Maiden Voyage with new Dory and 80 hp Yamaha was a flop...

B

Beartrack

New member
We took the 22 C-Dory with the 2001 80-hp Yamaha out for it's maiden (to us) voyage yesterday after back flushing the carbs, replacing / upgrading the fuel-water separator, replacing the fuel filter, and installing new batteries.

Unfortunately the trip didn't go so well - good thing we had just picked up a backup kicker motor the night before! We made it from the moorage down the river about a mile and had to turn around and come right back. The main 80 hp Yamaha 2001 motor never did come up off of running on just 2 carbs (or at least 2 cylinders) apparently after trying to run it for about 15 minutes at 1300 to 2100 RPMs. It ran very rough at pretty much all RPMs, then when I tried to push it above 3k it backfired once or wouldn't stay running so I stopped trying, switched to the kicker and drove that back to the dock.

Also, though I couldn't tell for 100% certain, the charge seemed to have dropped on the 1 battery that was turned on at the marine dial switch rather than have stayed/gone up in charge - to the point it wouldn't restart the main motor actually after having accidentally just left the key in the wrong position for 15 minutes while running the kicker. So I'm guessing the 80hp Yamaho also is not charging the batteries either. Anyone have any ideas?

Reading the Clymer Yamaha Outboard Shop Manual last night until 3:00 a.m. and again this morning, sounds like it could be any number of things that could keep 2 cylinders from either getting the right gas or firing correctly:
1) electrothermal valve not warming up;
2)battery charging coil or rectifier/regulator not getting the right voltage to the sytems and thus not warming the electrothermal valve,
3) the ECU having a prob - and thus not signalling the 2nd 2 cylinders to come on,
4) the engine temperature sensor;
5) 1 of the 2 crankshaft position sensors not getting a reading;
6) some fuel system problem I've missed resulting in not enough fuel and what I think is 2 cylinders not firing is just all 4 running roughly; or
7) Carbs out of synch badly
8) some other problem that as a newbie I've missed.

I've worked some on off-road vehicle fab in my past, and occasionally on older cars, but this whole outboard things is a new adventure for me; I've never done it and all I know is pretty much what's in the shop manual here.

Have to say, it sure was a bummer of a maiden voyage for my wife, daughters and even the dog yesterday but I'm hoping to get this fixed and working ASAP. Any pointers, ideas, thoughts - or even things to avoid - would be hugely appreciated!!! Thanks gang. Also, according to the Shop Manual, looks like I would need several custom wiring harnesses from Yamaha to test some of these parts; anyone here ever used them / owned them and are they something I could easily fabricate myself and/or are they expensive to purchase from Yamaha?

Thanks again folks, really could use some help on this...
Beartrack
 
hi
know how you feel
i have had to change the plugs in my 2004 ymaha 115 hp for the same problems and that was all it took, they appeared good to look at but were breaking down.
battery discharge may be separate problem
good luck
wayne in pensacola
 
Chances are good you have old gas, trash/varnish, and moisture in the fuel tanks/carbs. And plugged up jets in the carbs. With untreated gas and by not running the engine over the winter these are classic symptoms.

Check the fuel tank vents on the side of the boat. Insure one opening faces down and the other faces aft. It is common to have these get twisted so that one opening faces forward. Then when the hull throws up a spray of water it goes straight into the fuel tanks.

I would suggest you pull the fuel tanks and wash them out. Then drop in a can of Berryman's Chemtool B-12. It comes in a metal can, cost $3 and is available just about everywhere, including Wal-Mart. Follow the directions on the can. Only mix it in one fuel tank with 12 gallons of fuel or whatever it calls for. Don't fill your tanks all the way up.

Change the water separator/fuel filter if you have one. If you don't have one yet, they are well worth the cost in reliable engine operation.

If the primer bulb is not in good shape change it out. There are two check valves in this bulb. If one hangs open your engine can't suck enough gas from the tank. Spend the big money on this one. Go with a name brand bulb. DO NOT buy the Atwood bulb at Wal-Mart.

Not sure how you back flushed the carbs. But I would drain all four float bowls (small screw at the bottom) into a cup and inspect for dirt and water. Then remove all four float bowls. Remove the floats and needle valves. Clean and spray the jets, vents and all fuel passages with lots carb spray cleaner. Soak everything. Let it sit awhile and soak some more. No need to rush here. Use a toothbrush if varnish is present on the floats and such. Before you put the bowls back on pressurize the fuel system. Check the floats and needles for fuel flow. Close the floats by hand and ensure the fuel stops when the needle is closed.

Check the little plastic fuel filter in the port back corner of the engine. Change if necessary. You can get a cleanable clear filter with three extra filters at Wal-Mart for about $7. These are much easier to see and inspect for water and dirt. Find them in the marine section.

Put it all back together and test it. If you have a good idle the idle passages are clear. If it gurgles and sputters at about 1500 to 3500 your main jets are still gunked up. Remember the B-12? This stuff has some very strong solvents (just check the MSDS) and will continue to work just by having the gas in the carbs. So you might just run around a bit and see if it clears on up. Once you get it running good use a fuel stabilizer to prevent this drill in the future.
 
Might suggest either before you rip into it or after if the problem persists, pull the spark plug cover off (or leave it off if just replaced the plugs). Then start the engine, it should idle even with only 2 cylinders firing, might have to give a little throttle boost to bring up the rpms. Then, using a spark plug wire puller (plastic pliers looking thing), pull the plugs wires one at a time, then put back. The one(s) that don't result in a drop in rpm are the cylinders with problems. Then you can concentrate the bad carbs/electrical. Good luck.
 
I agree with Chris, this sounds like plugged jets on the carbs. One thing you can do, is to get a Welding Torch tip cleaner and after you find the right size you can slip it into the main jet to help clean it out. DON'T force it! This can make a huge difference.

I have to do this on my old Honda 7.5 all the time as the oxygenated fuel we get doesn't get along with the small jets on that carb. I can R&R the carb is less than 20 minutes now.
 
I also have a 2001 Yamaha with carb problems. It turned out the fuel was contaminated with what looked like rust but didn't respond to a magnet. I had the tanks cleaned but they screwed that up so I ended up replacing the tanks. The mechanic cleaned the carbs twice (once after the poorly cleaned tanks were reinstalled) and said the # 3 cylinder was packed tight with the stuff both times. When I replaced the tanks I put on a good filter and water separator. I've got about 25 hours on it now and ..phew..all is fabulous.
The cause of the rust colored powder is still unknown. The best guess is that the fuel additives used by the previous owner caused the problem. The tubes that sucks the fuel from the tanks were both looked totally eaten up and covered with the stuff. They almost looked like they had been put in a bath of very corrosive material. The metal screen at the inlet was unaffected.
I just bought the boat last fall and most of my winter was used up with test runs and frustration. I can truly sympathize. She runs like a swiss clock
now though and we're enjoying the hell out the boat!
Dick
 
Thanks all,

I should have mentioned, I already removed some of the old fuel out of the 1 tank I'm currently running off of, added a full recommended dose of Sea Foam, and topped it off with Super Unleaded in case the octane had dropped from being stored by the last owner since December. However I should also mention that in the former owners spare parts, supplies, etc., I found a LOT of preventative maintenance fluids, including Stabil (partially full container) and I talked to his old mechanic who told me he was meticulous about his maintenance. So that's hopefully at least a good sign on the fuel... plus the fuel doesn't smell bad.

I just replaced the plugs today... they were sooted black but no super heavy carbon buildup... I'm guessing it's running rich? All 4 were NOT identical. I'm attaching a photo of the plugs to see if that gives anyone any clues... I've not seen this before, and given that cylinders 1 and 3 fire off one coil (and both have thermoelectric valves), and 2 and 4 fire off another coil (and don't have the thermoelectric valves), I would have thought their burn patterns would be similar for 1 and 3, then 2 and 4. They weren't. Plugs 1 and 2 both showed far less carbon buildup and the top of the electrode was clean. Also, 1 side of each of their ceramic post was still white. However plugs 3 and 4 both had carbon buildup all over their electrode and all the way around their ceramic center post. Any thoughts?

Sounds like it would be worth getting set up with a 6-gallon "backup" tank tomorrow and try running from there to see if that has similar problems to isolate if something in the fuel line or primer bulb itself could be the problem... as mentioned above, already replaced the fuel-water separator and went to a better&bigger one at the same time, plus changed out the fuel filter yesterday.

I do know the former owner was using a fuel additive from Yamaha called Ring Free. Anyone heard of this? Or heard if it can cause these types of problems in the fuel lines that are used by the C-Dory manufacturing folks?

cdory.msnw
 
Aha! Dora~Jean, great idea!

Here's what I found. I tried with all plugs on pulling 1 wire at a time. It looks like it's running on 3, not 2 cylinders - told you I was a newbie! :-)

The only spark plug wire pulled that did not result in an RPM change was the one going to #4, the bottom cylinder... of course the most difficult carb to get to. Since #4 appears to fire off of the same coil that #2 fires off of, 1) is that appearance accurate, and 2) if so, does that leave only the carb that could be the source of the problem at this point?
 
Ring free is used to prevent the buildup of carbon in the combustion chambers. It is recommended by Yamaha and should have no ill effects on the fuel system. If the plugs are firing at idle, the sooted plugs most likely are the result of plugged up jets and dirty float needles. The cleaner plugs are getting a better atomizing mixture of fuel and air and are the ones working. The sooted ones are not firing as well and are getting more of a drip instead of a good mixture. I would imagine these cylinders are running colder which will compound the problem and increase the sooting/oiling. I suspect this has something to do with the engine stored in the tilted position. The top carbs get tilted a bit more than the lower ones.

Does the cooling water coming out the tel-tale get warm?

Does the cold start enrichment make the engine run at a good smooth high idle?

A volt meter will tell if the engine is charging. Put the battery on a slow charger before the next trip out. If all connections are clean the battery most likely is just too old to hold a decent charge.
 
Hi C-Weed!
Thanks for the reply and the info on the Yamaha additive. On the engine tilt, that's a pretty interesting thought!

On the batteries - where is the best place to check for voltage charging from the Yamaha 80? Both the batteries are new as of 2 nights ago, so unless I got a lemon (or 2) I should be ok there, but I'm still very concerned that the 80 might not be charging properly.

Is there any chance I'm just getting a weak spark? Do any aftermarket companies supply upgraded ignition coils for these motors? I know it's a fairly common upgrade in carb'd cars to get a complete burn and get the most power you can to upgrade the coil. Does anyone make such a setup for 4-cycle outboards and if so has anyone here tried them? Would be interesting to know.
 
When checking for voltage I always start at the batteries and work towards the engine. Start by checking just the voltage of each battery with the engine off. If both are new and charged up they each should show about 12.5 volts. Follows the cables to the engine and check the voltage. It should be the same or very close. Check all connections and ground wires for corrosion. You should have a volt meter on the dash. What does it indicate?

With the engine started and running properly the voltage should show between 13.5 to 15 volts. If you had new batteries on your maiden voyage, even without charging capability a fresh battery or two should run the outboard for quit a while.

If you have a battery combiner switch normally there is never any need to have one battery or the other switched on at any time. If one battery is considerably weaker than the other and both are combined the stronger battery will try to charge the weaker battery without the engine on. With the engine on it takes much longer to charge both batteries at the same time.

If all this checks good, there is a possibility that an electrical item is draining your batteries.

The best way to check for weak spark is to remove the spark plugs. It works best to use a jumper wire with an alligator clip at both ends. Ground one clip and hook the other clip to the electrode on the plug. Have somebody bump the starter. You can remove all the other plugs for a few reasons. The engine will turn over much easier. The engine won't start. The engine won't try to vapor lock with fuel in the cylinders. It is easier on the starter. Try the test with a plug on each wire.

Generally super coils aren't needed on an outboard. The stock ones are more than adequate for reliable power.
 
Looking at the plugs, my guess would be that the top carb(s) have plugged jets and you are running on the lower carb(s). In order to run you probably had to have the choke on a bit to get enough fuel to run. Thus the black plugs for 3/4 and the lean plugs for 1/2.

This is also confirmed by the following statement.
The only spark plug wire pulled that resulted in an RPM change was the one going to #4, the bottom cylinder... of course the most difficult carb to get to. Since #4 appears to fire off of the same coil that #2 fires off of, 1) is that appearance accurate, and 2) if so, does that leave only the carb that could be the source of the problem at this point?
Click to expand...

If you pulled #4 wire and the RPM dropped that cylinder is firing.

Plugged jets on a carb means that you don't get the fuel you need to the cylinder. Carbs will ALWAYS pass enough air but when a jet gets clogged you won't get the fuel needed. By using the choke less air is allowed into the cylinder thus raising the fuel/air ratio.
 
Apolgies! I was very tired when I typed that - - # 4 i the only cylinder that did NOT result in an RPM change actually. I will edit my post above...
 
Chris has given you some excellent advice and suggestions. Another possiblity is that you are using a higher alcohol content fuel and bringing some of the contaminates into suspension. I like to use a Racor filter, in front of the built in filters (the Yahama clear filter is more of a screen). Generally a 10 micron filter is satisfactory.

You might also consider "polishing the fuel"--that is pumping the fuel from one tank or into a container, thru a low porosity filter (we used a 2 micron filter when we "polished" the fuel in the C D 25 I purchased which had been in the tank (with Stabil)for 18 months. We have burned all 100 gallons of this fuel without incident--we filtered/polished the fuel, then added more Stabil, Soltron and put in 50% new fuel.

I agree with the separate fuel container at this point, until you can filter the fuel from the tanks adequately. Many of the fishermen use ring free on a regular basis and I have never heard of any problems with it. It sounds as if the previous owner took good care of the boat--and you have a minor glitch--too bad it is during the vacation! It will sort out and the engine will turn out to be fine.
 
Thanks Thataway - what would be the most cost-effective way to build a setup for polishing this 40+ gallons of fuel... do I need to purchase a separate Racor to do this? I'm guessing the cheapest containers to hold it during filtering will be a bunch of 5 gallon buckets but also open to any thoughts there folks might have.

When I upgraded the water separator/filter that was inline before the motor, it was a "Sierra" brand 26 micron filter. I upgraded the size to a canister about 6" tall, went with a Merc, 10 micron. But especially having put the Sea Foam fuel system cleaner in there I could see how that along with the oxygenated summer fuel could bring some gunk into suspension.

I dropped the boat off yesterday at 3-Rivers Marine in Woodinville to do a general tune up and charging system check and they are going to give the whole motor a once-over to find out for sure what all I'm working with here... $500 they want... ouch! But I want to know for sure if I should keep spending time whittling away at this plus they will be in a much better position to properly adjust the carbs so 2 aren't running so rich.

Also, in the midst of all this (sigh) I got in the back of the boat Sunday and found that the long cleat that holds in the starboard tank had popped out. Closer inspection showed balsa rot and standing water around 2 of the screws when I drilled the area out. So far it looks like it's limited to an area close around the screws. But at this point I'm getting pretty frustrated with all of this and told them to go drill out all 5 screws for both tanks cleats, find out the extent of the water damage (in case there was any on the other screws that didn't show) and fill all 10 with Marinetex or Epoxy or whatever is best . So that's where it's at currently. Couldn't afford any more time off work to be doing all this, though they wanted another $355 to do the screws/Marine-tex. Grr... Are these guys unusually high or does that checkup of the engine and that fiberglass/Marine-tex work sound normal to folks here?

Anyway, thanks everyone for the info!!! What a super site!

Oh, and C-Weed, you were right! On both overflow vents the 2 holes for each were pointed as follows; 1 about 15 degrees forward and the other about 15 degrees back... I readjusted both to be 1 down, the other about 30 degrees back. Thanks!
 
Beartrack,

:thup on the vents.

The rot at the fuel tanks mounts can be a common problem if the screw holes aren't sealed good and the boat sits out where water can collect in the cockpit. Just removing and re-installing the fuel tanks loosens the screw holes over time. It is not a great set-up. Several folks on this site have came up with a much better solution for correcting the possibility of rot plus a stronger, better mount for holding the fuel tanks.

I think some made "L" shaped aluminum (or starboard?) brackets and glassed them into the floor. Since you need to remove the rot, now is the best time to search the solutions and come up with a better fix and glass it in as the repair is made. When complete your boat will be much better with stronger fuel tank mounts. Well worth a little effort now since the tanks will be removed.

It always seems to be two things with boats.

1) Finding the problem.

2) Finding a solution to prevent the problem.
 
The cheapest way to build a polishing system would be to use a automotive fuel pump. I do not like to use these (unless ignition protected--and Walbro makes such a pump at a premium) inside of the boat. We like to attach a hose to the draw tube from the fuel tank, at the priming bulb or the inlet to the engine. (I don't remember if the CD 22 has 1/4" or 5/16" fuel line, but buy fuel line, not clear plastic hose. Good fuel line is also static protected. Keep the pump (mounted on a stand in our case) ouside of the boat, and away from fumes. We use a separate battery away from the boat, and have an ignition protected switch by the fuel pump, so we are not creating an spark when we attatch batteries to the fuel pump. You can use either a filter you have or buy one. I prefer the Racor, because of the clear water separator and availability of the various sized filters (30, 10 and 2 micron). Yes, several 5 gallon cans would be fine. We used two 50 gallon drums (plus we have 40 gallons in five gallon cans we store for hurricane season--so containers are not a problem for us).

Always remember that you are dealing with gasoline, besure that items are grounded, that there are not sparks and the area is well ventaillated.

Agree 100% with Chris. Marine Tex is an epoxy with filler and pigment. It is a little harder and more brittle than what I like for putting screws into, but will work. We use epoxy, with a low or medium density filler to fill in the drilled out screw holes (if we are going to replace the screws). We also undercut the balsa core, to be sure that all wet material is removed. The idea of glassing in alumium tabs is excellent--I would prefer to glass / epoxy to the bottom of any C Dory rather than to drill a hole and screw into it. There are a few places (like bilge pumps) where screws are necessary, but these can be screws driven into epoxy filled areas.

Your problems are not serious--just agrivating. Remember that some new boats have equal or greater problems...You will have it all fixed in a few days and have the rest of the summer. It is tough to loose days or vacation time, when you have a family and are working!
 
I forgot to add one thing about pulling plug wires one at a time. If you do it at idle, you're really only checking the idle circuit which may or may not be your problem at running speeds. You can raise the idle artificially by either holding, blocking or actually turning the bottom idle screw (moves all four carbs idles at same time), but remember where it was at originally (#turns). I wouldn't exceed about 1200 rpms with mickey mouse ears for cooling though. At 1200 you're on the edge of getting out of the idle circuit and into the intermediate/run circuit (through the main jets). You're learning a lot I see...every problem seems to have a slightly different twist to find the problem. Good luck (I've been out boating for past 3 days, just catching up).
 
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