Raymarine SeaTalk / NEMA 0183

C

Captains Cat

New member
I'm going back and forth with Raymarine Tech Assist on the internet now. They are quick but not very clear.

I'm installing

4KW Radome
E-80 Multifunction Display
DSM 300 Depth Sounder
S-1000 Wireless Autopilot
ST-6002 Autopilot Control Head
GyroPlus 2 Smart Heading System

I want the ST-6002 so as to have a wired backup for autopilot control as well as the wireless function.

The Raymarine Tech has told me NOT to hook the GyroPlus 2 Smart Heading System up to the Autopilot but to the E-80. He told me not to hook the Autopilot up to the SeaTalk Net but to use the NEMA 0183 connection from the GPS (I assume I could use the NEMA out connection from the E-80 also to feed the Autopilot as the GPS will feed the E-80 directly either through SeaTalk or NEMA 0183 In (another question/which one should I use?).

How does the Autopilot get the waypoint course info from the E-80? From the NEMA 0183 or from SeaTalk or either?

Looks like SeaTalk and NEMA 0183 do much the same thing, am I misunderstanding this?

How about connecting everything (except the DSM300 which uses the SeaTalk High Speed connection) to Seatalk...? Why use the NEMA 0183 at all? Except maybe for the gps connection for DSC on the Radio?

Charlie
 
If everything has Seatalk, there is no reason to hook up NMEA0183.

I think (although it's been awhile since I've gotten in depth in Raymarine) that the heading sensor can go to the autopilot so the pilot feeds heading to the E80. That way, if the E80 takes a dump, you still have a working autopilot.

I'm not sure the 6002 is compatible with the S-1000. If it is, then the hardmount becomes the main pilot control, the wireless the back up.
 
Thanks Matt. There's no dedicated connection on the S1000 for the GyroPlus 2 to hook up but there is a SeaTalk connection on each. I think that's a two way connection so it should work. If the E80 is also hooked up, along with the GPS, I would hope that they would all talk happily... :roll:

If I hook the ST6002 up to the SeaTalk as well, not sure what happens if I turn that AND the wireless controller on at the same time. Maybe it turns into a Garmin? :cry

I think the DSM300 is pretty much standalone with the E-80 since it uses a different SeaTalk connection (High Speed).

I will use the Navionics Platinum Charts with this system.

I'll still have the Garmin 545 chartplotter and depthsounder as a backup to the Raymarine system. Hooking it up next week, will let all know what happens. Any other thoughts?

Charlie
 
I just noticed you have a Tomcat- That changes things a bit.

My suggestion is to return the S1000. It's not heavy duty enough to steer the Tomcat effectively. Since you are already adding an ST6002 and heading sensor, you might as well step up and get a real autopilot.

The S1000 doesn't have a big enough pump to flow fluid for the two steering rams, so response will be slow, especially on a boat that can go as fast as a Tomcat. The hydraulic pump is designed for rams from 5 to 12 cubic inches.

The S1000 also uses GPS heading instead of compass heading to determine course.

From feedback from others in the electronics industry, there has been a lot of disappointment with the S1000, especially when pushing it's performance to it's limit.

Also, if you don't hook the autopilot to Seatalk, then the ST6002 won't be able to "see" the pilot.

On a 22 Cruiser the S1000 would probbaly do a fine job. The Tomcat probably needs a bigger pilot. I'd hate to see you install ev erything and not be happy with the performance.

Unless someone else here has an S1000 on a Tomcat?
 
I have the S1000 on my 25 with a single Honda 150 and it does just fine. I think you may be correct in the S1000 being inadequate for steering two engines and with the higher speeds that the Tomcat is capable of.
 
I agree with Matt, that the S 1000 is at the small side for the Tom cat. The two cylinders are at or above the upper limit of this system. Also the Gyro rated compass, is much more accurate and quick in its steering response than the GPS system is. (the S 1000 relies on the GPS). My local electronics dealer recommended against the S 1000 in this size boat/engine situation.

It may work in calm water, and trolling at low speeds, but I would consider it marginal in rough water and high speeds.

The Gyro rated compass is excellent for radar overlay--and that is a seconday application. Although the Tom cat is under 10,000 lbs, and over 25 feet--300 hp it is really at the limits of the system, especially when you consider the liquid tie bar etc.
 
Thanks all. I am considering replacing the S1000 at this point. Although I have 115's on my TC and very seldom run above 22 knots or so.

Dr Bob and Matt G, which of the autopilots would you recommend to go with the system I have?

I'd like to use as many of the components that I already have.

Thanks.

Charlie
 
Charlie, after loads of experimentation with my C80, I can say that Raymarine "Seatalk" is vanilla NEMA2000 with a proprietary connector. Treat it (input and output) like that and you can get GPS info, heading info, and all the other NEMA2000 outputs. You can also input SOB* NMEA2000 devices like Lowrance fuel flow sensors, GPS puck, and NMEA2000 compasses.

NMEA0183 is old technology now but is usable. The Raymarine techs play CYA and will avoid telling you something non-Raymarine will work. BTDT.

Don

*SOB = Some Other Brand
 
Thanks Don, have read lots of things about that. The E-80 also does Sea Talk High Speed and SeaTalk2(superscript) which is described as NMEA 2000. Will treat it as such.... Now if I could only get throttle controls, I'd have SMARTSHIP which I did with Sperry Marine on YORKTOWN (CG-48) IN 1997!

That way, I could send the CAT out by herself to catch fish, if I only liked fish.... Maybe it could catch a cow! :shock:


Charlie
 
Captains Cat":1z0vtpz8 said:
That way, I could send the CAT out by herself to catch fish, if I only liked fish.... Maybe it could catch a cow! :shock:
Charlie
Click to expand...

How about a mess of Maryland blue crab. Charlie. My fondest memory of the time stationed at NSS in Clinton Md. A gate guard owned a crab boat and he'd put an all-you-can-eat feast at the CPO club once/year.

Sigh
 
I had crab once, tasted OK but took too long. Sally had a dozen and I had about a six pak ( of beer, not crabs) or more and she was still eating and still hungry when she got done.... A lot of work!

Come East some time and I'll spring for a bushel though... We can catch them at the end of the pier! Or just buy them, a whole lot quicker...

On another issue, you folks with TomCats, what kind of autopilots do you have? Trying to size mine.... Gotta go look at the rams on the engines I guess...


Charlie
 
This question was hidden in my last post.

For those of you with autopilots on a TC255, what make/model do you have and how do you like it? Will get down to the boat today and look at the SeaStar Steering Rams to see how big they are so I can size the autopilot accordingly. Have about come to the conclusion that the S1000 is just not quite big enough.

Charlie
 
Charlie,

If it's any help, we have an S1000 driving two BF 135's via SeaStar using E120 and fluxgate compass and it works right out of the box. There is quite a long discussion on this somewhere on this site.

Merv
 
After talking with Raymarine Tech Support and Les at EQ Marine, I am still a little undecided (I guess that means I'm still not sure). The steering rams I have (two) on the SEASTAR system are HC5345's and each one is about 8.3 cu inches in volume. The S1000 says that is about the max capacity of the hydraulic pump. I believe since my engines are connected with the liquid tie bar, even though there are two rams (cylinders), hydraulically, they look like one.

Any comments from Brats? My other alternative is to go with the S1 system which has a bigger pump and has just been superseded by a newer model and is therefore on sale. I've already got the ST6002 control head and just need the corepak and the pump. The
GyroPlus 2 will handle the rate information while the GPS will give C/S info.

Charlie
 
What I'm not sure of is while the rams act like one, does that mean that they have avolume of 8.3, or 16.6. Because that makes a huge difference in the pump size.

My Electronics guys are off today, I will try to check with them Monday.
 
Thanks Mattl From what Raymarine and Les (at EQ) told me, the rams are in series, not in parallel, therefore the lower apparent volume. It,s not like resistors, just the opposite. I guess it makes sense. I'm gonna give it a few more days before I decide, since it's been a year since I've had this stuff to install :oops: , another week won't make much difference..

Charlie
 
Let's see, if the cylinders are in series, that means that the the fluid forced out of one cylinder (by the motion of the piston,) is forced into the second cylinder, moving that piston and returning it's fluid to the pump. Indeed there is no more fluid pumped than for a single cylinder.

Since there's no free lunch, the pressure has to be double that of a single cylinder. Half the pressure is used to move the first piston (and motor) and the remainder (the second half) to move the second piston/motor. Power is pressure X volume, so the pump(and electric motor) has to be rated for the required power, twice that for a single engine installation.

So not only check the pump volume capacity, but the motor/pump power capability. It may be sufficient in calm water, but not in rough seas. I'd assume Rayethon has the answer. Remember, the S-1000 is intended to be an inexpensive autopilot.

Boris
 
Thanks Boris.... At this point I think I'm gonna try the S1000. It's on hand and paid for. If it isn't sufficient, I'll sell it to some C-Brat for a bargain'. For sure, after all thie palaver, I'll report my results!

Charlie
 
Go to RayMarine web site and look at the difference between the .5 and 1.0 pump sets. The .5 is what comes with the S 1000 and is rated to 6.7 Cub in. The 1.0 is more robust and rated for 14 cub in cyl. I suspect that both are rated to 750 PSI, but the .5 will be slower.

Boris's post is interesting in that the force to turn the helm on the Tom Cat with the dual cylinders is considerably more than on the CD 25 with only one cylinder and validates the increased pressure.

I don't have an auto pilot on the Tom Cat, because I am mostly running on ICW at high speed. If I was going offshore or fishing, I would put on a Simrad AP 25--which has a virtual rudder feed back for outboards.

The problem that you may get into is that the S 1000 RayMarine has the virtual feedback. I believe that the S1 units all have rudder feed back units, and this can be a problem with outboards. The rotary feed back units, as used in inboards tend to be more reliable. The linlear, as less reliable and are used on outboards. Not sure how you would mount the bracket for a rotary on the Tom Cat--because of the outboard bracket.

The Garmin (T1, Gladiator) also has an excellent reputation, if you drift away from RayMarine.

So there are many things to think about. People who have the S1000 seem to like them--and for your use it may be OK.
 
Sea Angel has lost its autopilot system...... :(

The system is the RAYMARINE 4KW RADAR, C80, Raystar 120 GPS rcvr and the Autopilot: ST6001 S1G.

I had a compound failure of my RayMarine ST6001 S1G autopilot system on a return run from Norfolk to Va. Beach after hitting a heavy wave that had us really 'slap' harder than I would have expected..

1. I then loss data while the ST6001 Controller was in 'AUTO' and my course started to drift, no alarms, before I corrected my heading by going to STBY.

2. On troubleshooting at the dock, I found the shield leads loose at the SeaTalk junction for SmartPilot data, though the GPS to the C80 was getting its info. The rudder sensor shield lead was hanging on by a strand to the SmartPilot CPU.

3. After the above wiring corrections, my Fluxgate data was stable. I went back out and recal'e the system and all seemed OK for abt 30 minutes. I noticed my fluxgate was laging the Mag. STBY Compass and the Garman GPS displays. At the dock I tried to get the Fluxgate to follow a magnetized screwdriver when I positioned it around the sensor. It followed at only abt a +/- 45 degree range.

4. Raymarine Tech support led me to do some resistance checks or to pull the 'white' connector on the SmartPilot circuit board. This connector goes to the 'GYRO' ckts. I pulled the connector today and the Fluxgate follows the magnetized screwdriver wherever I position it.

5. I think the system will operate as is but I do not know if it will do its AUTO CAL functions.

Has anyone worked this system as a S1 verses S1G function? Is this a correct guess? The ST6001 S1G is out of production as near as I can see though WM does have a whole system for abt $1400. Repair cost is only a SWAG at abt $800 for a replacement 'GYRO'.....

Any suggestions????? :?: :?:

Art
 
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