Removing gas from tanks

BrentB":ektr6zax said:
Wouldn't it be a good time to remove all gas and clean the tanks then replace fuel filters so the next launch you only need to add gas ?
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Maybe, maybe not. Residual gasoline and cleaning agents will have high exposure to air over the winter, in areas not normally exposed. This might lead to formation of varnishes and gum.

Some folks run a little injector cleaner additive in the last gasp of fuel, run dry, in the engines, so the gums and varnishes will be inhibited. I suppose you could do that on the tanks.

In my case, the storage conditions are so benign I have never suffered from tank contamjnation, whether water or other materials. And, no issues with water in the tanks or in the fuel. But, I always run stabilizer. I also have never run the engine dry, but with stabilizer in the fuel, the small amount of fuel in the carburetor (remember those?) has never gummed up or caused a problem. I do get out and run the engine on the water a couple three times during the winter. Cleans things out and invigorates the mind.
 
If you want to remove fuel from your tank, simply unhook your fuel line from your motor. Push a small nail along side of the ball check valve on the end of the hose the attaches to your motor. Pump up the primer bulb to prime the hose and lower the end of the hose to a point lower than the bottom of the tank. The fuel will siphon out into a 5 gallon container that you can pour into your pickup. I use two five gallon cans to keep the flow going when the first container gets full. Note: it is not possible to do this unless you have the boat on a trailer. Be sure to pay attention as it takes a while. Don't walk away and forget or you will have a fire hazard if the container overflows.
 
If you want to remove fuel from your tank, simply unhook your fuel line from your motor. Push a small nail along side of the ball check valve on the end of the hose the attaches to your motor. Pump up the primer bulb to prime the hose and lower the end of the hose to a point lower than the bottom of the tank. The fuel will siphon out into a 5 gallon container that you can pour into your pickup.
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This may work, but built in fuel tanks may have an 'anti-siphon' valve at the top of the tank. This valve is to prevent fuel from siphoning out of the tank if a fuel line leaks. If fuel flows when pumping the primer bulb but not when the bulb is released, you probably have such a valve. In that case, some kind of a pump is required. The anti-siphon valves on my boat made a 'rattling' sound when using the 12volt pump out system.
 
Sunbeam, I don't know all the ins and outs of static sparks well enough to explain it either but you can read a lot about it on the internet. There have been many lawsuits brought against manufacturers and Walmart(the largest retailer of plastic gas containers). The website - "Matthew Didn't Know" was started by a mother who's son died when a static spark ignited a gas can he was carrying. Some say the plastic can rubbing on your pants as you walk with it can build up static. There is a push to have manufacturers install a flame arrester screen in gas cans. And of coarse never add gasoline to any portable machinery(like a generator) until it has cooled completely.

Not trying to be a scare monger here just want you all to be safe. :thup

Regards, Rob
 
Sunbeam":t192o4tw said:
Robert H. Wilkinson":t192o4tw said:
Extreme care should be exercised when transferring fuel from 2 ungrounded containers. A good friend of mine suffered severe burns when a static spark ignited fuel he was transferring.
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Could you elaborate on this a bit? Since you say two containers, do you mean the fuel tanks or one fuel tank/one siphon tank?

I took an (apparently) extra step and grounded the metal fuel fillers on my boat. Does that change anything? (I touch the filler with any metal filler at a fuel station, but have to admit I don't totally understand the ins and outs of static electricity.)

I certainly wouldn't want to start a fire due to static.
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I do not claim to be an expert on static electricity generated by fuel flow. However, grounding the filler entry and grounding the fuel supply nozzle to the same grounding point or wire or metallic object prior to filling is SOP for any careful transfer.

As to whether Sunbeam's grounding of the fuel fillers to ?what?. That is a good idea. However, the typical ground in rhe boat, while it is on the trailer, or at the dock, may be at a different potential (read: voltage) than a fuel spout. Hence, grounding the filler to the spout prior to fueling is a good precaution.
 
AstoriaDave":12zae50b said:
As to whether Sunbeam's grounding of the fuel fillers to ?what?. That is a good idea.
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I actually started a thread to ask about this when I was about to reinstall my fuel fillers and the new fuel tanks (plastic Moellers). The tank instructions (I believe it was) said to ground the fillers. I had a few questions. From what I gathered not many people ground them? At any rate, after doing some web research what I came up with was to run wires from each of the (metal) fuel fillers to the boat's negative bus.

Since it's a floating ground (I think), does this count? Of course how else would you do it on a boat? I didn't find anything better than this, and quite a few people said don't bother. But I went ahead and did what I did (wires from both fillers to negative bus).
 
To do it really properly you'd need to run a wire from the ground on your boat to the ground on the pump. You see them do this when putting jet fuel in airplanes from a tanker (ground the truck, ground the plane).
 
Because I just put in a permanent gas tank to replace or supplement the two 6 gallon red plastic tanks normally used on a CD 16, I looked at this issue (again). I say again because I looked at it a few years ago when Tesla stock took a big fall because one of its electric vehicles caught on fire because of a battery short. Turns out that gasoline vehicles catch on fire quite often (no surprise) and Tesla's record is actually proportionally safer than gas vehicles.

With gas stations now having video cameras, there's lots of stuff on the web. The best gas station video that I saw was a guy filling a plastic tank in the back of his pickup. Like the video already linked, there was a static spark and it caught on fire. The difference was that his baby was strapped into a car seat in the truck. Makes for an exciting video.

The info that I've found about static problems isn't straight forward, but a couple of things are universal. If you are filling up red plastic portables, take them out of the pickup bed or out of the boat even if you are in the water and place them on the ground or the dock. That reduces the chances of them having a static charge. There has been some question as to whether placing them on a wooden dock is sufficient, but the consensus is to do it anyway. The dock burns and maybe not your boat. I've only seen people take the red plastic portables out of a boat a few time.

A permanent tank in a trailered boat is kind of the same. You need to ground the tank. But when the boat is on a trailer, a USCG marine grounding system (33 CFR 183.5720) doesn't work. That's because a grounded tank (and the grounded deck fill), are grounded to the vessel's battery, which is grounded to the motor, which is grounded to the water that it is sitting in (which is why you need to have your motor down when refilling).

But when a boat with built-in tanks is on a trailer, you don't have a ground even if your tanks are properly grounded. And you can't take the tanks out and set them on the ground. It would be possible to have a anti-static strap on your trailer (http://www.amazon.com/Gates-90330-Stati ... B000CRBR8U), but your boat would need to be bonded to the trailer (or the anti-static strap attached to your outboard so that it touches the ground when you stop).

What I haven't seen discussed yet is whether touching the pump nozzle to the plastic tank in the back of a pickup, or to your closed metal deck fill on your trailered boat, prior to pumping any gas is sufficient to discharge any build up of static electricity. Get the spark out before opening the tank or pumping the first drop. It would be something that has to be remembered every time, instead of an automatic grounding system, but it seems like it should be routine, maybe even with a grounded system.

The video that was linked above is interesting. It is the spark from the tank in the truck bed that starts it all, but if you watch the whole video, there are flames coming from the vehicle's gas fill (which the driver already closed, and from underneath the opposite side of the vehicle! I have to wonder if the driver spilled a couple gallons down the side of his truck before he even started filling the tank in the bed. It could be that when the flames started he pulled the nozzle out before shutting it off and sprayed gas all over, but there sure are a lot of flames coming from under the truck.

Quite a few of the gas station videos that I watched were women who got back into the vehicle while their gas was pumping because it was cold outside. They slid across the seat in their wool pants and walked over to the grab the nozzle. It was them that had the static charge. So even if your tank is grounded, if you don't constantly hold the nozzle you might return with a static charge.

It seems so unlikely until it happens.

Mark
 
On a boat with built in tanks, like the 22, how about a jumper cable from the OB leg to the gas pump housing -- something metal there?

This has been a great thread, bringing up stuff we should be thinking of, but for me the idea of grounding my boat when filling at the gas station has not occurred. I have always taken the red plastic tanks out of the car/truck, and put them on the ground though.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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My take on this, is some worry too much! Anytime you are working with gas, there is a possibility of fire. But until this thread, I have not ever heard of a trailer boat blowing up just from a careful fill up. (I would think if this was a problem, our overzealous government would already have rules/safety devices in place.) I think if one is doing everything suggested, Ie. no smoking material, remove portables from the vehicle they are in while filling them, hold the gas spout against the neck of the container, stay off your damn cell phone, etc, chances are pretty slim you are going to have a problem. Somewhere earlier in this thread I read something about 10gpm. From my experience filling up 5 gallon containers, I'd say the flow is more like about 5gpm or less. Colby
 
Marco,

Thanks for taking the time to explain what you've learned. I now understand why the grounded fillers on my boat "work" when the boat is in the water, but not when it isn't (and good point about having the engine down, not that I would typically raise it at a fuel dock, because who needs that "weapon" sticking out when in close quarters).

If a simple strap from something on the boat to the ground when filling on land would do the trick, I think I'd set one up. Why not?

I also never thought of touching the fillers *before* opening them. But then, does that effect "hold" if I lay the pump down to undo the fillers. Otherwise I think I'd need three hands (?). Sounds awkward.

A problem might be rare, but the ensuing fire would suck every time. Maybe it's rare enough not to go to heroic measures, but if there is something that can be done relatively easily, I'd do it.
 
Larry H":1c9r9noy said:
I purchased a small 12 volt fuel pump at the auto parts store, added wire with battery clips, 5/16" gas hose and the tank fitting that matched the boat's fuel hose connector.

To drain tanks, connect the pump hose with the tank fitting to the boat's fuel hose and put the end of the output hose into a gas can. Then clip the wire to the battery posts. That starts the pump, no switch needed, but a switch could be put in the wire.

Small pumps take some time to move the fuel from tank to gas can, larger pumps would work faster. Depending on the hose length, this pump could transfer gasoline from the boat to a vehicle's tank.
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Hello. I just wanted to point out a concern with the first response. First, this is a good method, and I do it frequently. We need to manage fuel a lot, and removing fuel from a boat's tank can be necessary, especially when the tank already has a ton of water in it. Often we are just trying to remove the water from the bottom of a tank, and so have fitted our suction end with a long piece of thin PVC pipe. It gets to the bottom of the tank.

We use a 12v fuel pump for a big motor and we fill into a jug.

We turn the 12v fuel pump on by connecting it to a battery with alligator clips.

So far all of this sounds the same.

But let me emphasize that making this connection to the battery WILL create sparks sufficient to ignite gas vapors.

We NEVER use the boat's battery to power the pump, always another, and always at the end of about 50' of wire to the battery removed from the boat's electrical system.

The other method that I like was already mentioned:

The bulb in your fuel line is a siphon. I don't use a nail to hold the valve open though, I just remove the engine connector (usually to my kicker, not my main) and stick a hose extension in there, then route out through the cockpit drain to a proper container on the ground. Once the fuel starts flowing it should keep doing so.

We use the latter as much as possible, but use the former (12v fuel pump on a semi-rigid intake) when we trying to get water out of the bottom of the tanks, but expect to get a mixture of fuel as well.

If you are regularly getting water in your racor separator you need to get your tanks pumped out.
 
I.am not expert but my father was severely burned in non gasoline related fire amd had skin grafts and infections. It was a tough.road. Be careful and be ready if you have a fire and assist others in the same situation iif you can safely I.try to.keep a blanket and abc fire extinguisher in a vehicle that is easy to reach.
 
Kushtaka":1vlzdfbo said:
The other method that I like was already mentioned:

The bulb in your fuel line is a siphon. I don't use a nail to hold the valve open though, I just remove the engine connector (usually to my kicker, not my main) and stick a hose extension in there, then route out through the cockpit drain to a proper container on the ground. Once the fuel starts flowing it should keep doing so.
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I tried this at one point and didn't have much luck. If I could get this to work it sounds like it has a lot of advantages. Not sure if it's because of the anti-siphon dealies that I think are in or near the tanks where the fuel lines connect to them? I have a Honda fuel tank connector on one of the ports of my Racor (Oh, maybe that was the problem.... that the air in the Racor prevented siphoning? It's been a couple of years since I tried this so I can't remember the exact problem).

Anyway, when you say "stick a hose extension in there," do you mean you use a small hose and force it in to where the little closer ball is on the motor attachment?
 
This is a great thread for someone like me just getting back into boating after many years!

I intend to use my boat all year long as weather here in the PNW allows. Would I be better to keep the tanks topped off? Also, with the boat sitting in salt water, will I need to winterize or will the water temperature (44.5 to 46.5 in winter) prevent freezing of anything that would otherwise be a problem?
 
yup, you need to bypass your racor. We have some older outboard fuel lines we usually use in this situation rather than tear down the existing fuel lines, but the air in the racor can make problems. It compresses and the water doesn't, so the fuel will just change the pressure on that air, not move fuel.

Also, on my CD22, I can't suck fuel out of the filler neck, I have to remove the filler from the tank itself and pull fuel straight from the tank. It's because the fuller makes an "S" curve (to keep the fuel in the tank!). Not all fillers are set up this way, so your techniques may vary. Just clip to a battery far away.
 
We mounted a Mr. Gasket 12 VDC electric fuel pump to a foot square piece of plywood. We used a switch and connected to the garden tractor's battery with a crimped eye on to a short piece of wire and wire nutted the short wires from the battery to the electric fuel pump before even getting near the gas. We just pulled the hose off the hose barb going to the motor from the fuel filter's base and plugged on the electric pump's intake hose and had the exit hose going into a plastic 6 gallon container. Then just flipped the switch. Just switch the fuel tank selector valve to the opposite tank to pull from the fuel other tank. If you are regularly seeing water in your fuel tanks or the water separator I would change your fuel vents as boats own spray used to get into our stock fuel vents. We switched to an Attwood style vent designed to eliminate the problem. I put some clam shell covers to further prevent water from getting close to the fuel vents. Pic's in the album.
D.D.
 
Sunbeam":1irum41l said:
If a simple strap from something on the boat to the ground when filling on land would do the trick, I think I'd set one up. Why not?

I also never thought of touching the fillers *before* opening them. But then, does that effect "hold" if I lay the pump down to undo the fillers. Otherwise I think I'd need three hands (?). Sounds awkward.
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Having a static strap long enough to touch the ground when your motor is raised up and on your trailer might look a bit flamboyant when going down the road. And it's another thing to remember when launching.

My pop-up filler is a one-handed operation. But even if you laid the nozzle down, it shouldn't be an issue. When you walk across the carpet and get a shock at the light switch, if you just stand there and touch the switch again, there isn't a second static shock. You haven't done anything to generate a second static shock. If you are electrically charged at the gas station, it was likely from the vehicle's upholstery and you are now grounded through the nozzle (there is a reason why most nozzles are bare aluminum). If the trailer/boat is charged, it is either from the tires on the trailer or fuel movement in the tank (which can actually produce a static charge). None of those static producing movements would occur during the time that the fill is opened.

As to the risk, the fact that the government doesn't have all controlling regulations on an issue doesn't mean that the activity is safe. There are federal are regulations on bonding the fuel tanks and fills on boats. There aren't regulations on filling tanks in your pickup bed (or your boat when it is on a trailer). Ask the guy in the video if that means it is safe.

I have a 15 gallon gas tank with a hose and nozzle that I fill up in town a couple times a year. When full, it is a pain to lift it back into the truck, and the manufacturer obviously knew that. It came with an attached thin steel cable with an alligator clip on the end. The instructions were to clip it to the nozzle before starting to fill the tank. The government might not regulate this tank, but it looks like the manufacturer wanted a defense to personal injury lawsuits. It might be a risk that I'm willing to take, but the manufacturer looks at the big picture.

Mark
 
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