Politics Again

Wandering Sagebrush

Free Range Human
Actually, it is not a political topic, but rather one that comports nicely with the one basic rule on CBrats, which is of course "Just Be Nice"

The civility project ( http://www.civilityproject.org/ ) was on the news this morning. I was impressed that people from opposite ends of the political spectrum would come together and try to bring some basic common sense to the way we disagree with one another.
 
Historically, each generation thinks the next generation coming up is less civil, less productive, and less respectful. I have concerns that we are now seeing the children of the television/video/internet eras come of age. Observations in just the past few weeks while visiting our daughter in Phoenix:

* People meet in restaurants and immediately start texting someone rather than have conversation with others at the table.

* People come into a movie theater, plop down, and put their feet up on the seats in front of them. And talk through the whole movie.

* I hold doors for people - it's how I was raised. I don't expect a tip, but a "thank you" would be nice. I'm speaking of when you walk into a store or restaurant and there is someone right behind you. Less than half the time does anyone acknowledge the courtesy. And more and more often, others right in front of you just let the door go in your face.

* In grocery stores or Wal-Mart type stores where shopping carts are prevalent, people block aisles with carts or don't look as they come out of an aisle. Not as tragic as a traffic accident, but just an example of people being oblivious to others around them.

* We've driven a lot of miles since we retired. Well, we drove a lot of miles before we retired... but, it seems that people are increasingly aggressive in their driving. Prior to 5 years ago, I don't remember being passed on the right (on the shoulder!), or having people cut across 4 lanes of traffic to get in front of you and make the exit ramp.

* Kids are allowed to run, roam, and scream in stores, restaurants... well, most public places. They pull stuff off shelves in stores and let things lay - and the parents don't tell them no or pick up the stuff.

Kids who are allowed to roam/scream/bother others with no parental guidance grow up to be adults who think they are entitled to do the same things. I think kids should be allowed to be kids... and there are playgrounds for running and screaming. But not in the middle of a store or a restaurant. Instead of smoking and non-smoking areas, I think there should be "screaming and non-screaming areas." I've come to appreciate the quiet in RV parks and communities that are 55+.

I don't think I've become an old grouch or even a curmudgeon... but I miss the civility of the past. We used to have a sign in our studio that read: "Well-behaved children are welcome here. Parents, please control your children." We had a lot of expensive portraits and art prints, not to mention equipment, accessible for our clients. Sample albums could easily have $1,000 worth of images in them... "Please handle that carefully, or Mommy will be buying that," generally brought about more careful handling (or at least a parental watchful eye). :wink:

In the age of videos in the home, internet, and endless texting, there is less personal interaction between people. Kids don't "date" like we used to, they don't learn social skills... or even intelligent conversation. "She goes..." instead of "she said", "Me and her" instead of "She and I" (just another example of people putting themselves first). People who wouldn't think of standing up in the corner pub and screaming their political views or belittling someone have no problem doing just that on an internet forum, with the anonymity provided by the keyboard and computer screen.

When you see life "portrayed" on TV (movies, internet, video games, etc) where civility isn't important, and are exposed to that over and over during your formative years, it's easy to believe that that's the way it should be.

Yeah, I miss civility. I find myself avoiding crowds or situations where you just know there will be incivility. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. It used to be that one needed manners and civility to date (one of the best incentives), but that seems to be less important now.

Our daughter (a teacher, working with adolescents) used to think we were "strict" when she was growing up. She now thanks us for the guidance we gave her and tries to help her kids not just learn the required stuff, but to become better people, able to fit in and excel. She does not put up with incivility in the classroom. Visiting their school is a real breath of fresh air compared to walking through a mall.

Whew! I sure hope that didn't come off as a rant or anything remotely political. I like people; engaging conversation is a delight. It doesn't have to be with someone who mirrors my views. Civility may not be prevalent, but it is alive. Imagine how good it could be with a bit of nurturing.

Best wishes for a great new year,
Jim B.
 
JamesTXSD":3v5jhoh1 said:
Historically, each generation thinks the next generation coming up is less civil, less productive, and less respectful. <stuff clipped>

I've come to appreciate the quiet in RV parks and communities that are 55+.

I don't think I've become an old grouch or even a curmudgeon... <more stuff clipped>
Jim B.

And that crazy music the kids play these days with all their dancin' and gyratin' :twisted: No, you don't seem like an old grouch at all...... :wink:

On the other hand I agree with every one of your points above with the possible exception of 55+ communities. Maybe we're both becoming old grouches.
 
Jim-

Very well thought out and written!

I couldn't agree with you more!

And I'm sure most of our C-Brat family does too.

The great question is how to retain what civility is left and promote growth towards it.

I think part of the problem results from the generations that followed the baby-boomers feeling that they are being short-changed in their generation's material wealth potential, and their resultant "oh, what the hell" attitudes about life in general, but not all. And a lot lies in the electronic/communications revolution, too. Gut-level exchanges are the norm, and thoughtful, courteous conversations are increasingly less common.

But the real problem is how to turn the tide of rudeness, to which the only simple answer is thoughtful personal behavior, especially in the familial context.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I agree too, with the exception of the 55+ communities. Why the community issue you ask? Because I appreciate the civility and quiet now and am still about a decade away from 55.

Example of the obliviousness you describe. A colleague of mine and I had a working lunch about 3 weeks ago. We are two men, in suits and ties, speaking quietly about business, and we are the only ones in the restaurant as it is early (11:10). In walk two young mothers, in sweaty (and smelly) clothes from the gym, with 3 small children in tow. Now they have the whole place to sit, but choose to sit right behind us with their kids crying and shaking their sippy cups and whining they don't like the food. (OK, it is just a deli, but still..) I am sure they didn't mean to harass us, they were simply oblivious to their environment and the needs of others in the establishment.
 
Yes Jim, my thoughts exactly!!! I've been saying quite a bit lately that I'm starting to feel like an old fogie because I'm noticing the exact same thing. I call it lack of manners exhibited by the younger generation, most noticable in the 24 and under set.

My biggest pet peeves:

Cell phones everywhere with no regard to others around you. Talking in lines at stores. Talking in restaurants. GGRRRR :amgry

What's up with texting, especially while driving? I asked my late 20's daughter last year while she was texting, "So why can't you just speak to him? Since you're texting back and forth, couldn't you also be talking?"

Driving--Does anybody realize up here in Washington State that you're supposed to stop at a red light before turning. It's as if most young people don't realize you need to stop, they just keep driving right through the red light to turn.

Instant Gratification Technology--One word, TWITTER. Do I really care what you're doing at this very minute in a 140 character text?

Ok, I'll get off my old fogie soapbox and resume working... :wink

Peter
 
I also lament the changes in written communications bought on with this same set of cultural changes, such as not using capital letters, no punctuation, too many acronyms, and shorthand style shortcuts, etc.

"Old Farts Have More Class"

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
God, I love a good political discussion! But, being older than most here, and keeping it nautical, I am increasingly content to go with the river. None of it bothers me, the noisy kids, the personal water craft, the droaning generators. You can be on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but, if you have the prettiest C-Dory on the water I'll still happily tell you it's beautiful, and still consider you a friend. As Thorton Wilder said, "My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate. ."

MartyP
 
But you know what's funny - this is in the That's Life forum so it doesn't show up on the front page list, where the top topic is currently "Sunset in the PNW". Then, clicking the new posts link gets you a bunch of lamenting old ...well, call us whatever.
 
I agree with what others have said.

I think the problem is lack of consequence. I even see behaviors in the workplace (white collar corporate or academic environments) where I am amazed a person is allowed to finish the day let alone keep their job.

I barely go to movie theaters these days due to kids talking, texting, etc. through the entire movie. There should be "safety" guards that escort people to the door when they don't keep their mouth shut during a movie. It's one thing to lean over and whisper, it's another to have a full conversation or to maintain a text chat.

Road rage incidents are infamous in Boston. People pull over and duke it out, stab it out, or shoot it out. I have to admit I have had my moments. This past year a guy did not like my merge, drove in the shoulder to get past me, then slammed on his brakes to a complete stop on I-93 in the fast lane. He got out of his car and I was so pissed I did the same. We exchanged some not so pleasant words but returned to our cars. In retrospect it was of course stupid for me to do that, I should have simply drove around his car and continued on my way. This scenario 'came to me' but I know better than to indulge in something that might feel good for 10 minutes but could result in much worse. The other guy could have 'life rage' and pull out a gun and it's all over.

We see the lack of civility, particularly relating to political discussions, where politicians and people in the media are actually applauded for their actions (by their supporters of course). Here again - no consequences and in many cases rewards for this behavior.

Hopefully it can turn around.
 
First off, I think I'm maybe on the younger side of the crowd here (48 yrs young :wink: ) but I'd have to say I agree with Jim's posting re: civility, decency, manners, discipline etc.

Now add to that my chosen career and you can imagine the lack of respect I see on a daily basis. Lack of respect for older people, vulnerable people, "authority", teachers, parents, spouses....I could go on. It's amazing. I've seen teenagers call their mothers all sorts of foul terms, with ME standing there. I once told a kid (14 yrs old) the famous Bill Cosby line "Your mother brought you into this world...but I will take you out"; this after he called his mom a "F'ing C-word"! Guess what he did? He filed a complaint w/ my dept. :roll: Like I said: no respect.

It's culturally wide; there is no ONE cause, but between TV, the internet, texting, rap music, sex in the media, "reality shows", what passes for "entertainment" in general etc it's all added up. Then you have people that feel entitled to anything and every thing without having to work for it and it all spells bad. My former Sgt's 15 yr old dauther got upset because she didn't get a brand new Mercedes Benz for her 16th b-day! :? Amazing...

I feel better now.
 
OK, one more thing most of us can relate to...

We had to stop at Wal-Mart today to pick up a few grocery items. There was a shopping cart in a parking site that I took to the cart corral on our way into the store. The cart corral was only 3 sites down from where we parked. When we got back, there was another cart up against the front of the vehicle. :amgry

This may be a regional thing (and I'm not pointing fingers) - it seems to be more prevalent in the south. It was a rarity when we lived in the Black Hills, but happens all the time in south Texas. And here in Arizona. And when we were in Florida.

I once said to a store manager, "Why don't you charge a quarter when people check out a cart, and give them their quarter back when the cart is returned to the cart corral?" (I've seen this done at some stores since this discussion, and all the big airports have luggage carts that give you a little something back at the corral.) The guy said to me, "People wouldn't shop here if they had to PAY to use the carts."

"They would get their money back when they put them away. There is no PAYING! Simply a deposit that is refunded when the cart is properly put away. Just like the deposit on soda bottles in some states; people still buy soda. And think of the POSITIVE marketing: no more dinged vehicles because some dumas leaves a cart where it doesn't belong. It's a certainty that some enterprising soul will gather up carts as quick as they can to get the return deposits when someone decides it isn't worth their time (or consideration) to be civilized and return the cart. Win/Win. No down side."

Yeah, there are still cars getting dinged in that lot. :disgust

Plus, I'm upset I didn't get a new Mercedes for my 56th birthday this year. And I didn't even want a new Mercedes. But, come on, if a 16 year old thinks she deserves it, I MUST deserve one. :twisted: Entitlement? Don't get me started!

PS - You aren't that far on the younger side, Mark. Damn whippersnappers!

Geeze, I gotta get back to the water soon.
 
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