) has a different housing design than the Ultima style. The Ultima is not listed. Not sure if there is any improvement or just a different style. While looking online yesterday I noticed "Whale" has their own line and they looked just like the Johnson Ultima style.

I didn't know what a "Weld Mount" bolt was until today. Nifty. I can see why you would use it for your Water Witch mount.


Tom