Permatrim Hydrofoils

New to C-Brats and purchased our 98' cruiser one week ago.

Was prepared to purchase Bennett 120's this week until reading through this forum. I'm so impressed by everyone's valuable comments which brings me to ask the following question -

As a starting point would it be best to start with a Perma-trim or trim tabs. From comments I see how having both may provide best all around control but which would yield the greatest initial benefit if only one device were installed.

All comments are appreciated.

Ron
 
ronniner":27pcfptk said:
New to C-Brats and purchased our 98' cruiser one week ago.

Was prepared to purchase Bennett 120's this week until reading through this forum. I'm so impressed by everyone's valuable comments which brings me to ask the following question -

As a starting point would it be best to start with a Perma-trim or trim tabs. From comments I see how having both may provide best all around control but which would yield the greatest initial benefit if only one device were installed.

All comments are appreciated.

Ron
Click to expand...

Ron-

The trim tabs give you both fore and aft and lateral trim as well.

The hydrofoil only offers fore-aft trim.*

The trim tabs will set you back about $500-$600, the Permatrim about $100.

If you can only have one, and price is not an issue, the choice would be for the trim tabs because of their greater utility.

If $ is a real consideration, I'd get the permatrim first, and see if I then needed the tabs.

If you don't carry a lot of weight, don't operate in a lot of chop, and can shift ballast around, the Permatrim may be all you need.

How far out of lateral trim does your boat get now?
 
If you have twins, you can get lateral trim as well as fore and aft. just trim one motor different then the other to fix whatever needs it.
The Permatrims will allow you to bring the bow up because of their location, and the ability for water to flow around them. When the Trim Tabs reach the level that puts them behind the transom(up) instead of in the water flow, they lose alot of their value.
Another plus is that as long as the trim works on the motor(s) the Permatrim works.
 
I would say that the trim tab would be the best addition to the CD 22. My experience with the Permitrims on the Tom Cat, is that they are not in the water flow--they are on top. The Tom Cat 255 runs with the cavitation plate just at the water's edge, and the permitrims are on top of this.

Dolfins have a more hyrodynamic shape, and I have used them extensively on boats where the cavitation plate is under the water.
 
Thanks to all for your comments.

Running a single 90 Honda with 9.9 kicker on starboard side.

Without passengers I'm probably 5-7 degrees off lateral level although I don't have a bubble degree gauge yet but will very soon.

So - I believe trim tabs will be the first choice and heading in that direction

Thanks again for taking the time to respond,

Ron :thup
 
Ok I took a shot at fabbing my own Permatrim. It cost me 20.00 in materials including stainless bolts. Cut it out with my crappy jig saw and used the high school sheet metal bender for the bends. Can't wait to try it out. Thanks for the idea oldgrowth. I was just getting ready to order one and I saw your pics. I have to say it didn't even occur to me to make one myself. If any one is interested I will post the dimensions for a 75/90 Yamaha in my photo album later.

DSC_0036.sized.jpg
 
catdogcat – they are simple to make, and mine preforms beautifully.

I assume you made you’re a little larger than mine. After you test it and it works, it would be nice to post a photo of it with the deminisions. If someone else wants to make one, they will have something to go by.

When you figure the cost plus shipping of the permatrim, you saved about $100 and get a lot of enjoyment out of making your own boat equipment.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Beautiful job catdogcat! It looks just like the real thing. I was amazed how much bigger the Permatrim for the Suzuki 90 was compared to the Permatrim for the Suzuki 70. I guess they are proportionate to the size of the engine. You'll notice the difference immediately when trimming your motor. The slightest adjustment gets instant response. As I said before, I love Permatrims.

Peter
 
Thanks for the compliments. I'm going to post the dimensions as soon as I get my hands on a decent drawing program. I'm going to try to test it out this weekend on a local lake.
 
Back in Feb of 2007 I bought a "Permatrim" from Shipyard Island Marina, Inc. for my 19ft 2004 C-Dory Angler; equipped with a Honda BF90. I spent hours researching a solution on this web-site and others, on how to correct some handling (porposing) problems I was having. Please keep in mind, I knew when I bought this boat, it was not-nor-never was designed to be a "speed-boat" by far, but I ave had allot of boating experience in my years, and I knew it could operate safely at a much high speed then C-Dory claimed it would.

-As I promised, I would give all you some feedback on the results after installing this product to inform you if it helped correct the situation I was experiencing.

-My feedback to you is as follows; The Permatrim product I installed on my boat, not only corrected the awkward rear slide action in less than ideal water situations, it has changed the handle on the vessel completely. I could swear I would never have known it was the same boat. I still do not fully understand how something so simple in design and size could make such a huge difference. I have been a boat owner/operator for 25 plus years, have owned several different boat types, never have I made such a simple upgrade that would make such a huge difference. The installation instructions provided (.pdf format) by Shipyard Island Marina, Inc. were spot-on, easy to read and easy to do. Total install time was about 15 minutes. A special Thank you to Mr. Andrew J. Munao, Jr. (Shipyard Island Marina, Inc.) for his help and advice on the entire subject.

-The boat now handles like it is supposed to, it planes quickly and responds to steering like a sports car. I even got into some very nasty water conditions (4-5 ft swells, cross wind and confused current), these conditions occur at times in Prince William Sound Alaska around heavy island structure. In the past, before the Permatrim, I would have to slow roll the boat down to about 10 kts, and lumber through it for safety and comfort. With the Permatrim installed, the boat tracked true and safe, and I was able to operate at a safe speed of 20-22 kts.

-One other note to pass along, the boat came equipped with two Bennet Hyd Trim Tabs, before the Permatrim was installed, I had to keep them in the FULL down position at all times, now I can run them in a neutral position and use them for their intended purpose.

-It is worth twice the price I paid. Please use this testament to any other C-Dory customers, that this product will improve their boat handling, even if they don't have a real problem to speak of.

- One Last note: prior to the Permatrim I ran a 3-Blade; 15 pitch prop, I kept a 3-Blade 17 pitch prop as a spare. The Permatrim's new balance allowed almost a 300 RPM gain on the top end with the 15 pitch prop. I swapped over to a 4-blade; 15 pitch prop and now I tach-out 5900/6100 RPM (WOT) which gave me a 7 knot gain on the top end (that’s a BIG gain in this little boat). Last weekend I bought a 17 pitch-4 Blade prop to tone it down a bit, I can't wait to try it out. I am overly pleased with this product. If you have any other questions about this product I can try to answer, please contact me. www.arcticfusion.com
 
Wow, why don't you tell us how you really feel about the Permatrims? :lol: No, seriously, that is great news. Thanks for sharing.

Warren
 
Darin (DC45)-

That's a great report and recommendation!

The dramatic difference experienced on the CD-19 is probably greater than that of any other of the C-Dorys.

I believe that is because the 19 is basically a CD-22 with three feet cut off the back of the hull. As such, it is short of the optimum design length for a boat of that width, weight, and hull configuration.

The 19 was originally not equipped with trim tabs, and experienced a lot of handling problems, particularly porporsing, attributable to the short hull.

The factory then added trim tabs as standard equipment to help offset the problem, which helped quite a bit, but as you've seen, was still not ideal.

I believe the Permatrim hydrofoil adds planing surface to the rear of the boat and corrects much of the "shortcomings" of the hull. In effect, it lengthens the hull back towards the stable length.

Moreover, it is a dramtic imporvement because it can be trimmed with the motor, increasing it's relative effectiveness greatly.

Lastly, with the downturned out flaps, the Permatrim also adds tracking ability to the boat that was also missing in the shortened form.

Just my theory on the observations of many others.

Joe.
 
I'd like to echo the comments above. I installed the permatrim this spring, which was an easy job, and have had the boat out a few times in different conditions so far. The biggest difference was the additional bow down attitude that can be achieved with just engine trim. The difference is about 5-7 knots in chop without pounding. It also helps in tracking, and with the kicker running, the main engine (Yamaha F80), acts like a rudder and the boat can be steered from inside in relatively calm conditions without the connector bar.

So far, a no brainer good decision. I would not have known about the Trimtab but for this site. Thanks again, C-Brats everywhere. :thup
 
CTYankee":2lbs85wp said:
I'd like to echo the comments above. I installed the permatrim this spring, which was an easy job, and have had the boat out a few times in different conditions so far. The biggest difference was the additional bow down attitude that can be achieved with just engine trim. The difference is about 5-7 knots in chop without pounding. It also helps in tracking, and with the kicker running, the main engine (Yamaha F80), acts like a rudder and the boat can be steered from inside in relatively calm conditions without the connector bar.

So far, a no brainer good decision. I would not have known about the Trimtab but for this site. Thanks again, C-Brats everywhere. :thup
Click to expand...

Do you have trim tabs? If so, did you run with them largely down? And now?

I run with the tabs down all the way, except if I need to level the boat. Keeping
the boat level also helps it cut through the water. So, generally, at least one
tab is all the way down.

Mike
 
Lori Ann":3hznojg2 said:
Wow, why don't you tell us how you really feel about the Permatrims? :lol: No, seriously, that is great news. Thanks for sharing.

Warren
Click to expand...

Warren,
Sorry if that was too much information? :smileo I am just so very excited that I corrected a condition that was soooooo bothering me. I LOVE the C-DORY Boats so much, the look, the build, the attitude of the owners, and the platform it provides for bringing in HUGE Halibut and Salmon. When I could finally afford one, I was so excited to finally own a C-Dory! (the CD22 just a little out of my price range). But then after operating the 19ft Angler for two seasons, I was oh so disappointed in the handling problems it was giving me :sad
After much reading and consulting other expert boaters and C-Dory owners, the Permatrim seemed to be my best chance to make the boat handle correctly (I had my fingers crossed). After discovering the results of the product, I just became overly excited, and just had to spread the news to anyone who’d listen! Sorry I wrote a book, and sounded like the owner of the “Permatrim” company. :smilep
BTW, I have zero stake in that company what-so-ever, nor do I get a penny for bragging about it!
 
Sea Wolf":383ddpew said:
Darin (DC45)-
The dramatic difference experienced on the CD-19 is probably greater than that of any other of the C-Dorys.
I believe that is because the 19 is basically a CD-22 with three feet cut off the back of the hull. As such, it is short of the optimum design length for a boat of that width, weight, and hull configuration.
The 19 was originally not equipped with trim tabs, and experienced a lot of handling problems, particularly porporsing, attributable to the short hull.
The factory then added trim tabs as standard equipment to help offset the problem, which helped quite a bit, but as you've seen, was still not ideal.
I believe the Permatrim hydrofoil adds planing surface to the rear of the boat and corrects much of the "shortcomings" of the hull. In effect, it lengthens the hull back towards the stable length.
Moreover, it is a dramtic imporvement because it can be trimmed with the motor, increasing it's relative effectiveness greatly.
Lastly, with the downturned out flaps, the Permatrim also adds tracking ability to the boat that was also missing in the shortened form.
Just my theory on the observations of many others.

Joe.
Click to expand...


Joe,
Everything you said is EXACTLY what I discovered in my hours of research. If I could of just sat down and talked to you for about 30 minutes I could of saved months of time! Do you have anymore words of wisdom concerning the 19ft Angler? Possible problems I just have not found yet? :thup
 
Ya know, this is interesting. Maybe Permatrims would also improve CD25's? I have my trim tabs down about 50% most of the time, added more trim surface 'farther astern' should make trimming better and more efficient -- right?

Hmmmm. :?
 
Mike,

No I do not have Trim Tabs. I have heard pro and cons about them, and have a C-Brat buddy who has them and they do a great job for him. Unfortunately, they also impede his kicker in the down position, and that has made it difficult for him to operate the kicker without cavitating. He may have to get a Jack Plate or extender. My kicker doesn't have that problem and I can get away with a 15" long shaft. I trim my C-Dory by moving coolers and supplies and with fluid management. I just didn't want the extra systems that the trim tabs required, and the Permatrim solved the problem. Quick and Easy!

Dun
 
DC45":3epqwv0p said:
Sea Wolf":3epqwv0p said:
Darin (DC45)-
The dramatic difference experienced on the CD-19 is probably greater than that of any other of the C-Dorys.
I believe that is because the 19 is basically a CD-22 with three feet cut off the back of the hull. As such, it is short of the optimum design length for a boat of that width, weight, and hull configuration.
The 19 was originally not equipped with trim tabs, and experienced a lot of handling problems, particularly porporsing, attributable to the short hull.
The factory then added trim tabs as standard equipment to help offset the problem, which helped quite a bit, but as you've seen, was still not ideal.
I believe the Permatrim hydrofoil adds planing surface to the rear of the boat and corrects much of the "shortcomings" of the hull. In effect, it lengthens the hull back towards the stable length.
Moreover, it is a dramtic imporvement because it can be trimmed with the motor, increasing it's relative effectiveness greatly.
Lastly, with the downturned out flaps, the Permatrim also adds tracking ability to the boat that was also missing in the shortened form.
Just my theory on the observations of many others.

Joe.
Click to expand...


Joe,
Everything you said is EXACTLY what I discovered in my hours of research. If I could of just sat down and talked to you for about 30 minutes I could of saved months of time! Do you have anymore words of wisdom concerning the 19ft Angler? Possible problems I just have not found yet? :thup
Click to expand...

Darin (DC45)

Thanks for the compliments!

However, I'm no expert on the CD-19, just a casual student of the effects of hydrofoils, etc.

The real expert on the pros and cons of the CD-19 is Bill (DaNag)! He owned the very first one out of the mold and was instrumental on the early developments with the boat, including the addition of trim tabs, and later the Permatrim foil.

He also moved up to a CD-22 after abut a year or two with the 19.

In my opinion, the 19 is a great fishing boat and day cruiser, but for many the addition of the bulkhead and additional amenities make the 22 a better choice for most couples and overnight cruising.

Good Luck with your quest!

Joe. :teeth
 
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