Rub Rail Repair.....

[Sea Wolf]

I had left a message with C-Dory in Washington asking about how to make the repairs and then I read the excellent discussion here. The factory rep stated, interestingly, that they no longer build C-Dorys that way with respect to the rub rails and that they fastening the rub rails with 10-24 SS bolts which are then glassed in.

I guess they have been reading C-Brats.

Or they're just a quality builder that knows how to build something right in the first place that will wear well and last.

Any experienced builder familiar with the rub rail attachment problem would not use pop rivets on a dynamically stressed component like a rub rail.

Through bolting with quality stainless steel fasteners ='s a first class product.

Pop rivets (esp. aluminum) w or w/o backing plates (washers) ='s a short term fix to get a much lower quality product out the door and gone ( and often chosen mostly for a quick profit).

IMHO, YMMV! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

OTOH, I'm not sure I would want stainless fasteners "glassed in," as crevice corrosion could be an issue and then repairing it might be a real bear. Although I would have to see just what they mean about how they do it in order to know for sure.

 

[Sealife]

Joel,

Gotta love you, man. Fifty cent washers. Great.

Gotta love our site, too. Can find any fix for a C-Dory right here. Reason enough to buy a C-Dory.

Yesterday, while on CGAUX patrol, I musta caught my rub rail at the bow on something, and pulled it away from the hull, popping two rivets. Boat yard was stumped on a fix until I checked here. Posting pics.

 

[journey on]

I've been faced with exorbitant prices for Chinese fasteners and in addition I have to search for the right fastener. In inland San Diego County that's tough. And, the local bolt suppliers only sell full boxes. So here's what I found.

Bolt Depot has the widest selection one can imagine, with reasonable prices. They're in Massachusetts and I'm in San Diego, so if I order on Monday, they're here on Thursday. I have to build a bill of material so I know what to order, but the savings, even with postage are a lot. Quality is good too as far as I can tell. If everything comes from China, go for the price.

Sometimes I've been short a couple of bolts and had to reorder just several, but they gave the same service. Minimum postage is $5 and they've never charged over $12 postage on the largest order I've sent in. Where I live, that pays for the gasoline.

And just a question on drilling out the rub rail rivets. Why do you have to drill from the inside out? I've replaced a couple in the cockpit and if I remember correctly, I drilled from the outside in.

Boris

 

[Sunbeam]

I do similar, ordering from McMaster-Carr. I can get 316 stainless in most fasteners (although not oval head machine screws - have to get those in 304), plus Armor coated "graded" steel, aluminum, or bronze for those times I don't want to use stainless. (They are a bit slim on bronze, but that's typical these days :cry)

I do buy full boxes though (that's how they sell them) -- just resigned myself to that a while back and the extras always seem to come in handy for something.

And just a question on drilling out the rub rail rivets. Why do you have to drill from the inside out? I've replaced a couple in the cockpit and if I remember correctly, I drilled from the outside in.

I don't know that you do. IIRC I did most from the outside in (couldn't reach them all from the inside conveniently even if I wanted to). But in the end there were a few stubborn ones that I had to work at from both sides with punches, plyers, etc. Sometimes it comes down to inventive methods :amgry

 

[Kushtaka]

So there is a youtube video of someone selling a CDory 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCIjkHzEEgU

He is trying to sell his C-Dory, but starts out telling people he will tell them all the things to look out for if they are shopping for a used CD. The first thing he does after that is talk about the blobs cracking, and how that is very bad, and an issue to watch out for.

I've heard other people repeating this wisdom, and traced their knowledge back to this video.

I happen to disagree with the idea that cracked "blobs" are and issue to be concerned about. I must be, because most of mine are cracked, and it does not matter one bit. Water never comes in, nothing comes of it.

Is this relevant to years other than mine (1993), or is it a bunch of nonsense? If so, there is some mis-info out there that may be driving down the value of our boats!

Otherwise, I think the video is pretty good!

 

[Sunbeam]

So there is a youtube video of someone selling a CDory 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCIjkHzEEgU

He is trying to sell his C-Dory, but starts out telling people he will tell them all the things to look out for if they are shopping for a used CD. The first thing he does after that is talk about the blobs cracking, and how that is very bad, and an issue to watch out for.

That sounds like member "Flagold's" video. He's an accomplished boatman (and more), and makes some good videos. He did a lot of neat stuff with his 22 :thup

I happen to disagree with the idea that cracked "blobs" are and issue to be concerned about. I must be, because most of mine are cracked, and it does not matter one bit. Water never comes in, nothing comes of it.

On my boat, when I started repairing some of the rivets, I noticed that the ones that were broken/failed were pretty much the ones that corresponded with crack(s) on the inside, gelcoated-over caulk blobs. So my guess is that it is often a sign of rivet failure, or perhaps weakened rivets that have not failed yet. The cracks indicate some movement (gelcoat over a "soft" surface, so not a big surprise that it would crack anyway).

Is this relevant to years other than mine (1993), or is it a bunch of nonsense? If so, there is some mis-info out there that may be driving down the value of our boats!

I don't know how a 1993 was put together. The boats in later years (although I think not those built in the last year or so, although I don't have the exact details) have an aluminum rubrail, put on with aluminum pop rivets that seem as though they might have had steel mandrels (not sure, but the corrosion seemed to indicate the possibility of dissimilar metals, and some of the mandrels were VERY tough and not aluminum like). Then to "finish" the inside, a blob of caulking (polysulfide on my boat, from what I can tell) was put over the rivet end, and gelcoat sprayed into the hull. For various reasons (dissimilar metals, lots of strain on a thin, aluminum rivet tube, water that sits in the low point amidships, etc.) the rivets seem to fail after a number of years. Perhaps your 1993 is put together differently.

Since there is no core in the way of the rivets or rubrail, it's not like a "secret" failure is going to cause a sneaky problem that builds without one knowing it. Eventually the rubrail will pull away, and/or there will be a leak, or ... it won't. One can fix it prophylactically, fix it after they see some symptoms, or just leave it. A certain amount of leakage will just stop at "the blob," most likely. I never had any leaks, but then the rail pulled away and the broken rivets left visible holes, so... I would have had leaks had I not fixed them.

The satisfying thing (to me) is that it's one of those jobs where it truly is "better than new" when you get done - and it's pretty manageable. That said, it's something that's nice to know about if you are boat shopping, especially if you don't want to tackle it, and/or would just like to know about it. I often go into a boat or other purchase with the attitude of "I don't mind problems but I prefer not to have surprises," so I'm one who likes to know what I'm looking at.

Since all the C-Dorys I know of are built similiarly, I don't see it driving down the value (although it might increase the value of the very newest boats that are put together differently from what I have heard). I haven't found a production boat yet that doesn't have similar issues, so I don't really see it changing the value as compared to other boats. If you want a C-Dory, you simply deal with its specific issues as they come up (as opposed to the specific issues of another brand/model of boat - and it will have them!).

That's my feeling anyway.

 

[Sealife]

After reading the posts on rub rail repairs, here's my question:

The rub rail insert seems to be a type that can only slide into the metal rail that holds it, and the head of the rivet or screw is countersunk in the metal beneath it. If that is the case, how is the insert slid out of the rail? My damaged rub rail has pulled away from the hull at the bow for only about a foot.

Since I haven't been able to figure out how to include the photo in this msg, just go to my photo album and view the last posted photo.

 

[tsturm]

I had my boat alongside my dock last week...I had mooring whips, but somehow we had a ton of wave action and the boat came to close to the dock edge....and ripped the rub rail loose for about 5 feet....it sheared off the pop rivets....

I am sure this has happened to others... So what should I do ?
Drill out the remainder of the rivets and use screws ? or bolts ?

Anything else I should do while I have the rub rail off ?

Thanks

Gotta do it this week.... Lake Powell is coming us really soon...

Joel

I used 3/16 dia. x 3/4" Stainless pop rivets w/stainless back up washer. Sealed w/5200 :wink:

 

[Sea Wolf]

After reading the posts on rub rail repairs, here's my question:

The rub rail insert seems to be a type that can only slide into the metal rail that holds it, and the head of the rivet or screw is countersunk in the metal beneath it. If that is the case, how is the insert slid out of the rail?

Mike-

As I remember, I just FORCED the rubber insert back in with a big (wide & dull) flat bladed screwdriver, being careful not to tear or puncture it in the process. It's pretty flexible. Might use two or three blades simultaneously, if necessary.

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

After reading the posts on rub rail repairs, here's my question:

The rub rail insert seems to be a type that can only slide into the metal rail that holds it, and the head of the rivet or screw is countersunk in the metal beneath it. If that is the case, how is the insert slid out of the rail?

To remove the black rubber insert, I started at an end. Just because of where the failed rivets happened to be, I started at the stern on port side and at the bow on starboard. I then "peeled" the insert out to the point where I wanted to work (coiled/tied it up out of the way) but no further.

When the time came to put it back, I used a big plastic roller tool that is normally used to push window screen into its channel. After experimenting with screwdrivers, etc. the roller seemed to do the best job. I had the "to be installed" coil of insert in a 5-gallon bucket of warm soapy water and just pulled it up as I went along. Luckily I had help, as it is a job that takes some "oomph," and a second pair of hands is very useful.

Interestingly, because we smoothed it as we went along, it seemed to go in a little "better" than it had originally (not that it looked lumpy then, but it looked even smoother), and I ended up with a few inches of "extra" on both sides. I wondered if it might "shrink back" later on, so instead of cutting off the extra I tied it in place to wait and see. Six months later, after using the boat, towing, hot weather, and cold, it hasn't budged, so I'll likely trim it now. Our guess was that they might have put it in originally solo vs. we were smoothing/pulling lightly as we went along with two people.

Incidentally, it looks like it is available new, in case anyone's is worse for the wear, and is Taco part # V12-0303 (at least on my 22). I didn't end up buying a new one as mine cleaned up nicely, but IIRC Jamestown Distributors carried a good length for working out on the 22.

 

[SeaSpray]

I just pulled off one side of my rub rail to reattach it. I found a gap of about 1/4 to 3/8 between top and bottom of joint. all of the rivets holes are through this gap.
The only fiberglass the rivets go through is the piece that of the "shoe box" joint from the deck that goes inside the hull fiberglass.

I have never had any leaking because all the rivets where sealed on the inside. I am wondering if I should fill this gap with anything before reattaching the rail with screws and nuts? Have others seen this same type of gap?

I will put pictures in my album.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[SeaSpray]

Anyone know what sealant the factory used in 2004 time frame? They did not seal the rub rail at all. Only covered the inside with the blob of sealant.

Steve

 

[thataway]

Most of the boats I have seen have the top and bottom without much of a gap. There is no deck inside of the hull--that is glass which was applied after the deck was on top of the hull, to make one structure. "Generally this is only a couple of layers of mat and one of cloth (?) not sure about yours. I probably would fill this with thickened epoxy with milled glass fibers mixed in.. That gives some strength increase at the H To Deck.

After this goes off then put the rail back on--it is just cosmetic to cover the hull to deck joint.

Not sure why you pulled off the rail, if not leaking? No sealant between the rub rail and the hull / deck You could use one of several--from 3m 4000 to Boat life life caulk. I would not use a silicone as you get from the big box store.

 

[SeaSpray]

Hi Bob,

I pulled the rail because like many others, about 70% of the rivets had let loose and the rail had a large gap from the hull.

In the places where the rivets go through the gap (as in the pictures) the fiberglass looks almost 1/4 in thick. Now that I understand what I am looking at I am glad they did a good job of glassing the inside of hull to deck joint.

I will need to find where I can get some milled fibers. Since I will be using the same holes for the new bolts I am thinking I will put something like plastic straws in the holes. I can remove them after the epoxy cures and know where to drill if I need to.

These projects always take longer than you expect.

Thanks for the information,
Steve

 

[olekils]

I found this thread very helpful when addressing the same issue on my 1997 Tomcat.
Since a lot of the fasteners are exposed on my boat, I wanted to come up with a solution that is smooth on the inside but still achieves a sealed hull, ideally without copious amounts of adhesive sealant. I ended up using a stainless barrel nut with a soft cushioning washer to create the seal between the barrel nut and the hull on the inside of the boat. To prevent the stainless/aluminum corrosion issues, I also added a thin PVC washer between the screw and the rub-rail. It's a pretty expensive way to go about it, but ends up being very clean and low profile and should hopefully last for a long time.

Here are the McMaster part numbers:

94887A142 Binding Barrels and Screws
93650A104 Cushioning Washer
95611A223 PVC Washer

On my boat, the screws that came with the barrel nuts worked for almost all of the fastener holes except a few in the bow corners. In those places I just used some longer 8-32 stainless low profile hex head screws. Installation was done a helper inside the boat holding the barrel nut in place while I got the threads started. I used a bit of blue locktite in each screw just to make sure they don't back out since they are not torqued very hard. In most cases, the washer provided enough resistance to keep the barrel from spinning, in some cases it was nice to hold the barrel with a small Knipex Cobra pliers which has a very fine grip on the low profile barrel.

I just thought I would add this to the discussion in case anyone wants to add these in places that are exposed.