People are dumb....

If you have an adventurous spirit that is drawn to challenges of the mind & body & decide to pursue them, then the inherent risk that comes with the doing must be accepted. You can read endlessly about others who do this & about their preparation for it & a lot can be learned, but how you will react to a bad situation can only be learned by experiencing it & that to me means the outer envelope must be pushed. From studying about others who have accomplished or failed at what you would like to achieve, one can learn about the risk involved & be better prepared, but no matter how prepared or knowledgeable one has become, equipment you depend on can fail or sickness/injury or even just plain bad luck occur. Besides the challenge for many like me are strictly personnel, not a race to be won against other individuals & just because someone else has been able to accomplish something doesn’t mean you can or in the opposite you can’t.

Those who don’t have this spirit have a hard time comprehending the actions of those that do & of those that do, the higher the inherent risk & the less prepared, certainly increases the failure odds. Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. Let Darwinism sort out the dumb or even in some cases the unlucky, as I’m not in favor of extremely risky rescues either. I’ve spent most of my life engaged in numerous forms of risky behavior pushing the envelope of what I thought myself capable with the only time needing to be rescued, being trying to keep up with someone else more skilled in what we were doing, instead of just challenging myself & yes it hurt & a tough lesson learned.

Jay
 
Hunkydory":pp3pver4 said:
... Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. ...
Click to expand...

I generally agree with your statement as long as the consequences of failure only affect the person(s) who willingly choose to participate. When you put non-participants or even your rescuers (or maybe recovery personnel) in potential harm you have overstepped this limit and the choice of what is acceptable risk is no longer solely yours to make.
 
Something must have been right for me taking risks when I was much younger as
I can now write about it. But things change and I wouldn't now do much of what I
did then.

Like, the name of my first boat was "Edge Finder'. Imagine.

Aye.
 
rogerbum wrote: Flirting with the edge of the envelope is not necessary to develop judgement. Knowledge is key. You can gain the knowledge both directly and indirectly. For some only direct knowledge seems to stick, others are able to learn from the experiences of those around them. That's one of the reasons why forums such as this are good. I can read about boating adventures and misadventures and learn a lot about what not to do without ever coming close to doing that thing.__

Basically, I think rogerbum and I are on the same page, with each of us perhaps pretty well attuned to translating vicarious experiences, aka the disasters of others, into avoidance of similar snafus of our own.

Sometimes, however, one gets into a bad situation he can not reasonably anticipate ... because he does not know what he does not know. In short, he is ignorant.

Maybe this anecdote will clarify the distinction:

On a WW raft trip in 1973, I almost drowned in Boulder Rapid on the Skykomish River, because I was ignorant of how a sousehole traps a swimmer. Fortunately, thanks to an experienced kayaker who prepped us beforehand, I had fresh secondhand information on how to escape one: swim down into the laminar flow of the river. I might not be here today without that advice.

To complete the anecdote, I had a sh#tload of experience bodysurfing big surf in my youth, which taught me that swimming down was a smart move in thunderous, aerated water. Without all that flirting with the edge of the envelope, I might not have paid attention to the kayaker when she said, "Go down to get away from whitewater."

YMMV.
 
If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.

Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.

Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.

The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework."
 
Foggy":3jbtkxt4 said:
If you never dare to explore the edge, go where you are not comfortable, I feel
you do not grow.

Doing something you may be afraid to do, knowing the risks and being prepared,
and doing it anyway builds self reliance and confidence.

Yes, experience is a great teacher. So is making mistakes if your head is on right.

The goal is competent awareness. This decreases fear. It is different for everyone.
Just because another had a bad experience does not mean, if you repeated it
under similar conditions, it will be the same for you.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "Always do your homework."
Click to expand...

I’m pleased to say on this I’m in complete agreement with you & Grandpa. :thup
 
I am more of the read as much as you can about a subject, and try and analyze and learn from the mistakes of others. I had decided I wanted to do World cruising when I was 15 or 16. I started reading all I could find about long distance sailing the. I also received many letters from people who were doing this--as well as those who failed, and lived to tell about it. The patterns of those who did not survive became very clear. They had not studied, analyzed and prepared. Just like those folks didn't listen to the weather forecast.

That does not mean that one never pushes the envelope--but to do it with planing an in a "smart way" is important. Today one can do this by watching videos on the internet--and reading many more stories than were ever printed.

The other is training--such as a pilot goes thru, or the kayaker or diver should go thru---create the emergency scenario under controlled circumstances.

For example, how many of the c Brats have really done a man overboard drill? Don't meant throw out a cushion. But (with a wet suit on), all of a sudden leave the helm, and jump overboard--to allow your partner the real experience of having to take over the boat. Get a life-sling or floating cushion/life ring to the person in the water, and then getting them back aboard the boat!

The fellow who jumped off the bridge--if he had know there was debris, and there was very swift water--judgement should have kept him from jumping---you cannot fix stupid....
 
Also, have you noticed this?

More reasons not to argue: It's difficult to win an argument
with a dumb person and it's impossible to win an argument
with a really smart person.

Aye.
 
ssobol":m8j0ldc9 said:
Hunkydory":m8j0ldc9 said:
... Personally, I favor freedom of choice with very few restrictions of what one can choose to do, as long as the hazards involved are known. ...
Click to expand...

I generally agree with your statement as long as the consequences of failure only affect the person(s) who willingly choose to participate. When you put non-participants or even your rescuers (or maybe recovery personnel) in potential harm you have overstepped this limit and the choice of what is acceptable risk is no longer solely yours to make.
Click to expand...

Amen. There is also the financial cost of stupid, to society. Do you know how many people my dept has to search for and/or save because they went into the mountains unprepared, out of shape and with zero knowledge or experience or preparation? Same goes for The Sound and the lakes.
 
Second thoughts.

Saying, even thinking, "people are dumb" is a gross misjudgment and
generalization. It is more a reflection on the sayer, or thinker, than the
"dumb person". It is being judgmental without knowing the total person being
judged; merely a moment's snapshot of the person unless you know them well.

That "dumb person" might be able to sit at a piano and play Bach or Mozart well
enough to make tears come to your eyes.

It's said, "We don't see the world the way it is. We see it as we are." This can apply
to how we see others. Thus, saying "They're a bunch of dumb xxxxx's" is really
saying something about yourself. It has nothing to do with who you are talking
about.

Of course, the antidote to judgmental thinking is being respectful to everyone.
Sometimes, it's not easy. Most worthwhile endeavors are not.

Aye.
 
Foggy":1x9pl7g2 said:
Second thoughts.

Saying, even thinking, "people are dumb" is a gross misjudgment and
generalization. It is more a reflection on the sayer, or thinker, than the
"dumb person". It is being judgmental without knowing the total person being
judged; merely a moment's snapshot of the person unless you know them well.

That "dumb person" might be able to sit at a piano and play Bach or Mozart well
enough to make tears come to your eyes.

It's said, "We don't see the world the way it is. We see it as we are." This can apply
to how we see others. Thus, saying "They're a bunch of dumb xxxxx's" is really
saying something about yourself. It has nothing to do with who you are talking
about.

Of course, the antidote to judgmental thinking is being respectful to everyone.
Sometimes, it's not easy. Most worthwhile endeavors are not.

Aye.
Click to expand...

Mozel tov Mr. Foggy !
 
Foggy":3dchf91d said:
Saying, even thinking, "people are dumb" is a gross misjudgment and
generalization. It is more a reflection on the sayer, or thinker, than the
"dumb person".

Aye.
Click to expand...

In my line of work, it's factual.
 
foggy, I like this line of thinking
"Of course, the antidote to judgmental thinking is being respectful to everyone.
Sometimes, it's not easy. Most worthwhile endeavors are not.

Aye.
Click to expand...

I have seen lots of "stupid" and often, you can't get one thread of common sense into that head, but it is always worth a try. I have seen life lost and have help in some successful rescues, and I have had the privilege of turning "stupid" around on some occasions and hopefully affected some incident specific education and some general practice planning tips that I hope have been carried on past a 10 foot perimeter.

I ran across 2 very experience and prepared sea kayaker's several miles off the NW corner of Vancouver Island. They were returning from a run out to Pine Island lighthouse, about 5 miles from Hope Island. They were fine, thanked me for checking and off I went after confirming there preparedness. These 2 were not stupid, but I would probably not find myself in their situation now. Maybe some years ago, but not any more.

I helped a guy decide not to launch at John Wayne to go halibut fishing when the winds were blowing 40 and the Strait was under high wind warning with 6 foot waves. There were 4 footers and mostly whitecaps inside the bay and he had an open 16 foot aluminum boat. It was going to be his and his wife's first time out for halibut and second time out in the boat. He wasn't stupid, he was ignorant. AND he was accepting of some common sense, some local knowledge, and a lifetime of experience.

Then there was stupid. 3 guys on a 23 foot, no name sailboat, wanting to go from Port Townsend to Victoria, with a AAA road map, no radio, didn't know if there were working lights on the vessel, it had an OB kicker, but no gas, ("because it is a sail boat, we wont need any gas") and didn't know they would have to check in with customs, so no passports. They did not understand "No, don"t do it, for a dozen reasons, --> lack of experience, training, preparedness, paper work, less than a marginal vessel, and .....

They thought they could still do it and off they went. A marine patrol boat blue lighted them before they got to Point Wilson. I suspect they were turned around officially. Stupid averted .... for one more day anyway.

We have seen it all, I'm sure, and it will continue to happen, but hopefully less often and with less serious consequences. Some of us see it more often and it is hard to believe there are so many that fit the category. Most of us, I hope, are many notches above and are smart enough to learn without becoming a casualty.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

IMGP2415.sized.jpg
 
Foggy":1k9ustcq said:
Second thoughts.

Saying, even thinking, "people are dumb" is a gross misjudgment and
generalization. It is more a reflection on the sayer, or thinker, than the
"dumb person". It is being judgmental without knowing the total person being
judged; merely a moment's snapshot of the person unless you know them well.

That "dumb person" might be able to sit at a piano and play Bach or Mozart well
enough to make tears come to your eyes.

It's said, "We don't see the world the way it is. We see it as we are." This can apply
to how we see others. Thus, saying "They're a bunch of dumb xxxxx's" is really
saying something about yourself. It has nothing to do with who you are talking
about.

Of course, the antidote to judgmental thinking is being respectful to everyone.
Sometimes, it's not easy. Most worthwhile endeavors are not.

Aye.
Click to expand...

I watched a bunch of people go swimming in their own chum slick from a chum bag (not to mention mine) at the Skyway Bridge at slack tide (lots of HUGE Bullsharks there). Seems the girls had to go to the bathroom.

I looked over at my son and said "Those people are idiots. " Never gave it much thought that they might be creative in any way. Just lump summed them into one broad category of stupidity. I guess the smart one was hanging on to the side of the boat. The dumb ones were holding onto to a rope about 20' off the stern. Almost looked like a supersized bobber and line.

I believe I followed my comment up with something like "Don't let me ever catch you doing something that stupid."

Darwin's Law of evolution did not play out that day, but they sure were testing it.

Looking back on it I'm still good with what I said. Nothing wrong with pointing out to your kid that there are stupid people in this world and don't be one of them.
 
So i went duck hunting yesterday near stannwood. Wind was blowing a solid 40 and gusting to 60 a few times. Was pulling my goose decoys out of the ground. They are anchored into the ground on a 3 ft long rod. Several times I was almost pushed off my ft and we were not in the direct wind but behind a berm.

Coast guard had to rescue two sailboarder off the water at kayak point just south of us. It was a 4 to 6 ft short spaced chop. IF that is not stupid I just do not know what is. Complete morons. Its not even lack of information. You can stand there at the waters edge and Go "f this its blowing 60 mph"
 
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