Mastercylinder Question

R

Roy & Dixie

New member
When I purchased my 1999 22CD a couple weeks ago the sale included a 2008 MagicTilt tandum axle trailer with disc brakes on one axle. (not having brakes on all 4 wheels might be another issue in Fla). I sea trialed the boat but did not pull the trailer until I picked up the boat @ 55mi from home. I tow with a 2010 Jeep Liberty Trailrated 4WD and the rig handled beautifully on the way home and on each of 2 outtings within 30mi of home. Under normal braking one would never suspect the trailer brakes do not work. But it turned out that the disc surge brakes had an empty mastercylinder and the brakes do not work. The inside of the cylinder was very rusty and gooey. I suspect water had entered the brake system. I have cleaned out the rust and goo as much as possible, removed both bleeder valves and cleaned them out; they were both stopped up. Then with clean fluid, I began the 2 man proceedure of bleeding the system. I obtained a steady flow of fluid when a valve was opened, but the master cylinder would not build up any real pressure. I can see fluid boiling up out of the small hole in the bottom of the mastercylinder as I push in on the brake accuatator. I conclude I have a bad mastercylinder.

The system is a UFP A60. They have an excellent on-line owners manual with parts list. The master cylinder part number is #35154, which is shown on-line from several suppliers for $35-$40, but each supplier states it is a drum brake master cylinder. The owners manual does not specify either drum or disc. Is a disc master cyl different from a drum master cyl, and if so, what is the difference? There is a site listing a disc master cyl that appears to be the same unit as the #35154, but has a different number.

Any answers and advice would be appreciated.
 
Not to be rude but I have to think you are flirting with disaster. Why not call Magic Tilt with the model and serial number of your trailer and get the correct info from them. Trailer parts super store is an internet online supplier of these kind of things with a good reputation. If your trailer does not comply with state laws it might provide an opportunity for your insurance company to jump out the window if something bad should happen. That could leave you responsible and jeapordize your home / assets. I'm just saying. Good thing the "Jeep is Trail Rated" you might have to leave the road to keep from rear ending someone. :D
D.D.
 
As I understand it, in the automobile world, there are two different brake pressure systems for disk and for drum. Disk requires a significantly higher pressure from the master cylinder. That is the automobile brake world but I assume that trailer disk/drums have similar differences. The best advice was given. Talk to the trailer manufacturer. Your liberty is, in my opinion, way on the light side to be stopping a brakeless 22, as well as being on the light side in emergencies for stopping a loaded 22, even with working brakes. So, caution and lots of distance between you and the guy in front of you and trailering speeds of about 60 mph should keep you mostly safe. The Liberty also has a reputation...that I verified myself one windy day, of being dicey in high cross winds...without a trailer on behind. A trailer in cross winds magnifies any natural dicey tendencies of the towing vehicle in such winds. (I sold the liberty shortly after that experience). All of which means, you are wise to be working towards the best trailer braking that you can.
 
I replaced the actuator on my Magic Tilt trailer (not that trailer brand matters). Mine also came to me completely non-functional (I changed from two-wheel drum brakes to four-wheel disc brakes as part of the repair/upgrade). I remember that there were different cylinders for drum and disc, and I think it had to to with a membrane either being pierced or not (for disc it is pierced). So I suppose it might be possible to modify the membrane to go from drum to disc (by piercing it), but not in reverse ("un-pierce" ;)).

I imagine you'll get a new actuator anyway, but figured I'd mention about the membrane as I remember that from when I was actuator shopping.

Sunbeam
 
Roy
Harry is correct disc brakes have a higher working pressure both on cars and trailers The easist thing do do is just bite the bullet and get a new actuator. Please don't try to modify anything. They will cost more than a drum actuator but it is your brakes
 
Will-C":23uc7mne said:
Not to be rude but I have to think you are flirting with disaster. Why not call Magic Tilt with the model and serial number of your trailer and get the correct info from them.
Click to expand...

Not that you would have any way of knowing this, but "ha ha ha" on calling Magic Tilt. They won't talk to customers, but instead refer them to a dealer. This is not a bad first step (although I prefer a company which will talk to me), but worse, even if the dealer cannot get the info needed, Magic Tilt still won't talk to an end customer. That's their policy, and even when I called back and explained that I had looked online, had contacted a large dealer (who had contacted them and could not get the info), and was at a dead-end so could I please just ask them about a certain spec... no dice.

I like my trailer - it seems well made and tows beautifully - but because of this experience I wouldn't buy another of the same brand.

Not that this is necessarily a problem for Roy, as he can probably get the info needed from another source(s), but "just call Magic Tilt".... I wish!

Sunbeam

PS: This was last spring; I haven't tried again since then.
 
Agree with above. The Liberty when properly equipped is rated for 5,000 lbs, and should be "OK" for most 22's. But weight the entire rig--both the boat/trailer loaded for the road, and the entire rig looking to see if you are over the combined max vehicular weight.... I would put the jeep slightly above the Honda Pilot I used to occasionally tow my first 22. For the second boat, when we purchased a tow vehicle, we went with the Yukon XL--longer wheel base, heavier running gear, better breaks, better ride etc...A lot depends on how much you are going to tow. If just a few miles several times a year--that is much different that cross country with the Rockies along the way!

Get the proper master cyl.

Florida does require brakes on both axles. I have never been stopped or questioned, but...it it happens or there is an issue, then you may have a problem. So while you are doing the complete rebuild of the brake system, put on the entire unit on the second axle. Also I suspect that you will probably find other issues on the disc brakes.

Also always carry an entire extra set of bearings (two is better). Many of us also carry an extra hub, all ready to bolt on, just in case.

We always check the entire system before hitting the road, including cycling thru grease to be sure that there is no water in the bearings.

Good trailering and enjoy the boat!
 
Both master cylinders will work, but the drum brake one has a preload valve that is in front of the actuator piston. That valve either can be punctured or removed. The main problem is that disc brakes are so effective that without having the ability to "lockout" the actuator when backing up a slight grade, the brakes lock up and will not allow that to be done. The disc actuators have either an electric or manual device to disable the master cylinder when backing up. There usually is a schematic included with the master cylinder describing what to do...there are also sources you can search that show how to do it. Ron
 
I just had bearings and brake actuators replaced in Yuma. The trailer is a 2 year old Road Runner with 11,000 miles. The actuators were not moving on 2 wheels due to corrosion. The mechanic says this is really common on boat trailers as mfg use cheap actuators, and the frequent water dunkings play havoc.. The replacement ones are heavy duty, silicone sealed units that the mechanic further sealed with silicone on the brake plate. They work fine now and should last. I feel the brakes coming on now when before they were sketchy. My trailer is better than new now, and I will do a bunch of research when needing a new trailer as there must be one out there that is actually designed for long distance tows and reliability. I think many of us long towers have more issues with trailers than any other part of the system. Best of luck. George
 
Thanks for all the input. I'm getting an education on boat trailers, for sure. I am about at the point of redoing the whole brake system. I have a bad accuator, brakes on only 1 axel (and it is on the front, not rear axel), I have no idea the condition of the calipers, and I need 4 wheel brakes.
 
Roy & Dixie":dobuyfr5 said:
I am about at the point of redoing the whole brake system.
Click to expand...

I had it "easy" because the whole braking system on my (tandem) trailer when I got it was clearly unusable. Rusty actuator (I'm referring to the part on the tongue when I say "actuator" - maybe that's not correct usage), drums on one axle only, deteriorated lines, etc. I never towed with the system like that, so I don't know how much better what I have now is, but I can say that now I can just about stop better when towing vs. when not.

I put Kodiak disc brakes on both axles, along with new brake lines and a new actuator as well (has a lockout solenoid). My original new actuator was Tie Down brand, and although it had some nice features, it turned out it was defective (I slowly worked my way through all the system components to find that out). Calling Kodiak (when troubleshooting) was a very pleasant and helpful experience; calling Tie Down was .... less so. I ultimately just went with a different brand of actuator when replacing the defective one (Titan, who were also great on the phone). I did like some of the features of the Tie Down one (better solenoid/easier to bleed) but wanted to go with a different brand in case of future need for tech support.

I imagine there are a lot of good ways to go, but the Kodiak discs have been fantastic. I was initially planning to upgrade to an electric-over-hydraulic system for mountain passes, and just general goodness, however after using my upgraded surge system on a cross-country tow, I found it to be delightful and have no active plans to upgrade to the EOH on the 22/tandem (I'm sure it is great, but I was happy with the surge system on my rig).

Sunbeam
 
Sorry for the misinformation. That is just poor customer service. I have a Float On Trailer and my advice would have been fine if you had a Float On trailer. I deal with them and they provide good service and fair prices. I think Magic Tilt is missing the boat if they do not even provide you a dealer to go thru. They tried to sell me a Magic Tilt and I was told Float On was better. I'm glad I listened.
D.D.
 
Will-C":bqce71a0 said:
Sorry for the misinformation. That is just poor customer service.
Click to expand...

Well how were you to know?

Will-C":bqce71a0 said:
I think Magic Tilt is missing the boat if they do not even provide you a dealer to go thru. They tried to sell me a Magic Tilt and I was told Float On was better. I'm glad I listened.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, I called Magic Tilt because I had a question on some specs (potential new parts) for my new-to-me trailer. I had looked on the website to familiarize myself as much as possible, but there was some data I couldn't get that way. Magic Tilt said they don't talk to customers directly, but they did refer me to a dealer. While I would have preferred to talk to them directly, given my question, okay, I can call a dealer, no problem. Well, the dealer didn't know the info either, and were happy to call Magic Tilt on my behalf, but kind of gave me a "don't get your hopes up" feeling. As it turned out, they were not able to get the info for me. So I called Magic Tilt back and explained but... no, they still didn't talk to customers. It was a frustrating dead-end, especially since I didn't just call them out of the blue, but had instead done my legwork on their website first.

The trailer itself is nice and tows well, but ... geez. Maybe they've changed - this was last spring and I haven't tried again.

Anyway, yeah, I pay attention when people say things like, "I called up EZ-Loader and gave them my serial number -- they cheerfully identified which parts I needed and got them in the mail to me."

Sunbeam
 
The trailer itself is nice and tows well, but ... geez. Maybe they've changed - this was last spring and I haven't tried again.

I've been calling the actuator mfg: UFP, Mdl a 60. They answered all my questions and referred me to a parts dealer. On-line I entered the part # and found several suppliers. I chose Pacific Boat that had a good price, web page, easy order format, and I can track my shipment. I'm starting with a new Master cylinder, designed for disc brakes. I'll work down the line to calipers one step at a time.
 
That sounds like good service :thup I had some really good experiences with Kodiak (brakes) and Titan (surge actuator), plus others, when getting those parts for my trailer. Luckily most trailer parts can be sourced elsewhere and/or come from other folks anyway. But my Magic Tilt question was about some Magic-Tilt-specific frame specs.

Sounds like you're going to give your trailer some nice upgrades.

Sunbeam
 
Your liberty is, in my opinion, way on the light side to be stopping a brakeless 22, as well as being on the light side in emergencies for stopping a loaded 22, even with working brakes. So, caution and lots of distance between you and the guy in front of you and trailering speeds of about 60 mph should keep you mostly safe. The Liberty also has a reputation...that I verified myself one windy day, of being dicey in high cross winds...

Some of the facts that I learned on this subject today includes the law in Fla which states that a trailer weighing up to 3,000lb can be towed without trailer brakes, but the trailer cannot exceed 40% of the tow vehicle weight. My Liberty weighs @3600lb x 40%= 1440lb. So even if the 22CD on the trailer weighed 3,000lb, I could not tow it with the Jeep. Or my tow vehicle would have to weigh 9,000lb. I have been towing a 20ft poontoon boat with a 40hp Yahama 2-stroke for years without brakes on the trailer. I am sure I was very close to the 3,000lb, but certainly over the 40% figure.

The first time I drove the Liberty at any speed over 45-50mph I realized how sensitive the steering is. If corrections in steering is made by moving the wheel quickly, even a very snall amount, the Liberty responds like a sports car. Once I got use to this very high ratio, sensitive steering, I've had no problems. If the wind causes a course change, a correction must be very slight. Chasing an over-correction will wake you up in a hurry.

Almost all my trailering will be to Fla rivers and the ICW, all within 65mi of home. Speed limits are 55mph for the most part, and I do not exceed the limit.
 
Also always carry an entire extra set of bearings (two is better). Many of us also carry an extra hub, all ready to bolt on, just in case.

We always check the entire system before hitting the road, including cycling thru grease to be sure that there is no water in the bearings.

My spare includes complete hub with bearings. I greased the bearings as I arrived home after purchase, and plan to every couple of trips to ramps into fresh water, within 25 mi of home. When I launch in Daytona Beach, 65mi distance, it will be into salt water. The ramp has wash-down area which I will use after launch, since I will be leaving the tow rig for several days, then again at haul out before heading home.
 
You guys and your marginal tow vehicles.....I remember this one time, at band camp, I towed my CD 22 with a Geo Metro.....

My advice, since there was rust in the master, replace all of it as EVERYTHING is probably rusted up in the hydraulic system. Honestly, if you are on such a tight budget that you are looking at ways of modifying a brake system to save a few bucks, maybe you shouldn't be on the water as a new brake system costs peanuts when compared to everything else. Just buy new parts......And, while you are at it, have somebody who knows what they are doing so the rest of us are safe on the highway.
 
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