New gelcoat or let it be?

Although I agree with some of what Active Captain says, I don't agree with other parts. I believer would take far more than 3-5 Preval sprayer propulsion cartreges to completely re-gelcoat a C Dory. (16 oz max liquid sprayed with one propellant cartrege, but with viscous gel coat the amount that can be sprayed is less) One of the problems with using the Peval for people who are not used to using it, is that the gel coat has to be thinned to spray with these sprayers, and thus is difficult to get good finish and thinning with styrene will give a softer finish. Also as you mix the different containers, there is some risk of defects at overlap spray patterns. (each glass container contains only about 5 to 6 oz). Also after spraying gel coat, it must be covered from the air to cure--and this involves spraying Poly vinly alcholol--a mold release wax. I agree that for small dings, there is no question that re-applying gel coat is the way to go. It can be applied with a sprayer, or with a brush or small pallet knife. Many times it is not necessary to use a sprayer--just manual direct application and cover with an occlusive surface--like mylar film works very well. When I redid the 18 foot CC I purchased at hurricane salvage auction, the majority of the gel coat repair of scratches was done with a artist's pallet knife, just wipe on, cover and then wetsand to smooth. A few larger places required a Preval sprayer. But I would have to have a significant structural repair before I used the sprayer (and I have been using them for over 35 years)

However, gel coat does not adhere well to epoxy repaired surfaces. Someone posted that they had success with some primer. I have not used this primer. The generally accepted method is to use polyester materials to repair dings which will be gel coated.

Awlgrip or other two part urethanes are best used (much better than gel coat in my opinion) for a boat where the gel coat is gone--and boats in the tropics will eventually get to the point where the gelcoat is not repairable. Then any dings have to be filled, (in this case best with epoxy for better adherance), at least two coats of epoxy primer applied, with sanding and fairing between coats, and finally several coats of the two part polyurethane (like Awlgrip). I agree that it is hard to spray and different than other paints, but those who are good at it, make a mirror like finish, which is superb. The Awlgrip is harder than Gel coat (Hatteras finished all of their boats with Awlgrip for many years--not sure about current production). Although people do roll and tip, I have never seen a job as good as a good spray job. (I have only sprayed masts, and other relitatively small areas with Awlgrip--I don't have the experience to do boats with Awlgrip--so I hire a very good painter at $50 an hour to do the job--for me this is a better solution. I have also rolled a number of decks with non skid, which works much better than gel coat for non skid, and painted deck houses, trim etc with roller and tip brush using Sterling)

I have never seen any of the craftsmen I work with redo an entire large boat with gel coat--although it is occasionally done. (the initial build has gelcoat sprayed into the highly polished, waxed mold) We get 10 years out of a good Alwgrip job. Touch up is rare, because of the hardness of the paint--and generally the owners are careful, using fenders etc. Also I have sprayed clear coat over the pigmented base, and then if a ding recurs, you can easily respray the clear. Also one can use true metalics and cover with the clear for a classic gold cove stripe.

But, differences in techniques are what make the boating world interesting. Each technique can be used and it depends on what the craftsperson is most comfortable with.
 
thataway":2appgnqs said:
I believer would take far more than 3-5 Preval sprayer propulsion cartreges to completely re-gelcoat a C Dory

Well, I said 3-5 for a single coat. It would take a couple of coats. Still, at $3 a pop, that is very little. I did a pretty large area last year with multiple coats and used 2 cartridges.


thataway":2appgnqs said:
...but with viscous gel coat...and thinning with styrene will give a softer finish...Also after spraying gel coat, it must be covered from the air to cure--and this involves spraying Poly vinly alcholol...--a mold release wax.

Nah, that's the old way. It honestly is much simpler with fewer steps today. Today you mix the gelcoat and use acetone to thin it so that it is pretty thin. To that you add a liquid called Waxol which I get at a local marine store. This is a very thin liquid wax. When this solution is sprayed on, the wax rises to the top and forms the air barrier required for hardening. Light sanding of the area immediately removes the wax and cleans up the gelcoat.



thataway":2appgnqs said:
However, gel coat does not adhere well to epoxy repaired surfaces...

I don't think so. How would that be any different than the original glass and epoxy laid onto the gelcoat/mold when the hull was formed? I use West System for larger repairs all the time and use gelcoat directly over it. It works perfectly. The same is done by the professionals that taught me.


thataway":2appgnqs said:
The generally accepted method is to use polyester materials to repair dings which will be gel coated.

That is true. But it is because the polyester fillers generally sand to a much smoother surface than you can get with epoxy alone. Polyester has some negatives (little strength and more shrinkage).



thataway":2appgnqs said:
I have never seen any of the craftsmen I work with redo an entire large boat with gel coat

I've never seen a boat owner spray their own boat with AWLGRIP. It is too complex a job and requires too much expertise.

I agree that if you're at a point where you have to redo the entire hull, it probably isn't something you should be doing yourself. I just think that people get scared away from doing their own gelcoat repairs because there are many old techniques and rumors about it being difficult. It really isn't. It is way easier to repair a scratch or ding and get it mirror-finished and looking good than almost any other type of cosmetic repair you'd do on a boat.
 
Well we still disagree on things, including on how the boats are built. The vast majority of boats (over 95%) are made of polyester or vinyl ester resin--NOT epoxy resin. As I noted any mold is first prepared by polishing and waxing (Mold release wax or PVA). This mold has to be perfect, because the gelcoat is sprayed into it. There are often two colors sprayed--one is the white, and another opaque color coat. The opaque coat is also to avoid a translucent hull. The "see thru" hulls tend to scare boat owners. After the layers of gel coat, the boat is either hand laid up or chopper gun laid up using polyester or vinylester resins. The first layer is usually mat, then cloth/roving/biaxial etc alternating with mat, to adhere and wet out adequately the structurally stronger materials, with the heavier bundles of fibers. No epoxy is used in this process. The exception are custom boats using exotics, such as carbon fibers, boron fibers, kevelar, or wood laminates.

As far as spaying Awlgrip--as I said, I have sprayed a number of smaller parts, but don't do larger parts, a number of my boat building friends do their own Awlgrip of a complete boat. If you practice, you can do a very acceptable job. But many elect to do the prep, which takes most of the time, and then hire a very good professional at $50 an hour for the spray work.

Using acetone to thin gel coat gives an inferior product. Acetone should not be used to thing gelcoat. It will separate the pigment from the resin and soften the end product. STYRENE is the primary solvent used in polyester resins, not acetone, but even it in too much will soften the gel coat and give a poor adherance. Wax has been used for a long time--and "finish resin" has wax in it. You get a better gel coat finish with spraying PVA or occluding, than with adding wax to gel coat. But you can add wax--most professionals do not add wax. PVA washes off with water and no sanding, compounding etc required (if you do a good job).
As you say, to get a good job with waxed gel coat or resin, you do have to sand and then wipe with acetone--softening the gel coat.

Polyester bonding (and this includes gel coat) is far inferior to that of epoxy. It is a rule of thumb that one can put epoxy over polyester or vinlyester (vinylester bonds slightly better than polyester, but not as well as epoxy). Thus polyester gel coat does not bond well to epoxy. When doing repairs, or re-gel coating, you are doing a secondary, or weaker bond than the primary chemical bond which includes crosslinking of the resin as it cures.

Polyester is used because of the better bonding with gel coat--not because it sands out better. You can do just as good or better a repair with epoxy and it is the material of choice in the large repairs because of its superior strength and adhesion. In the hundreds of hurricane damaged boats there were both epoxy and polyester repairs done. Most of the major structural repairs were done with epoxy, and the boats were painted.

You can do all sorts of things to resins and gel coat--that does not mean it is the correct way to do it or that the result will be the best.

Regards.
 
Catdogcat -

This is a good thread to decide which way to go. My boat looks a lot better than it did when I took it in but I would not have had this done to a shiney new hull. Not sure what shape your 88 is in but mine had large rock chips and scratches everywhere especially on the bow. I am happy with the result but the paint is thick (They used primer and then micron extra paint). The lines could have been done straighter but I did stress that the main goal was to prevent deterioration of the hull. In other words, I think an "accent stripe" type of job would have been different altogether.

Was it affordable? Not especially, more than 2k, but I was worried that the alternative was finding that the hull was saturated with water, especially with the middle strake missing and the holes where the screws were holding it on were basically open and uncovered. Luckily, when they put the moisture meter on it they said that it checked out allright.

And for my 2 cents on gelcoat -

This would have been a tremendous job to fix the gelcoat on my boat. It was literally peppered with chips, dings, scratches and gouges from bow to stern. That is why I was able to buy it relatively cheap. But... don't all of you that bought new dispair, I am rapidly catching up to all of you in cost. My Break Out Another Thousand (B.O.A.T.)is living up to its name. I gotta quit wrenching on it now and get out and play with it!

Weston
 
One other comment on wax in resin or gel coat: There is a place for it, if you are going to do a stippled surface with a roller. However, the wax stays in place and is not sanded off (gums up paper badly)--because you want the irregularity for the "non skid".

Also, Gel coat is porous and must be kept waxed to best preserve it--as well as compounded every so often. The two part urethanes just need a wash off. The urethanes have a very hard and non porous surface. They should not be compounded or waxed. There is "Awlwash" and "Awlcare". The former a washing compound and the latter a stain remover and "protectant"--polymer sealer. A couple of cautions about Awlgrip: do not use it below the waterline if the boat is kept in the water full time. Do not shrink wrap or tightly cover it with plastic.
 
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