Questions re hot surge brakes
- Thread starter jhwilson
- Start date
eace:Jack in Alaska
New member
My original solution to blocking out the brakes was a short piece of 2x4 held in place with a bungee cord. Since then I have gone high tech using a 1/8" valve in my brake line just after the elec. solenoid.
The valve is shut off after I park the trailer waiting on the tractor boat launcher to hook-up to put me into the water. When the tractor tries to push my empty trailer up the beach to park it the brakes would lock up causing the wheels to slide........not good. This valve solves that problem.
I have a big BRAKES sign on the tongue by the hitch to remind me to open it when hitching up.
The valve is shut off after I park the trailer waiting on the tractor boat launcher to hook-up to put me into the water. When the tractor tries to push my empty trailer up the beach to park it the brakes would lock up causing the wheels to slide........not good. This valve solves that problem.
I have a big BRAKES sign on the tongue by the hitch to remind me to open it when hitching up.
A couple of things: I one time lost the brakes on a 25 foot travel trailer, we stopped safely and made it home without the brakes. I had to stop and let the brakes on the 2500 series Suburban cool off. If you lose you brakes in the mountains, its no casual matter, you need to get that sucker slowed down and its not that easy. My gears did not match up well with slow or fast traffic speed.
On your controller, the spring that controls the master cylinder on the trailer may not be the right one. I would talk to the manufacturer.
As far as it goes, why jerry rig, I know its cheaper and more fun, if your brakes are not working right, just get an electric over hydraulic controller and be done with it.
The last thing you want to do is explain what you did or did not do in an damage, injury or death situation.
On your controller, the spring that controls the master cylinder on the trailer may not be the right one. I would talk to the manufacturer.
As far as it goes, why jerry rig, I know its cheaper and more fun, if your brakes are not working right, just get an electric over hydraulic controller and be done with it.
The last thing you want to do is explain what you did or did not do in an damage, injury or death situation.
I saw an interesting set up on a "U Haul" flat bed heavy duty trailer today on the road. Didn't get a close up look, but it had springs, and a threaded rod so you could adjust the tension and travel of the surge brakes. It was not just the shock absorber type of damper, but limited the travel and had a spring against the coupler. I suspect that with a setup like this you could set the surge brakes for light duty when going down steep grades.
I suspect that the U haul dealer can set up the surge brakes for the load.
I suspect that the U haul dealer can set up the surge brakes for the load.
Well, we picked up Placid C yesterday morning from the mechanic who had inspected the bearings and brakes and repacked the bearings, of course, among some other engine service. He said there was no damage to the bearings or brakes. We spent a great day cruising Holston Lake for the first time. Wish we could have spent the night but I had to be in the office today.
We returned home over the same route that led to the heated brakes earlier. I had planned to lock the surge brakes out with a C clamp on the steep decent but decided to see how they did sans the water in the hubs. It did fine. No over heating at all. So, what I have to do to preclude the heating again is to ensure the hubs have sufficient grease and to allow them to cool if they are hot at launch time.
Thanks again for all the help.
Harper
We returned home over the same route that led to the heated brakes earlier. I had planned to lock the surge brakes out with a C clamp on the steep decent but decided to see how they did sans the water in the hubs. It did fine. No over heating at all. So, what I have to do to preclude the heating again is to ensure the hubs have sufficient grease and to allow them to cool if they are hot at launch time.
Thanks again for all the help.
Harper
I am using this thread to bring up my issue with extremely hot hubs. I have a single axle, disc brakes with a UFP A-70 surge actuator. I replaced my calipers & pads last year. I just recently replaced all bearings and races with new. Fresh Lucas Hub oil in the hubs.
The last time I towed the trailer, I immediately checked the hub temps with a heat temp gun. The hubs were over 170. I shot the rotors and they were 245!!
This past weekend, I jacked up the trailer to find that the brakes were still engaged. I removed the actuator to do a little troubleshooting. The shock absorber and piston rod did not appear to be hanging up. What I do believe is the culprit is the pushrod release bracket. It would not budge when pushed. I am sure that there is not much there mechanically, but unfortunately the housing that it resides in makes any cleaning or inspecting impossible.
I am getting ready to purchase a new actuator assembly. I thought I would check with the panel of experts here to see if anyone else has had a similar problem with the actuator. I know many will advise on going the EOH route, but I think I am going to stick with a surge actuator. Thanks
The last time I towed the trailer, I immediately checked the hub temps with a heat temp gun. The hubs were over 170. I shot the rotors and they were 245!!
This past weekend, I jacked up the trailer to find that the brakes were still engaged. I removed the actuator to do a little troubleshooting. The shock absorber and piston rod did not appear to be hanging up. What I do believe is the culprit is the pushrod release bracket. It would not budge when pushed. I am sure that there is not much there mechanically, but unfortunately the housing that it resides in makes any cleaning or inspecting impossible.
I am getting ready to purchase a new actuator assembly. I thought I would check with the panel of experts here to see if anyone else has had a similar problem with the actuator. I know many will advise on going the EOH route, but I think I am going to stick with a surge actuator. Thanks
The times I have had similar problems with surge brakes were after a long downhill run, where I was using engine compression (diesel) to slow the truck down. The break calipers were constantly being closed by the trailer pushing against the truck on the down grade.
The accentuater being hung up, would cause the same type of symptoms. I suspect in your case that there is probably both rust and some debris/dirt, oil etc in that area. If you cannot clean this out with solvents and compressed air Ihe 130 PSI range, I would probably replace the unit. It may be worth shooting mineral spirits or WD 40 (can be bought in gallon cans) in the accessible parts, and flush, then work the accentuated back and forth with the truck hooked up, trailer wheels blocked. --blow out with compressed air... You should be able to see the accentuater moving as you do this.
The accentuater being hung up, would cause the same type of symptoms. I suspect in your case that there is probably both rust and some debris/dirt, oil etc in that area. If you cannot clean this out with solvents and compressed air Ihe 130 PSI range, I would probably replace the unit. It may be worth shooting mineral spirits or WD 40 (can be bought in gallon cans) in the accessible parts, and flush, then work the accentuated back and forth with the truck hooked up, trailer wheels blocked. --blow out with compressed air... You should be able to see the accentuater moving as you do this.
Thank you Dr. Bob. I did shoot the area with a lot of penetrating oil. I am sure that you are correct about rust/crud/etc. buildup that is causing the hanging up of the brakes. I think that all that is in there is the bracket and a return spring.
I already have the replacement UFP A-75 in an online shopping cart.
I already have the replacement UFP A-75 in an online shopping cart.
I jack my trailer up to get the tires off the concrete, and take the weight off the bearings when I store my boat. I noticed that the wheels do not spin far after I stop spinning the wheel. I asked about that at the mechanics, "shouldn't the wheel keep spinning, because I thought the drag was way to stiff. He said that the brakes (Kodiak stainless) are not designed to retract from the rotor, only to not apply an increased pressure. So, there is always some drag there. They do not have a spring retraction. Not my favorite method, because I have noticed the same hot brakes on long descents too, and even warm when running on flat ground, they are warmer than the non brake axle.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
" are not designed to retract from the rotor, only to not apply an increased pressure. So, there is always some drag there. "
I agree. I was told that there is some run-out on the rotor by design. It is this "high" spot on the rotor that will push back the pad/piston when there is no hydraulic pressure applied. When my actuator is not hung-up, my wheel will spin freely with a little noticeable drag. But when my actuator hangs up, even though it is pulled all the way forward, my brakes are engaged and I cannot spin the wheel. My truck pulling the trailer can spin the trailer wheels when it is hung up. But that is also when I can boil water or cook an egg on my hubs.
I agree. I was told that there is some run-out on the rotor by design. It is this "high" spot on the rotor that will push back the pad/piston when there is no hydraulic pressure applied. When my actuator is not hung-up, my wheel will spin freely with a little noticeable drag. But when my actuator hangs up, even though it is pulled all the way forward, my brakes are engaged and I cannot spin the wheel. My truck pulling the trailer can spin the trailer wheels when it is hung up. But that is also when I can boil water or cook an egg on my hubs.
colbysmith
Active member
If it’s dragging at all, it’s decreasing your fuel mileage. Just another reason I want to go back to all electric! :wink: But if your preference is surge disc, if the penetrating oil doesn’t work I agree with getting a new actuator. With drums my greased hubs ran around 135F and my oil bath hubs ran around 95F. I think I remember my current oil bath hubs on EOH disc running around 105-110F. Colby
All the answers posted are good. But, I will add my Magic Tilt Experience, which is mostly bad.
I lived at 4400’ have to cross 10,000’ passes t get where I usually want to go.
Going down 8% grades s the issue.
Surge brakes are fine for flat landers and the adjustment on them is set by the factory with warnings don’t adjust.
I had to replace my surge unit Last year and did not head Gary’s “Daybreak” advice and buy elecTric over surge. Cost and extra battery. So I am coping with that error. I should have listened.
I have got the brakes so hot they smoke and the heat melts the Bering grease. Not good on highway,
By the way you can buY an inexpensive thermometer gun to check your wheel
Temp at each gas stop etc.
Meant for backing up I insert A pin in mountains which now means I have NO trailer brakes when I need them most. I live and drive mountains all the time
I down shift going down those long 8% grades. Don’t want to be out of control or have vehicle brakes overheat. Many people don’t ever think to down shift auto tranny. Use it that is my the vehicle has those shift points
You engage manually. They are not for decoration.
I travel mountains a lot. I see vehicles out of control all the time going down in overdrive.
I removed My buddy bearings long ago. Only way to be sure the bearings
Are properly greased is do it by hand. And use the best bearing grease you can buy. Do not use marine bearing grease. It is waterproof but. Turns to oil at high temp and leaks out. Experience.
I too have steep drive situtation and lock brakes out. Put pin in is slow speed and truck stops trailer fine.
Saltwater is also not your trailers friend. If possible flush after using. On site if possible. In past years I pay $40 round trip I use the lift at Cap Santa Marine in Antacortes, WA. Worth every penny as trailer stays dry and they have parking $5 a night.
If I were not having to sell the boat this Spring, age and infirmities, I would replace with electric over hydraulic now. Just put Tne other unit on last year,
It does what is suppose to but it is a flat lander thin. By the by nothing against flatlanders I was one most of my life.
All I learned about trailers was the hard expensive way. We also have camper trailer with electric Brakes work fine but not for boat trailers.
Good luck and always be safe. Living in mts you see lots of bad stuff that was avoidable.
Baxter
I lived at 4400’ have to cross 10,000’ passes t get where I usually want to go.
Going down 8% grades s the issue.
Surge brakes are fine for flat landers and the adjustment on them is set by the factory with warnings don’t adjust.
I had to replace my surge unit Last year and did not head Gary’s “Daybreak” advice and buy elecTric over surge. Cost and extra battery. So I am coping with that error. I should have listened.
I have got the brakes so hot they smoke and the heat melts the Bering grease. Not good on highway,
By the way you can buY an inexpensive thermometer gun to check your wheel
Temp at each gas stop etc.
Meant for backing up I insert A pin in mountains which now means I have NO trailer brakes when I need them most. I live and drive mountains all the time
I down shift going down those long 8% grades. Don’t want to be out of control or have vehicle brakes overheat. Many people don’t ever think to down shift auto tranny. Use it that is my the vehicle has those shift points
You engage manually. They are not for decoration.
I travel mountains a lot. I see vehicles out of control all the time going down in overdrive.
I removed My buddy bearings long ago. Only way to be sure the bearings
Are properly greased is do it by hand. And use the best bearing grease you can buy. Do not use marine bearing grease. It is waterproof but. Turns to oil at high temp and leaks out. Experience.
I too have steep drive situtation and lock brakes out. Put pin in is slow speed and truck stops trailer fine.
Saltwater is also not your trailers friend. If possible flush after using. On site if possible. In past years I pay $40 round trip I use the lift at Cap Santa Marine in Antacortes, WA. Worth every penny as trailer stays dry and they have parking $5 a night.
If I were not having to sell the boat this Spring, age and infirmities, I would replace with electric over hydraulic now. Just put Tne other unit on last year,
It does what is suppose to but it is a flat lander thin. By the by nothing against flatlanders I was one most of my life.
All I learned about trailers was the hard expensive way. We also have camper trailer with electric Brakes work fine but not for boat trailers.
Good luck and always be safe. Living in mts you see lots of bad stuff that was avoidable.
Baxter
colbysmith
Active member
I’ve argued this before and continue to disagree! I’ve always had electric brakes on my boat trailers till this current one. While most my launching is in fresh water, I have launched in brackish and salt a few times. I’ve also towed over salted roads. My experience with electric exceeds the experience I’ve had with hydraulic! Maintain them, as you need to do with any brake and the simplicity will rarely fail you! Colby
It has been fun to read the various Reply’s . All are well thought out and
Show practical experience. Each have their own remedy that works and is a variation of the others. I sometimes get frustrated on Some sites where people have opinion that are not based on knowledge or experience. You have good material here to digest and draw you solution from.
Although I disagree with electric immersed in Water especially salt if you put the effort into maintaining and they feel safe for you I can not argue with that.
We pull 5-7000 miles a year with our 5.7 liter Tundra that also has great brakes. To get from Sheridan, WY to Antacortes.WA have many hills and passes to cross.
Wish I was looking at Friday Harbor today instead of snow on ground and the 11 deer eating in our yard. Love watching the deer four are bucks. Hunting
Season on but not in our backyard.
Show practical experience. Each have their own remedy that works and is a variation of the others. I sometimes get frustrated on Some sites where people have opinion that are not based on knowledge or experience. You have good material here to digest and draw you solution from.
Although I disagree with electric immersed in Water especially salt if you put the effort into maintaining and they feel safe for you I can not argue with that.
We pull 5-7000 miles a year with our 5.7 liter Tundra that also has great brakes. To get from Sheridan, WY to Antacortes.WA have many hills and passes to cross.
Wish I was looking at Friday Harbor today instead of snow on ground and the 11 deer eating in our yard. Love watching the deer four are bucks. Hunting
Season on but not in our backyard.
Thanks for all the great feedback! I'm going to pull the trigger and order a new surge actuator. I know there is overwhelming opinion favoring EOH over surge, but I think that as a Flatlander, it makes $ense for me to go with a $urge actuator.
Along with all the great info on this site, my lesson learned is to be more diligent with preventive maintenance with this component of the trailer.
Now I need to order the actuator because I am missing out on salmon.
Regards,
Vic
Along with all the great info on this site, my lesson learned is to be more diligent with preventive maintenance with this component of the trailer.
Now I need to order the actuator because I am missing out on salmon.
Regards,
Vic
I have been looking at this and other brake threads and (not being very mechanically inclined - :roll: at all :sad have some questions on the advantages of either brake system.
Surge -- I have that and a rough understanding of it and how it works. Don't like that they heat up on the down hill side, and we have plenty of that, and sometimes they are big. (Cabbage Hill, 6 miles of 6% down grade, is one I can think of. There are 7% and some 8% -- Like going over the Malahat down into Port Alberni for access to the west side of Vancouver Island, and I think that is over 5 miles. I-5 over Siskiyou has a steep slope of 6%, negotiating a height of 2,000 feet (610 m) in a short road length of 6 miles.)
Electric over Hydraulic -- I now have a truck that has an electric controller, so could go to that option if I thought it was warranted.
My Pacific trailer has the surge brakes on the rear axle. I have considered putting electric onto the front axle, and having two independent systems, (yes it is that redundancy thing showing again.) So I am curious about thoughts on that idea as well.
Harvey
SleepyC:moon
Surge -- I have that and a rough understanding of it and how it works. Don't like that they heat up on the down hill side, and we have plenty of that, and sometimes they are big. (Cabbage Hill, 6 miles of 6% down grade, is one I can think of. There are 7% and some 8% -- Like going over the Malahat down into Port Alberni for access to the west side of Vancouver Island, and I think that is over 5 miles. I-5 over Siskiyou has a steep slope of 6%, negotiating a height of 2,000 feet (610 m) in a short road length of 6 miles.)
Electric over Hydraulic -- I now have a truck that has an electric controller, so could go to that option if I thought it was warranted.
My Pacific trailer has the surge brakes on the rear axle. I have considered putting electric onto the front axle, and having two independent systems, (yes it is that redundancy thing showing again.) So I am curious about thoughts on that idea as well.
Harvey
SleepyC:moon
colbysmith
Active member
Harvey it’s much better to have full control of your trailer brakes from the cab be it electric brakes or electric over hydraulic. Electric over hydraulic, or EOH, uses a hydraulic brake system but puts an electric pump at the front of the trailer to pressurize the trailers hydraulic brakes. The pump, or EOH actuator, then gets electric signals or current from your trucks brake controller. The controller usually works on deceleration forces. Electric brakes do not use hydraulics but rather a electro-magnet connected to drum brakes that when energized causes the magnet to pull against the rotating drum to expand the brake shoes. Those that don’t think electricity works in water don’t really understand that the magnet is sealed and wire connections should be sealed as well. The disadvantage of electric brakes is that they are the drum system, which is inferior to disc. However disc run hotter and use hydraulics with a fluid that doesn’t like moisture. Any system that doesn’t involve Stainless will rust in salt and needs to be rinsed with fresh water! In any case with cab control of your trailer brakes you can input how much and when your trailer brakes are operating. Thus it is a much safer system. As for installing two different systems, I wouldn’t recommend it as you would need separate controllers and the additional wiring. Colby
As I understand Harvey's proposal, he will keep the surge brakes on the rear axle. If he has a long down grade, he will put the pin back in the surge coupler, to disable the surge brakes, and possible overheating of the disc/hub/grease. There is no controller for surge brakes, they only work by the truck braking (engine or brakes), and the forward pressure of the weight of the trailer allows the coupler to slide forward, putting pressure in the hydraulic cylinder, thus slowing the trailer.
The in cab controller is controlled by the truck's braking system, or can be controlled manually. For any load over 6800# in parts of Canada a system which has in cab braking control is mandatory. The electro magnetic brakes will be used by Harvey when descending grades. When he is back on the level, and not backing, the lock out pin on the surge blade coupler will be removed and the surge brakes will then be in play.
Can it be done? Certainly. The issue I see is the forgetting to put the pin in or pull the pin out. Maybe a red flag on the steering wheel as a reminder????
I understand that Colby has very limited use of the Electromagnetic brakes in salt water, where the backing plate, parts of the brake shoe articulating mechanism, and the shoes themselves can rust fairly quickly. To "flush" these systems, means a dedicated nozzle inside the backing plate which spray salt-a-way or fresh water in reasonable volumes on the. drums, backing plate and articulating surface. For most boaters it is far easier to just rinse off the open disc brakes. There is a reason that the electromagnetic system has never taken off with the hundred of thousands of salt water boaters... !!!
The in cab controller is controlled by the truck's braking system, or can be controlled manually. For any load over 6800# in parts of Canada a system which has in cab braking control is mandatory. The electro magnetic brakes will be used by Harvey when descending grades. When he is back on the level, and not backing, the lock out pin on the surge blade coupler will be removed and the surge brakes will then be in play.
Can it be done? Certainly. The issue I see is the forgetting to put the pin in or pull the pin out. Maybe a red flag on the steering wheel as a reminder????
I understand that Colby has very limited use of the Electromagnetic brakes in salt water, where the backing plate, parts of the brake shoe articulating mechanism, and the shoes themselves can rust fairly quickly. To "flush" these systems, means a dedicated nozzle inside the backing plate which spray salt-a-way or fresh water in reasonable volumes on the. drums, backing plate and articulating surface. For most boaters it is far easier to just rinse off the open disc brakes. There is a reason that the electromagnetic system has never taken off with the hundred of thousands of salt water boaters... !!!
When ordering a new actuator, be aware that they are specific to dual or single axle trailers. A dual actuator on single axle will apply too much force and visa versa.
Harvey,
I have been told that in washington and canada a trailer the size of a c dory must have brakes on all axles. Ours had them on only one axle originally, but we had them added to the second axle And that required a new actuator for dual axle brakes. I feel better now, but still worry a bit about big grades. Our truck is 2500hd with compression brakes, so I think I am going to do Dr Bob's lock out mod.
Harvey,
I have been told that in washington and canada a trailer the size of a c dory must have brakes on all axles. Ours had them on only one axle originally, but we had them added to the second axle And that required a new actuator for dual axle brakes. I feel better now, but still worry a bit about big grades. Our truck is 2500hd with compression brakes, so I think I am going to do Dr Bob's lock out mod.