Poor Handling

Oh Boy,

Sounds like I may be heading in the same directions as cislander. I just ordered a 25 Cruiser with a 200 hp Yamaha on the back. I spent alot of time in bass boats doing 60 or 70 mph so I will need to do some adjusting. But I am excited about it. I love the way the C Dory seems so salty and seaworthy. Also, I'll have my wife along alot of the time.

So let me get this straight...

To come up onto plane have the motor and trim tabs all the way down. Gradually bring them up as you get on plane.

For smooth water cruising the motor and trim tabs should be up, with right and left tab adjustments for leveling side to side. If you go above 20 knots or so and the bow is down it will start to knife thru the water like a fin and things can get squirrelly quick. As well, around corners the stern will tend to slide because it is so flat.

(Would a four blade prop help to give the stern more bite on corners?)

For big chop and swells bring the motor and trim tabs down (all the way down?) so the bow will plow thru the swells at say 10 or 12 knots. I'm assuming that means that waves are coming over the bow fairly often. Take your time, knowing that you are safe and seaworthy.

Thanks, this post is very helpful.

joefish
 
Just got back from sea trial a new 19 Angler with 90 HP Suzuki.

The boat was a comfortable, unless pushed too fast. Too much trim tab at speed shoves the bow down and creates a bow steer problem that can be a bit scary. So be cautious with trim adjustments. Small adjustments, and then wait for it to take affect.

The boat will never be as good a ride at high speed as your Trophy- it isn't designed to be. But it only needs 1/2 the horsepower your trophy needed to run at cruising speeds, which means using a whole lot less fuel.

It's all tradeoffs in boats this size. If running 25 knots in a chop is important, then no, the C-Dory isn't the boat for you. But slow down, and the ride is good, the handling predictable and the boat is solid.

It just takes some seat time to get used to the difference.
 
joefish,

These boats do not usually need much trim tab or engine trim in to get on plane. They also do not need a strong 'hole shot' to get on plane, rather they gently rise up till they are on plane and plane out at 10 to 12 knots without a lot of bow rise. Above 12 knots the boat slowly climbs out of the water and will carry the bow out of the water. Check out the photo albums to see the boats in action. As stated, too much trim tab down can cause the bow to dig in and bow steer.

On a new boat, I would start with the tabs and motor in the neutral (flat) trim position. Just drive away from the dock and gradually increase the speed to see what happens. Drive the boat at various speeds to learn what will happen with various engine and tab settings.

C-Dorys can operate at any throttle setting from idle to wide open (depending on sea conditions) and do not have a 'no go' speed zone like deep vee boats.

The hull form is designed to operate best below 30 knots or so and can become unstable above those speeds.

Oh, and congrats on your new boat!
 
Cislander

I came from a deep V Striper to the 22 cruiser, yes it takes time to get used to sitting lower in the water and can't fly through the chop quite as fast, but you know what, I will never go back. I launched out of Camano state park today with 4 on board, all water and fuel taks full heading to LaConner. The people I was with are all from deep V boats and were impressed with the ride in the chop and the high spped trawlers that were kicking up 3-4' wakes, again just slow down, with the wind and mixed seas today ran most of it at 22-26 mph without issues except the wind pushed me around today.
 
Hi and welcome,

I had the same experience as you and Robbi when I first got my 19. I scared the living daylights out of myself and my passenger and also wondered if I hadn't made a huge mistake. At speed I tried to adjust the trim tabs and had one switch stick causing that tab to go full up while the other was down and stood the boat on it's ear. It took some time and practise to get the feel of her. I've got the 75 Yamaha and it is enough to push the boat up to 27mph when lightly loaded. Three seasons later and many modifications and additions and I could now use that 90 of yours.

I no longer have any doubts about the boat and as yet encountered conditions that truely scared me. Knock on wood. Once you get to know her I think you will feel the same.
 
I to am still getting used to the way C-Dory handles. I also over trimmed at 25 mph and did a scary tight digging in corner. I am just getting used to the bow not trimming down as far as the deep and modified V boats I've had. My 16 deep vee double eagle couldn't stay on plane at less than 25 mph. This made it frustrating trying to get out in a chop.

My last boat 21 Arima modified V planed at 17 mph and was very disappointing to me at first. In the 2 years I owned her, I learned to love the way the Arima rode. Now with the C-Dory I am at the bottom of the learning curve again, but without the anxiety of thinking I made the wrong decision.

As I age I like the idea of slowing down. Enjoying the moment. Turning off the cell phone. Slowing down. Living life like the old days when we had time for something other than work like enjoying nature and the company of friends. C-Dory is a lifestyle that I yearn for. Like sailing with Dad as a child. Or hiking up a mountain with my wife and kids. Doing what is important. C-Brats are my kind of people.

I encourage you to give it a season, accept that you have to learn a new boat, you may learn to like it. If you still don't like the ride then put it up for sale and move on, with no regrets.

Enjoy!

Stefan 8)
 
I had a trophy before the angler.

What I did not like about the trophy.

At slow trolling speeds the trophy wanders with every swell, every movement of passengers it wanted to do a turn. It was important to stay at the helm.

In high wind conditions the trophy rode really rough going into it. To maintain control you had to drop off a plane and I know that deep v's are not very comfortable at sub planning speeds heading into white caps. The ride is very rough. And your sucking gas trying to push the boat.

Now the angler I slow down going into it and keep the hull in the water. Pretty much still on a plane. Be careful going over the top onto a bottomless back as you can slap pretty hard, but if you watch the water conditions you can adjust for these last minute drops and still be on a plane. Both boats do well going with the swell and you can hit higher speeds in the trophy, but do you really want to go that fast in the ocean. The trophy is not a go fast ocean boat and I would not rely on the construction of the boat to hold up in racing conditions.

For whatever reason my trophy was an unreliable trailer queen. It did not mater how much time I worked on it on the trailer I had problems. Electrical system, fuel system, out drive problems, trailer problems and seeing it go away after loosing 3/4's of what I had in it made my day.

I doubt I will ever loose 3/4's of what I have in my angler even if I own it 40 years. So far my angler has always been ready to go. I have to maintain it and fix little problems but I have never had to stay home because my boat was having problems. I like working on boats. I just finished an on board battery charger project. All I will have to do to maintain my three $300 batteries is plug in the charger and all three batteries will be charged at the same time.

No one ever complemented on what a nice trophy. I keep it clean but it was just another trophy. C dory gets compliments and loving I want to own it looks every time I launch. That is not why I bought the boat, but it nice to know that others think I made the right choice.

My c dory is perfect for how I use it. I have used it to go offshore 25 miles for tuna, fished in near shore waters for bottom fish and salmon. I am not into speed while on the ocean, just a safe fun filled day. I doubt if I will ever take it to a lake where higher speeds for water sports would be needed. My boat fits most of my needs and is a keeper.
 
joefish":5de2l8dj said:
Oh Boy,

Sounds like I may be heading in the same directions as cislander. I just ordered a 25 Cruiser with a 200 hp Yamaha on the back. I spent alot of time in bass boats doing 60 or 70 mph so I will need to do some adjusting. But I am excited about it. I love the way the C Dory seems so salty and seaworthy. Also, I'll have my wife along alot of the time.

So let me get this straight...

To come up onto plane have the motor and trim tabs all the way down. Gradually bring them up as you get on plane.

For smooth water cruising the motor and trim tabs should be up, with right and left tab adjustments for leveling side to side. If you go above 20 knots or so and the bow is down it will start to knife thru the water like a fin and things can get squirrelly quick. As well, around corners the stern will tend to slide because it is so flat.

(Would a four blade prop help to give the stern more bite on corners?)

For big chop and swells bring the motor and trim tabs down (all the way down?) so the bow will plow thru the swells at say 10 or 12 knots. I'm assuming that means that waves are coming over the bow fairly often. Take your time, knowing that you are safe and seaworthy.

Thanks, this post is very helpful.

joefish
Click to expand...

joefish,

I think you have the general idea. You really have to experiment with your boat on the water to get the feel for it. We have the Permatrim on our boat and it really helps to get the bow down. I like to use it for that purpose much better than using trim tabs. I only use the tt's for lateral adjustment and ballast.

The only part of your post which may not pertain is the part about taking waves over the bow. Actually, very little water comes over the bow even when trimmed all the way down. You're right, at 10-12 knots you want to keep the bow down through the chop to keep any pounding to a mininum. Thats where the Permatrim helps out. Any faster and the hull really starts pounding so you naturally keep it slow but still planing.

But these hulls don't knife through wakes and chop like deep V's. These seaworthy little modified dory hulls ride over waves, much like a cork bobbing along. In very confused seas with high wind waves close together, you just slow way down and go up and over the waves. It's no fun and you're on the throttle the whole time but your C-Dory will make it through no problem.

As for going fast, fast in most C-Dorys are around 26-27 knots, 30 mph. When you do go that speed, it's usually in flat calm water and you would be trimmed up, not down. Trimming all the way down, the bow will definitely start to grab and the ride gets squirrely. With C-Dancer, we rarely go more than 22 knots and of course never in rough seas.

Like others have said, if you're set on going places fast, like 30-50 mph, this boat is definitely not for you. But if you slow down and appreciate what it does do, you'll love it.
 
When I still had my 22' Classic, on a run from Halibut Cove back to the Homer Spit, I could easily outpace the big fancy deep V's in the afternoon wind chop. I did this many times over the years. The V owners always looked in disbelief as we motored on by them in the funny looking flat bottom boat. Then when in behind the spit they put the hammer down to blast past me at 20 gals./hr. or even with me as we went into the harbor .
My present CD is a semi V, does rough water real well but also burns 8.5 gph at cruise. That is taking me some time to get used to. I love this boat but that fuel consumption thing is always nagging in the back of my mind.
 
I have just completed navigating the California coast, from San Francisco to Marina del Rey, including Point Conception, and a stretch of small craft advisory for the first 60nm south of SF, in my 26 Venture(CC).

Not only do these boats handle reliably, they handle very consistently, taking much of the guesswork out of how the boat will react to the next wave, and the one after that...

I mostly cruise with the engine tilt somewhere in the middle, keeping the boat at the angle I want, and pretty much use the trim tabs to level the boat if the load is uneven, or to bring the nose down and smooth out chop. One of the advantages of these boats is that by adjusting the trim tabs you can convert the boat from contacting the water with a v, or a flat hull, as conditions merit. They also handle well both on plane and at displacement speeds so when the going gets rough you can keep going at a slower speed, rather then have to turn back.

Several years ago there was a thread here about whether one of these boats could make it to Catalina if the waves were such and such. The conclusion at the time was that the boat would make it OK, but the person wouldn't. My experience is that this is true.

Anyway, hope you enjoy your new boat and become a regular member of this online community, a virtual yacht club.

Best Wishes,
David
 
David,

Please clarify. Are you saying that once again the boat could have made it to Catalina in high seas but you weren't willing to risk it? Or are you saying that we have a C-Brat with the cahones to match our little boat that could -- all the way to Catalina Island? :shock: :D

joefish[/quote]
 
Thanks for all the help on here. I took the 19 out for a 14 mile run yesterday with 4 grown up people on board and the handling was a lot better than I expected (must be getting to know the boat better). One thing I noticed during our run is that the 90 Honda seems to be tilted out away from the transom to far, and it did cavitate a couple of times at higher RPM's. I was wondering if you can set the motor closer in, and not have to be out of the water to do it? The tilt on the throttle control stops the motor (in the full "down mode") at a pretty extreme angle out form the hull (IMO).
Also one last thing - the previous owner lived at Lake Tahoe and had changed the prop out to accomodate the higher elevation (he said). Should I try the old prop that came with the motor? Will that help to resolve the cavitation prob? Or is it caused by the "Permatrim" or the tilt angle? I suspect the tilt angle more than the prop. Either way I would like some GOOD adviice by someone who knows all this stuff. My experience has been mostly with the in-board boats the last 5 yrs.
Thanks C-Brats for freely sharing your smarts on the site. You people are the best.
:smiled
 
I had the same problem in my 22-foot Classic. Scary handling at speed in rough conditions, especially with a following swell coming in from fishing. Added Bennet trim tabs, and she became a new boat. Totally predictable because I could control the pitch of the nose and get just the right angle so she wouldn't "dig" and suddenly grab a rail at speed. I highly recommend this upgrade to improve the C-Dory's handling in the ocean and rough water. After the trib tabs, I came to love the boat's handling, as long as I stayed in the 15-20 MPH range, which is all she can comfortably do, even with a 115 FICHT.
 
My first post to you stated that these b0ats with permitrim are very sensitive to motor trim. I have the same cavitation and have not checked the distance and angle you mentioned but have found that I trim up until I get the first indication of cavitation and then trim down slightly and it is in a great handling mode. I could not ask for better after the first scare with trim down and trying to plane. Continue to play with positions and you will love it. Sorry can't help on the prop since I have never changed one.
Ron
 
Bob and all that have posted to "Poor Handling",
Tee Ten is set up to preform to it's max. The boat is balanced very well. The Honda 90 might be considered by some to be too much engine. I disagree. Check out the weight difference between the Honda 90 and the Honda 75 and you discover very little difference if any.
At 6500 ft elevation the larger prop would allow the rpm's to about 3800-4200 and over the water speed to 15-18. I used the prop from the 75 hp Honda and raised the rpm's to 5500-5800 and the speed over the water to 28-30. I found the performance at sea level to be in the same ball park so I stayed with the smaller prop size.
The engine is mounted perfectly. I have seen engines on C-Dory's mounted in correctly but this is not the case with Teen Ten.
I've cruised with many C-Brats at Lake Powell, Catalina Isl. San Francisco Bay Cruise, Santa Barbara Sea Food Fest and at the Friday Harbor CBG. I put more than 200 hrs. on Tee Ten and have never had the problems Bob is describing with the handling of Tee Ten.
I did have problems trying to understand the proper position for the trim tabs and ended up leaving the tabs at neutral and using only the Permatrim. Therefore, I'm wondering if the Tabs are working properly since Bob is so into using trim tabs. If there is a problem electrical or hydraulic, I will pay for the repair.
In all, Tee Ten is a really solid 19' C-Dory. I spent my working career with a vision of someday owning and enjoying this boat. I sold it because I made a deal with my wife which I have explained on other posts.
I'm wishing Bob the best of luck with learning the truly remarkable performance of this C-Dory.

:thup :thup :thup :thup
 
cislander":2z03pe6w said:
. I was wondering if you can set the motor closer in, and not have to be out of the water to do it? The tilt on the throttle control stops the motor (in the full "down mode") at a pretty extreme angle out form the hull (IMO).

:smiled
Click to expand...

Is the adjusting rod in the stern bracket placed in it's lowest position?
 
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