New 25 Owners - Single Engine?

Jeff and Julie

New member
Did all three that purchased new 25's at the show go from twin engines on their 22's to single on their 25's? Just curious as to what was the deciding factor for this or maybe it is not common to have twins on a 25'?
Thanks!
Jeff and Julie
 
I ordered a 25 cruiser at the show, also with a single 135. I have a
lot of time before it will be built. I would be interested in seeing what
other more experienced C-Dory owners are putting on there boats.

I do plan on a kicker at some time. Do any of you think that should
be sooner than later?
 
Yes, all three went from twin 40s on their 22s to a single 135 on the 25s. I can't answer for the others - but Les recommended the 135 as well matched to the 25. I believe the 135 is lighter than two 90s and has better fuel economy. Once when we broke all four blades off a Propulse composite propeller on our 22, we had to go a few miles on a single 40 - it barely did better than a kicker would have, loaded as we were it would not plane the boat. Never really used the "turn on a dime" trick (one engine in forward, the other in reverse, helm straight ahead) in a real situation. So we never realized the potential advantages of twins. Just thought we'd try the single this time - we have towing insurance for that very rare but possible situation of a break-down. Hope we never have to use it...


Jeff and Julie":1cksxr03 said:
Did all three that purchased new 25's at the show go from twin engines on their 22's to single on their 25's? Just curious as to what was the deciding factor for this or maybe it is not common to have twins on a 25'?
Thanks!
Jeff and Julie
 
Out of State Purchases: Something I learned when I bought my TomCat with twin 90s... In Alabama, you pay sales tax at time of registration when getting vessel documentation numbers/stickers. You pay sales tax on the "motor on the vessel" at purchase time.. So, If I had a receipt for the vessel and one of the motors, and a second receipt for the second motor, I could have saved paying taxes of 3.5% on the second motor.. Every little bit helps... especially if you are buying a CD25 for a "pocket Trawler" that is trailerable with a 15hp kicker on it for that trawler mode of cruising.. and that 2nd motor (135/150) on a seperate invoice..
 
The 135hp main and 15 auxiliary combination has been a sweet setup for our boat. Our target cruise speed is 20mph which the engine easily attains with plenty of power in reserve for the less desirable ocean conditions. Top speed is about 30 and average fuel economy with the Propulse prop is between 3.0 and 4.0 mpg. :)
 
Pat Anderson":328i6byi said:
Just thought we'd try the single this time -

There you have it. One of the most rational decision processes for the perennial 2 or 1 question. That is what it really comes down to. There is no right, wrong, best, or worst. If you want it on your boat, it is the best package going.

john schuler":328i6byi said:
I ordered a 25 cruiser at the show
Congratulations!! How far away is it by now?
 
That sounds like the right answer Mike.

I will not be taking delivery tell about the end of July.
I have other things pressing this spring and early summer.
Because I'm a new boater I wanted to take a few weeks
learning and what not over in the Seattle area and mabey a
C-Dory get together or two before I bring her back to Montana.

Any advice would be helpful
l
:shock: and new
Also what is the difference between a 25 cruiser and a 25 cruise ship?


john schuler
 
Been doing a lot of thinking about repowering Shearwater this year and was wondering what the new guys on the block (new to the 25' at least) were going to do. Looks like the 135 Honda winner.
I am currently running a 115hp Yamaha 2-stroke and can cruise around 18 mph at 4000 rpm with full load of fuel, water two people and all of the misc stuff like spares, tools, fishing equipment, 15hp four stroke kicker, anchor an on and on. Top end is 27mph at 4700 rpm. As a guess I would think total weight is close to 5700 - 6000 lbs.
Basically the motor spends it's life at 80% of full throttle, conditions permitting. Things were fine on the river but on the ocean I feel a bit under powered and there are times that it would be nice to get from point A to B a little quicker, again conditions permitting. Beating the crud out the boat and crew is no fun.
One advantage of the 115 hp is it only weighs 388 lbs
Don't want the complexity or weight of twins and would like to have the option of running the motor at less than 80% of full throttle with a cruise of 22 mph or so.

The short list today would be
150 hp four stroke 475 lbs
175 hp or 200 hp Yamaha HPDI 2-stroke 475 lbs
Have not completely ruled out 200 hp four strokes but at almost 600 lbs they are quickly falling off the list.
Then there is the Honda VS Yamaha thing on the 150 four stroke
As far as reliability goes it's a coin toss
Yamaha has an edge due to better gauges a $2500 price difference and they come with controls and multi-function tach
Honda has 4.5% interest and 2 year extended warranty right now to offset the price difference
Yamaha has 3 year extended warranty on the HPDI
Decisions, decisions

When I show up at Catlamastan it might be with a new motor
stevej
 
john schuler":2hkvs83v said:
Also what is the difference between a 25 cruiser and a 25 cruise ship?

Just noticed this, John. The CD 25 Cruise Ship is the label given to the first production run of the C-Dory 25. Beginning in 1995, C-Dory produced a total of six 25 foot "Cruise Ships", ending production in 1996 with the very boat that I own now. Hull number three is Shearwater, and belongs to Stevej (a couple posts above). It is my understanding that they fell behind on the production of the big seller, the CD 22 Cruiser, so they put the mold in storage. In '01 or '02 they dug the mold out and reintroduced the line. Initially they called the latest run the 25 Super Cruiser, but now they just call it a 25 Cruiser.

The only real difference between the original six and the new 25s is in the cabin, the roof, and the cockpit floor. The hull is identical.

Just recently, they made a new mold for the 25 hull and made a few very minor changes in the design. The first one from that mold was at the SBS, and the second should be ready just about now.

So remember - there are only six CD 25 Cruise Ships in the world, and two of them belong to C-Brats. If somebody wants one, they will have to chase down the other four, because Steve and me ain't sellin'!
 
Hi all,

In two of the above posts the authors wanted more horsepower to deal
with adverse sea conditions.

In my experience, the wave highth, spacing, and the number of wave trains intersecting is what controls speed in the ocean. When the seas build up, a C-Dory must slow down to operate safely. These boats cannot go "over the top" of a wave train like a deep-v hull.

I recall 'Sealife' Mike saying that he seldom is able to use full throttle in the Pacific Ocean off Ventura County in So Cal. He has a 22 angler with twin 40 Suzukis.

My own experience is that the only places I can run wide open is on smooth lakes and on smooth water in the Inside Passage.
 
Stevej...Have you tried proping your motor to let it turn up a little higher? If I remember correctly...you are on the low end of the top rpm range for that motor. Might help your performance.
 
Larry on a normal trip out halibut fishing to the chicken ranch (34 miles) I will only average about 14 mph. The average speed is limited by ocean conditions and hull design not hp like you said.
When I talk about being underpowered it relates more to a feeling of control, the ability to climb a swell and keep pace with it and what is left in reserve if more is needed.
There are days when conditions will allow me to run 18 to 20 mph (hp limited) and days when I’m lucky to average 10 mph (conditions limited)
From what I have experienced I think the 25’ is a bit more prone to pounding in rough conditions than the 22’ because of the added length and beam. Been passed by 22’ C-Dorys on a number of occasions and they do not look to be pushing the boats any harder than I am.
There are several reasons for wanting more hp
Speed is one component. Fishing off the Oregon coast is not like cruising the San Juan’s. There is always something to see but it’s no sight seeing trip. Given good conditions more speed means more time to fish or less time required to transport back and forth.
More hp means I can ride swells for longer periods of time and have increased control crossing the bar.
Less wear and tear on the motor is another factor. A larger motor requires fewer rpm to move the boat at any given speed than a smaller motor. Fewer rpm equals less wear and extended motor life.
Equal or better economy/mpg. Look at a fuel usage graph of a four stroke or hi-tech two stroke and you will see that a 200 hp motor running at 60% of max rpm will use about the same gph as a 150 hp motor running at 80% of max rpm. The new motors have a very good scale of economy and become more efficient as rpm drops.
Last but not least there is no such thing as too much power (within reasonable boundaries) in my mind. You can always throttle back to go slower but it’s very expensive to gain hp after the initial purchase has been made.

Chris you are correct that I am a bit over pitched and could drop an inch to get closer to the max rpm. Something I was going to mess with on the river this winter but have not had the chance yet.

stevej
 
Stevej,
Nice comparison of options. I have a CD25 with twin 90 HONDAs. These babies place abt 800#s on the stern, plus- the SS props.

The weight is spread out, but still there. The CD will jump when those 4 blade props grab. Here on the lower Ches. Bay, we too have some challenging WX.

After all this it pains me have a second thought abt twins. My main reason is and has been safety for cruising and towing. I have run the HONDA 135/150s and they have by far the smoothest transmission of anything I have experienced. They are almost like an automatic.. so smooth from FWD to REV. The 150 would otherwise be my choice.

Just a slow note from the right coast :lol: .

73s
 
Stevej,

Your reasons for wanting more power seem to be good ones. 115 2-stroke horsepower may not be enough for your boat. I have also felt that more power would be good when climbing an ocean swell. I have always been able to stay with the wave train but if you slip down the backside of the swell then its uphill and the 2-stroke does bog down.

I think the torque of the 4-stroke would push the c-dory hull better at the lower speeds than the 2-stroke.
 
Hi to all. First post. My wife and I ordered a new 25 Cruiser recently. Should be here (SF Bay area).mid-April.

We chose the twin H-90's, but I'm still not sure if it's the right choice. Not enough information at the time. A single 150 or 200 would probably be faster,lighter. and would likely use no more fuel. Probably cheaper as well, although adding a kicker would use up some of that. A small swim platform becomes an option as well, with a single.

Twins are a definite comfort offshore, and more controllable around docks, etc., particularly if wind and tide are acting up. So... I dunno. I suppose I could change the power option if I do it soon. Have to research it some more.

Thanks for the comments. Interesting thread.
 
I spent the afternoon at the dealer's and looked at some new info and talked to everybody including the head mechanic.

I'm satisfied that for me the twin Honda 90's are the way to go.
 
I am recanting, and this time for good.

I have been reading dozens and dozens of posts on the single vs. twins question. I have also downloaded engine/boat/speed/fuel usage charts until I am cross-eyed.

I kept thinking that there had to be a reason why so many of our northern neighbors are ordering the 25 with the single and kicker combo.

Experience and common sense tells us that the single, HP for HP is both faster and more fuel efficient than twins,(due to less drag and weight) while twins may well have an advantage in low rpm acceleration.

Where the Honda 90's are concerned, a further prioblem became apparent, at least for me. The Honda 90's only provide a meager 16 amps each of electrical power. That's only 32 amps with twins at maximum throttle. That's not competitive in the electronic age. As an example, Suzuki's 40 hp models exceed that. A single Suzuki 90 provides 40 amps; two and one-half times as much as a Honda 90.

Looking at a lot of charts also taught me a few things. There is a lot more involved here than just picking color and horsepower.

I looked at various other manufacturers, all of whom were cheaper than Honda in the sizes I am considering. I wanted to stick with Honda if possible, though. The question then became which Honda?

The official C-Dory brochure lists mamimum HP for the 25 as 200. Fine. Everyone makes those, including Honda. A lot of my boating will be in the Delta where the water is often glassy smooth. A big engine would be ideal for that.

It did not take long to get over that idea. I could not find performance tests of the different engines on the same boat, but I managed to get the size and weights fairly close.

Comparing the twin 90s to the single 200, the 200 was generally superior at displacement speeds on both MPG and GPH. At planing speeds the twins were superior in those categories, although not by a lot at similar speeds. Obviously the 200 would be faster, but that's not a big deal on a CD. The 200 has a 60 amp alternator, though, almost twice that of the twins combined.

Still,the 200 and a 15 kicker would cost almost 2 grand more, weigh only about forty pounds less than the twins, and use more fuel at normal speeds. Not a good choice.

I would have to run the 115 HP too hard at cruise, so it was not a good choice for me.

That left two engines, the 135hp and the 150. Both use the same block; a 2354cc double overhead cam 4 cylinder based on the Honda Accord.

Normally, when confronted with a choice between engines with the same displacement, i will opt for the lowest peak HP, particularly if the boat is heavy and/or not a speedy type. The lower peak HP usually means more grunt at low revs, which makes sense on a CD.

There is more to this than is apparent, though. Honda has just made its VTEC system available on the 150. Previously, only the 225 had it. As most people know, their VTEC system varies the intake valves according to rpm. Low lift and duration at low revs for outstanding low speed torque; then providing greater lift and valve opening duration at higher speeds for higher power. Best of both worlds. It's relatively trouble-free. Honda and BMW have been using it for years in cars.

Both of those engines also have Honda's "lean burn" fuel injection for improved mileage at cruise. A new dual stage induction system also should help performance at all speeds. The cooling system is also improved on both. Alternator output is only 40 amps, but that's still 25% better than the twins.
Dry weight is listed at 485 pounds. roughly 100 pounds heavier than a 90, but unlike the 90, you only need one.

The performance charts were instructive.At 1500 rpm the twins were going 6.6MPH at 1.6 GPH. The 150 made 5.9 MPH at 1.0GPH.

At 3500RPM the twins were going 24.4MPH and burning 7.8 GPH. The 150 was going 20.8MPH and burning 4.4GPH.

At 4500 RPM the twins were going 28.9MPH and burning 9.6 GPH. The 150 was going 30.2MPH and burning 7.5 GPH. Results were similar at most other speeds.

These results are imprecise, as I stated, because the boats are different. The lightest boat weighed 4300 pounds(the 150), while the heaviest (the 200)weighed 4900. Different bottom configurations, as well.

I think some general conclusions can be drawn, though.

This Honda 90 is old-tech. It has carbs, no VTEC, no double induction, no lean burn, old style cooling, and low alternator output. It will likely be updated soon, and this "dated" engine may not be highly sought after on the used market. It is simple,durable, and easy to fix, but I'm guessing that prospective buyers will want to know if the boat you are selling has the old engines or the new ones. Just my guess...

A new 150 plus a 15HP kicker will weigh approximately 160 pounds less than the twins, and cost about $1300 less as well.(according to my price list from the boat show) It should be about as fast, maybe faster, will use considerably less fuel, will allow the factory swim platform if desired, and should be cheaper to maintain. Probably save on controls as well.

The 135 plus 15 kicker is another $1300 cheaper, for a savings of about $2600 over the twins. I personally like the 150, but for many the 135 makes more sense.

I think I see why the big single and kicker isselling so well.

I'm changing my order Tuesday.
 
Phantom-

Excellent thinking and analysis! Fun to read, and great conclusions. Good choice! Maybe we'll see you one one of the Delta Cruises. Good Luck! Let us know how the boat building progresses. Joe.
 
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