No Trim Tabs - Should I install them?

P

PeteHelsell

New member
I'm close to purchasing a 2000 22' Cruiser that has no trim tabs installed. I've never owned a powerboat (sailed all my life) so I'm not sure how big a deal it is to not have them on this boat. The boat has twin 50HP Hondas with no trim adjusters (Permatrim?). Here are three questions:

1) Do the trim tabs act to: a) bring the stern up / bow down to help get on plane, b) adjust fore and aft trim for rough weather, c) trim the boat laterally on those days when I'm cruising solo or when I bring a couple of linebackers who are sitting in the dinette seats - or all of the above?

2) Seems like the boat must have worked OK for the former owners - should I have trim tabs installed?

3) Is this a do-it-yourself type job for a person with average mechanical aptitude?

Thanks!

Pete
 
PeteHelsell":80ykxykv said:
I'm close to purchasing a 2000 22' Cruiser that has no trim tabs installed. I've never owned a powerboat (sailed all my life) so I'm not sure how big a deal it is to not have them on this boat. The boat has twin 50HP Hondas with no trim adjusters (Permatrim?). Here are three questions:

1) Do the trim tabs act to: a) bring the stern up / bow down to help get on plane, b) adjust fore and aft trim for rough weather, c) trim the boat laterally on those days when I'm cruising solo or when I bring a couple of linebackers who are sitting in the dinette seats - or all of the above?
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Pretty much all of the above although it's not so much to help get on plane as these boats plane easily. The biggest advantage of trim tabs and/or permatrims on these boats is to get the bow down to deal with rougher water.

PeteHelsell":80ykxykv said:
2) Seems like the boat must have worked OK for the former owners - should I have trim tabs installed?
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This is one of those things where you didn't know you need something until after you have it. For anything over about 1' of chop, trim tabs or permatrims will greatly reduce pounding. With twin engines on a 22, I think you can do just fine with permatrims. You'll be able to get the nose down and you can do some lateral trim as needed. With permatrims on twin engines on a 22, the boat jumps on plane without much bow rise. I had just permatrims on my former 22 with twin Honda 40's and I wish I had put them on earlier. With twins on a 22, it's hard to fit trims tabs but it can be done. However, IMHO, you'll do fine with just permatrims.
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PeteHelsell":80ykxykv said:
3) Is this a do-it-yourself type job for a person with average mechanical aptitude?

Thanks!

Pete
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Permatrims can be installed by a decent DYI'r.
 
PeteHelsell":11nozjkg said:
3) Is this a do-it-yourself type job for a person with average mechanical aptitude?
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I'm currently installing a set of M-120 trim tabs on my 22 and I would say yes (although I may need some help when it comes to the electrical part, but then I'll just ask). In fact, if you have the time and you care to do so, I'd say you're likely to do a better job than a shop. That's not because shops are not capable, because they are. It's simply because it's very putzy to do a really top notch job (especially in a cored transom), and if a shop charged for that labor, most people would run away screaming. On your own boat, and extra hour here or there can be taken, as long as you have the time and inclination.

Sunbeam

PS: Regular readers are probably thinking "Haven't you been installing those trim tabs for weeks?" Well, yes, but rather than an effect of it being super difficult, it's because I'm doing other projects at the same time, and so rather than getting anything done, it's more like advancing them all just a bit each time. And you know on a boat it's all interconnected!
 
My first 22 did not have trim tabs or a permatrim. My neighbor down the street put trim tabs on his--and it improved the ride into chop. Since I kept the boat on the west Coast, and only used it 2 months a year, it was hard to get the time to put the tabs on.

This second 22 (and my 25) had tabs, and I added a Permatrim to the 25. The 22 has a Doel Fin--not as good as the Permatrim, and I will be adding one later this year.

There is not question that the boats run better with trim tabs and a Permatrim, if properly set up. The difference is as Roger says. I have not had a twin engine boat--so I cannot comment on the use of tabs plus permatrims--but on a single engine boat, it makes a world of difference. The boat will run fine without--but it is better with.

As for Trim Tabs, there are two choices--hydraulic or electric. The electric are easier to install, the hydraulic are slightly better, but more difficult to install. I have had both. Currently I have electric and they are working very well.
 
Paying attention to weight distribution goes a long ways to reducing the need for trim tabs etc.
Our 22 has twin 40's with fins mounted on the motors. I have resisted the added complexity, weight and expense of trim tabs with success by keeping excess weight out of the cockpit.
 
Chester":1cg6sgzz said:
I have resisted the added complexity, weight and expense of trim tabs with success by keeping excess weight out of the cockpit.
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I can go along with the complexity and expense, but to my mind they are not a lot of extra weight -- and I even have the Bennetts, with the HPU that I would guess weighs more than whatever comes with the electrics. It's probably 10# or so when filled (?). Not that everything doesn't count, but I wouldn't chalk it up as one of their negative points.
 
The C-22 is very a stern heavy boat. With twin motors, gas tanks, batteries, probably coolers too in the stern there is only so much weight distribution you can do. Getting the bow down will add greatly to handling, control and the overall enjoyment of operating your boat. My 22 has twin 40's and came to me without tabs. After my first ride in another C-22 with tabs, I installed tabs (hydraulic). Last year after talking to 2 brats with twin motors, tabs and Permatrims, I installed permatrims. I wish I had done it sooner. Without the tabs, trimming the motors acomplished little or nothing. Now I have much more control over the boat. I highly recomend both. It's a pretty straighforward installation. There is excellent information on this site.
Good Luck! Twin 50's are great power for a C-22.

Bruce Cassal
"Carpy"
 
I had no tabs on my 22 with twin Honda 45's. Once I installed Permatrims, I never felt like I needed them. JMHO.

You can set the engines to keep bow down when you need it, up when you need that, and P/S lateral trim when you need that! No electrical/hydraulic stuff needed. Another advantage of twins over a single and kicker. :wink:

Charlie
 
PeteHelsell":2ax90utl said:
3) Is this a do-it-yourself type job for a person with average mechanical aptitude?

Thanks!

Pete
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Here are two videos that cover what is involved with installing them.

Bennett (hydraulic), 10 minute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKghuPCTpz8

Lenco (electric), 5 minute video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV2BKm1s0iQ

Keep in mind you will probably have to pull your fuel tanks to get to the inside of the transom. Not a big deal if they are empty. Not recommended if they are full.
 
PeteHelsell":2qs8f2ib said:
I'm close to purchasing a 2000 22' Cruiser that has no trim tabs installed. I've never owned a powerboat (sailed all my life) so I'm not sure how big a deal it is to not have them on this boat. The boat has twin 50HP Hondas with no trim adjusters (Permatrim?). Here are three questions:

1) Do the trim tabs act to: a) bring the stern up / bow down to help get on plane, b) adjust fore and aft trim for rough weather, c) trim the boat laterally on those days when I'm cruising solo or when I bring a couple of linebackers who are sitting in the dinette seats - or all of the above?

2) Seems like the boat must have worked OK for the former owners - should I have trim tabs installed?

3) Is this a do-it-yourself type job for a person with average mechanical aptitude?

Thanks!

Pete
Click to expand...

I will never own another boat without trim tabs :mrgreen: :thup
 
My 2002 22 cruiser with a single 90 Honda had no tabs or Permatrim when I purchased it. I hated the fact that to get the bow down in a chop, I had to trim the engine most of the way down (lots of drag) and could not completely control the list (caused by wind, weight distribution, etc.). I purchased Lenco trim tabs and this was a big help, but again I was not satisfied that I had to put the tabs way down in a chop to get the bow down (engine now not trimmed as far down as before trimmed with tabs). Still searching for the best overall performance, I installed the Permatrim (as a sailor I am very frugal with my spending on boat "things" so I was not excited to spend a premium on the Permatrim without absolutely knowing that it would work). I was happy as now I could get the bow attitude where I wanted it for the sea state and use the tabs to control the list of the boat, based on weight distribution. I do not have the engine trimmed down very far for most of my time underway and use the trim tabs sparingly to control list, so drag is minimized. I've put over 750 hours on the boat in two years, so I have tested these changes extensively.
PS, My other powerboat has hydraulic tabs and though I don't dislike their performance, the electric tabs weigh less and are easy to install.
Best regards,
Steve Baum
 
A comment on weight distribution--if you trim with weight to get the bow down going into chop--then you have to move the stuff aft to get the bow up in down wind swells, or there can be serious consequences such as bow steering. You do want to be able to change the trim of the boat rapidly, especially if you are going into rapidly changing conditions. For example we were coming up into the wind and steep chop (about 45 knots of breeze) South of West Cracroft Island, and made a turn into Johnstone Straight, with 10 to 15 foot rollers from aft in only a couple of minutes, as we ducked thru the Broken Islands. We run with the boat loaded--especially in the cockpit--generator, an ice chest, a food chest and the chest Waeco freezer, so shifting weight or keeping a lot of weight in the bow is not possible. Having both the Trim Tabs and an foil handles those conditions safely. If you routinely run in consistent or fair conditions then it may not be as important.
 
Yes, I had lencos on my 22 and it was great for controlling the left right trim on the boat. I think that the motor trim is under used by a lot of boaters. I used the trim of the single 90 to set the bow angle where I wanted it.

On my 27 I needed tabs again for the left right control. Telling my wife not to bring something because of weight is just not happening. The 27 is a very flat bottom, more so then any of the 25 or 22 since the early 90's, so I have to be careful not to use the tabs to bring the bow down as it will cause a very hard bow steer one way or the other unless the tabs are equal on each side. But that defeats the L/R balance. Again I use the motor trim to set the angle of the bow.

As for install the lencos are easy. Just plan ahead and know what you are going to do and in what order. I had 1500 plus hours on the 22 with out a problem with the lencos and used them again on the 27. LOVE THEM :love
 
When I purchased sea lab it hand no trim tabs, single 90 hp honda and would pound, was going to sell it but decided to try a few things before selling
Added:
1. Permatrim plate- it was a different boat worked very good but not perfect.
2. Added trim tabs - even better also a different boat but would still pound in the big chop.
3. Added 150 ft of chain in the locker up front - now it's amazing I can run 17-22 knots in 2-3 ft chop all day long, I frequent the Channel Islands during winter for lobster, santa cruz, monterey, SFO, the delta on windy choppy days are a breeze.

I learned one good lesson, get the weight in the correct places and balance your boat it will make for a much better ride.
 
letitride":3jn28kwg said:
When I purchased sea lab it hand no trim tabs, single 90 hp honda and would pound, was going to sell it but decided to try a few things before selling
Added:
1. Permatrim plate- it was a different boat worked very good but not perfect.
2. Added trim tabs - even better also a different boat but would still pound in the big chop.
3. Added 150 ft of chain in the locker up front - now it's amazing I can run 17-22 knots in 2-3 ft chop all day long, I frequent the Channel Islands during winter for lobster, santa cruz, monterey, SFO, the delta on windy choppy days are a breeze.

I learned one good lesson, get the weight in the correct places and balance your boat it will make for a much better ride.
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letitride-

You don't say what size chain you added, but 1/4" GS 40 HT chain weighs 0.74 lbs/linear foot, so 150 x 0.74 = 111 lbs. And it's right in the bow! Good addition!

I switched to 100 ft of 1/4" chain when I added my windlass (~18 lbs), larger anchor roller, and anchor, (probably about 100 additional pounds), and liked the effect very much.

I'm sure you can overdo it, which would make running in following seas difficult, but I'm sticking with the weight forward for now!

In addition, the 100 ft of chain is a great improvement, both in terms of holding the anchor down with mostly horizontal pull, and the chain doesn't slip at all in the windlass.

Much of my anchoring can now be done with the chain only part of the rode.

For stronger winds and deeper waters, the 1/2" three strand nylon New England Ropes section adds shock absorption as well as length/scope ratio.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
In your particular situation I would start with Permatrims, then add trim tabs only if you need them. I had twin engines on my 22 Angler, and installed Permatrims. They definitely added stern lift/bow down control, and I found I could use the hydraulic engine tilt to get good lateral (roll) trim control. Simpler, no holes in the transom, and one less system to purchase and maintain. With a single engine it might be a different story. I never had either on our single-engine 22 Cruiser, but it had a lighter 2-stroke engine and wasn't as stern-heavy. Just had to manage weight shifting while underway. All the best, Mike.
 
When it dawned on me that the lightweight porta potty fit between the fuel tanks and the always heavy 96 quart cooler fit in the porta potty's old location balancing the boat was mostly solved. Just enough of the cooler sticks out to access the small hatch in the lid which makes life even easier. Another advantage of keeping the cooler there is that it is surrounded with insulation. Jackets and-or stadium blankets draped over the end that sticks out completes the effect.
If we can't avoid a situation with heavy following seas the cooler, spare anchor & rode which roosts on top of the main rode and folding chairs stored in the V berth can be moved to the cockpit.
 
Sea Wolf---

The chain is 1/4" GS 40 HT chain and it works great on my set-up. I agree with your comments there are many pros and some cons to having all chain. I have been using a snubber line a ~10-15ft 3 strand rode to minimize the shock at anchor, this takes a few minutes to set-up and works great. :D

Running in a large following seas has not be a problem, I can still trim the bow up since the permatrim plate is installed on the main motor.
 
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