This is one of the last little things on my "To Do" list before the boat is ready to launch. The main eye bolt in the bow of the boat that the trailer line attaches to is loose. Not a wiggle, waggle loose like it's going to fall off but notably loose. Maybe a 1/16th of an inch loose I figured that I'd have someone go inside the forward compartment and unscrew the nut on the end and I could pull it out, slop some Seika Flex on it, slide it back in and be on my merry way. Turns out that the bolt was put in prior to the installation of the floor of the forward cabin. Everything is one continuous piece with no access to what might be beneath. The imagined nut on the end of the bolt is just below the surface. To get at it I'd have to cut a hole in the floor of the cabin. Not something I'm excited about doing. This is on a 1982 Angler. I'm considering just squishing some caulk in where ever I can, wiping it off and calling it good. My main concern, obviously is that it is near the water line. Any Ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Loose eye bolt.
- Thread starter hoorenga
- Start date
Doug,
On all of the boats I have seen that's a U-bolt and not an eye bolt so I'm a bit surprised you have an eye bolt. Nonetheless, that's a pretty important component for trailering and on an rough or even undulating road, there can be a lot of stress put on that attachment point as the trailer/boat bounces around. The fact that yours is low/close to the water line also seems a bit unusual as most I have seen are a bit higher but when I look at other 16's it appears they all have U/eye-bolt pretty low (say relative to a 22).
I wouldn't just put some caulk in and assume all is good as it will likely come loose and continue to get looser due to the aforementioned tugging on it while trailering. If you really don't want to cut through the floor, one thing you might consider is to install a second one up higher (in a location where you can reach the nuts from inside). Then you could put in a proper backing plate and be assured it was good to go for any reasonable towing situation. Then you could seal the other one up and not be too worried about it. Even then, I think I'd cut the other one off and glass back over the opening to assure it's good "forever".
On all of the boats I have seen that's a U-bolt and not an eye bolt so I'm a bit surprised you have an eye bolt. Nonetheless, that's a pretty important component for trailering and on an rough or even undulating road, there can be a lot of stress put on that attachment point as the trailer/boat bounces around. The fact that yours is low/close to the water line also seems a bit unusual as most I have seen are a bit higher but when I look at other 16's it appears they all have U/eye-bolt pretty low (say relative to a 22).
I wouldn't just put some caulk in and assume all is good as it will likely come loose and continue to get looser due to the aforementioned tugging on it while trailering. If you really don't want to cut through the floor, one thing you might consider is to install a second one up higher (in a location where you can reach the nuts from inside). Then you could put in a proper backing plate and be assured it was good to go for any reasonable towing situation. Then you could seal the other one up and not be too worried about it. Even then, I think I'd cut the other one off and glass back over the opening to assure it's good "forever".
Thanks Roger. That's why this site works, I'm so dam close to my work that it's difficult to step back and see the answer. You guys are looking over my shoulder and have a better perspective. All I can see is the loose eye bolt and a big problem. Of course, putting a new one in just above the old one is answer! Not sure if I'm ready for another project yet but it will happen. Can anyone tell me what I'll be drilling through? Is it just glass and resin or is there some wood in there? Not that it matters much.
Couple of thoughts:
1) I'm with Roger in that I wouldn't just squish some caulk in. That's a component I'd want to know was "right."
2) Moving it up might be a good idea, but just to make sure you don't cause a cascade of projects (ha, that's so easy to do!), perhaps check that that would still work with your trailer winch/bowstand/launch angles.
3) If you do end up wanting to keep it in the same location, then perhaps to make cutting a hole less traumatic (or less finishing work anyway), install a ~6" round deck screw in deck plate, like Beckson, etc. make. They have a built in flange to cover up the raw edge, and then you will always be able to unscrew the cap to reach in and see the "bilge" and get to the fasteners for your U-bolt (or eye bolt).
Here is an example of what I mean. They come in various colors and smooth or textured cap. Also with a see-through cap.
I would also not take for granted that the backing is as strong as you might like it. If it isn't you could perhaps add some fiberglass, or some thickened epoxy or even fender washers (depending on what space you have back there). Not that you need Fort Knox, but, for example, the eye bolt that was supposed to hold the bitter end of my anchor rode was tiny, fastened through a weak area, and backed up by a finishing washer.... no, I don't think so!
Sunbeam
1) I'm with Roger in that I wouldn't just squish some caulk in. That's a component I'd want to know was "right."
2) Moving it up might be a good idea, but just to make sure you don't cause a cascade of projects (ha, that's so easy to do!), perhaps check that that would still work with your trailer winch/bowstand/launch angles.
3) If you do end up wanting to keep it in the same location, then perhaps to make cutting a hole less traumatic (or less finishing work anyway), install a ~6" round deck screw in deck plate, like Beckson, etc. make. They have a built in flange to cover up the raw edge, and then you will always be able to unscrew the cap to reach in and see the "bilge" and get to the fasteners for your U-bolt (or eye bolt).
Here is an example of what I mean. They come in various colors and smooth or textured cap. Also with a see-through cap.
I would also not take for granted that the backing is as strong as you might like it. If it isn't you could perhaps add some fiberglass, or some thickened epoxy or even fender washers (depending on what space you have back there). Not that you need Fort Knox, but, for example, the eye bolt that was supposed to hold the bitter end of my anchor rode was tiny, fastened through a weak area, and backed up by a finishing washer.... no, I don't think so!
Sunbeam
Absolutely agree with Sunbeam. You need to open this area up, and find out what is going on with the glass. I usually re-inforce this area--more glass, a wooden block (oak) epoxy in place, and fill the old hold, to be snug, and then tighten up the "U" or eye bolt, with fender washer'/washers under the bolt. You can put one of these pry out or screw out plates (both 4" and 6"--the 4" may be enough. You don't put the plate in until you have finished the work, so the 4" hole cut may be enough to work thru.
Where it is open, I put an small "eye" nut on the end of one of the threads to attach the bitter end of the anchor line.
Keep us informed on the project--but it should not be just caulk and go.
Where it is open, I put an small "eye" nut on the end of one of the threads to attach the bitter end of the anchor line.
Keep us informed on the project--but it should not be just caulk and go.
Well, I made the plunge and there's good news and bad news. The good news is that things are perfectly dry underneath (whew). The bad news is that the eye bolt is right to within a half an inch of the plywood floor immediately above it and besides that it's in a tight wedge of a corner. No matter how I squirm and wiggle or what type of wrench or socket setup I try, I can't get a bite on the nut. Right now I'm taking a break because my brain and body are taxed to the limit. I have a nice little round 5" round hole to look and reach through within six inches of what I'm working on but it's looking more and more like I"m going to have to open up an 1 1/2 inch hole just above the nut to access it with a socket. Any thoughts. The little inspection cover was a great idea. It will seal up nicely and look professional.
Make the cut you need. It is easy to patch plywood and glass. Make any cut with as fine a saw as you have--if you have one of the Fein type of saws use that. If not you can even drill/ cut out any material you need, and then fill it later with a plug--just fair and taper the edges. Using epoxy and glass the repair will be as strong as it was before.
I know the frustration --will a universal joint on a short socket, with an extension to the ratchet handle help to get to the nut and turn it.
I know the frustration --will a universal joint on a short socket, with an extension to the ratchet handle help to get to the nut and turn it.
I'm having a hard time understanding about this "floor in the forward cabin". I just went out and looked at our boat, a '93 16 angler. I opened the wooden door and hatch to that forward space and all my stuff just sits on the inside of the molded hull. The anchor rhode is up in the bow and its bitter end (if that's what its called), is fastened to the inside of the u-bolt, which is in plain sight and completely accessible. . Am I missing a "floor"? If so, why would I need it in this storage area?
Well isn't that annoying! That, combined with the fact that these usually come in above flat (of... do you have a berth there or just platform or...?), makes me wonder if they just installed it a bit too low (and maybe installed it before the flat) so then just left it. Well, who knows, but anyway you've got what you've got.
I agree you will probably just have to make a hole from above (you could just cut it off outside but then you have the new one to install too, so need maneuvering room then). I don't know what the flat looks like. On my boat it is molded, cored fiberglass, but then I have a 22 with a V-berth. I agree that it's not a big deal to make a hole and then fill it, unless for some reason you are counting on that to be sealed (flotation?) in the 16? Even so you could re-fiberglass it. If perfect cosmetics are not a priority it is even easier. But one other idea if you juuuust need a hair more wiggle room: If the flat is cored, then it's probably around 5/8" or so thick. You could maybe grind out a bit from below (of the lower skin and the core) and then keep the top gelcoat/glass intact. That may not work or may not even be worth it. If you are going to make a hole and then plug it (vs. fiberglassing), you might want to source the plug first, so you can just make the hole that size to begin with. Sounds like you may be visiting the "cardboard drawers" at the hardware store
(Or Mcmaster.com is good for things like that.) 'course you may have something on hand.
Anyway, I feel for you. There is so often something like that in boat work! :amgry :cry But I know you will prevail :thup And you will have confidence in the bow eye.
Oh, one other thought: Is this really a "single stemmed" eye, or is it a U-bolt? If it's an eye is it a heavy-duty enough one? Just... once you are doing all this, if in doubt maybe a good time to change it to something better.
Glad the deck plate is going to work out well.
Sunbeam
I agree you will probably just have to make a hole from above (you could just cut it off outside but then you have the new one to install too, so need maneuvering room then). I don't know what the flat looks like. On my boat it is molded, cored fiberglass, but then I have a 22 with a V-berth. I agree that it's not a big deal to make a hole and then fill it, unless for some reason you are counting on that to be sealed (flotation?) in the 16? Even so you could re-fiberglass it. If perfect cosmetics are not a priority it is even easier. But one other idea if you juuuust need a hair more wiggle room: If the flat is cored, then it's probably around 5/8" or so thick. You could maybe grind out a bit from below (of the lower skin and the core) and then keep the top gelcoat/glass intact. That may not work or may not even be worth it. If you are going to make a hole and then plug it (vs. fiberglassing), you might want to source the plug first, so you can just make the hole that size to begin with. Sounds like you may be visiting the "cardboard drawers" at the hardware store
(Or Mcmaster.com is good for things like that.) 'course you may have something on hand.Anyway, I feel for you. There is so often something like that in boat work! :amgry :cry But I know you will prevail :thup And you will have confidence in the bow eye.
Oh, one other thought: Is this really a "single stemmed" eye, or is it a U-bolt? If it's an eye is it a heavy-duty enough one? Just... once you are doing all this, if in doubt maybe a good time to change it to something better.
Glad the deck plate is going to work out well.
Sunbeam
It's done. Thanks for all the great ideas. I couldn't have done it without you guys. I started out by cutting a 5" hole about six inches back from the very most forward point of the raised, cabin floor. That got me to where I could see what I was up against. Fortunately we were able to get a piece of a wrench on the nut on the inside. We were also fortunate in that the nut had either never been tightened down completely or it had backed out 1/4 of an inch, which was what was making the eye bolt loose. Also fortunately there had been no water penetration. We were able to push the eye bolt out enough so that we could turn it from the outside. The problem we were left with for re assembling everything was that we didn't have enough access through the new 5 inch opening to get a socket or wrench securely on the bolt holding the eye bolt. This would require another 1" hole through the raised cabin floor, just behind the nut and in line with the existing hole that the eye bolt was in. This required taking a long drill that was the same diameter as the shaft of the eye bolt and drilling from the outside of the boat through the existing hole and up through the cabin floor. This gave us a mark which we then opened up just large enough to get a socket wrench through, about one inch. From there it was an easy matter of accessing and reattaching the eye bolt. The 5" hole will be patched with a plastic access cover and I'm thinking of just screwing down a little plate over the 1" hole we made to access the bolt directly. Whew! Pictures? OK but I have to wait for the paint to dry. I just painted the cabin floor. Where's the beer?
Good going! Great to hear you have it taken care of (must have been gratifying to find that loose nut, and know that you did the right thing).
Looks like you did a nice, tidy job with the two access holes. On the smaller one, although you could easily 'glass it and make it permanently whole again, maybe it's a good idea to keep access to that nut (as you are probably thinking). So maybe something removable.
A note: Is that platform area cored? If so, and if it were me, I would take some steps to protect the core. Maybe it isn't though.
The photos made it easy to visualize how your boat is set up forward. And now I see what you mean by the eye bolt. I've seen that type in shops -- where it is sort of like a U-bolt in size but then has one stud on the back side vs. two.
Perseverance got 'er done :thup
Looks like you did a nice, tidy job with the two access holes. On the smaller one, although you could easily 'glass it and make it permanently whole again, maybe it's a good idea to keep access to that nut (as you are probably thinking). So maybe something removable.
A note: Is that platform area cored? If so, and if it were me, I would take some steps to protect the core. Maybe it isn't though.
The photos made it easy to visualize how your boat is set up forward. And now I see what you mean by the eye bolt. I've seen that type in shops -- where it is sort of like a U-bolt in size but then has one stud on the back side vs. two.
Perseverance got 'er done :thup
Not sure what you mean by 'take some steps to protect the core"? At first I thought it was hollow but once I got my hand down in there I found that it had Styrofoam in it. They used some 1/2 inch sheets of Styrofoam to box in the area and then injected the it with the spray in type, at least that's how they did it under the aft seat. It was perfectly dry. Once I get the 5" hole covered and caulked with the inspection plate and find something to cover the 1" hole with, it should be water tight again. Are you thinking of something more?
Okay, yeah, we are talking about two different detail areas.
I think you're looking at the cavity as a whole, and I believe in the 16' length, the regulations require a certain amount of built in flotation. So one way this can be achieved is to have a sealed off compartment, often foam-filled (or partially foam filled). So if you want to maintain that aspect, you will want to seal the small hole well (deck plates are commonly used as you are on the larger hole, and I think they "count" as being sealed).
What I was referring to is cored panel construction. Thing is, fiberglass is actually a pretty "floppy" material, relative to thickness and weight. So, to make it stiffer, there are a few different techniques. Examples are to make the panel areas smaller, mold in ribs or other features, support with beams, add core, etc.
On a larger flat panel (decks, for example), a cored construction is often used. This uses (if I have the physics right) the tensile strength of a bonded sandwich type panel (sort of like how an I-beam works). Balsa or foam are common core materials. So, you end up with a panel that's around 1/2" to 1" thick (on our size boats) and consists of "bread" that is two skin layers of fiberglass, and "meat" that is balsa or foam core or maybe plywood. These are bonded together with the resin when the boat is built. As long as they stay bonded you have one stiff panel. If they separate, you have three floppy ones (or two floppy and one mushy).
So of course now you have the "opportunity" to get water trapped in the core, which can cause rot, and/or de-bonding. Water can get in via holes (such as fastener holes for hardware) or at edges (like say where you cut for your deck plate IF that area is cored - and it may not be). Builders, unless semi-custom or custom, rarely seal these penetrations very well (if they do it's great).
A more minimal seal would be to paint the edges of exposed core with resin (epoxy, for example). Better is to "reef out" a certain amount of core, paint the new exposed surfaces with plain resin, and then fill back in with thickened epoxy. The latter is sufficient for most places on our boats. (Even more maximum is to close out the core by removing it back further and then bringing the inner skin to meet the outer one with new fiberglass. I did this at the transom drain area on my boat, but did the thickened fill on most areas. There is discussion of the how-to's in a few other threads, and also I believe in Thataway's photo album, Ferret30's album (I think), and maybe in my Sunbeam ~ 22 Cruiser thread.
Now, maybe that area is not even cored!
(However, I'm pretty sure your decks will be, plus the transom and the hull at least up to the V-berth and maybe further.)
Sunbeam
I think you're looking at the cavity as a whole, and I believe in the 16' length, the regulations require a certain amount of built in flotation. So one way this can be achieved is to have a sealed off compartment, often foam-filled (or partially foam filled). So if you want to maintain that aspect, you will want to seal the small hole well (deck plates are commonly used as you are on the larger hole, and I think they "count" as being sealed).
What I was referring to is cored panel construction. Thing is, fiberglass is actually a pretty "floppy" material, relative to thickness and weight. So, to make it stiffer, there are a few different techniques. Examples are to make the panel areas smaller, mold in ribs or other features, support with beams, add core, etc.
On a larger flat panel (decks, for example), a cored construction is often used. This uses (if I have the physics right) the tensile strength of a bonded sandwich type panel (sort of like how an I-beam works). Balsa or foam are common core materials. So, you end up with a panel that's around 1/2" to 1" thick (on our size boats) and consists of "bread" that is two skin layers of fiberglass, and "meat" that is balsa or foam core or maybe plywood. These are bonded together with the resin when the boat is built. As long as they stay bonded you have one stiff panel. If they separate, you have three floppy ones (or two floppy and one mushy).
So of course now you have the "opportunity" to get water trapped in the core, which can cause rot, and/or de-bonding. Water can get in via holes (such as fastener holes for hardware) or at edges (like say where you cut for your deck plate IF that area is cored - and it may not be). Builders, unless semi-custom or custom, rarely seal these penetrations very well (if they do it's great).
A more minimal seal would be to paint the edges of exposed core with resin (epoxy, for example). Better is to "reef out" a certain amount of core, paint the new exposed surfaces with plain resin, and then fill back in with thickened epoxy. The latter is sufficient for most places on our boats. (Even more maximum is to close out the core by removing it back further and then bringing the inner skin to meet the outer one with new fiberglass. I did this at the transom drain area on my boat, but did the thickened fill on most areas. There is discussion of the how-to's in a few other threads, and also I believe in Thataway's photo album, Ferret30's album (I think), and maybe in my Sunbeam ~ 22 Cruiser thread.
Now, maybe that area is not even cored!
(However, I'm pretty sure your decks will be, plus the transom and the hull at least up to the V-berth and maybe further.)
Sunbeam
It looks as if you are moving ahead well!
I assume that you put some bedding---such as 3m 4000 or 4200 around the "eye bolt" when you put it back in place.
You do want to keep any wanter out of the sealed area foreword. Even "closed cell foam" can absorb some water.. You can screw a plate over the 1" hole--or even epoxy a plug into the hole. Lots of ways to handle that.-maybe even a drain plug which screws in. But you want all of that sealed back up to be water tight.
Good going!
I assume that you put some bedding---such as 3m 4000 or 4200 around the "eye bolt" when you put it back in place.
You do want to keep any wanter out of the sealed area foreword. Even "closed cell foam" can absorb some water.. You can screw a plate over the 1" hole--or even epoxy a plug into the hole. Lots of ways to handle that.-maybe even a drain plug which screws in. But you want all of that sealed back up to be water tight.
Good going!
I now have a nice tight, solidly seated and properly bedded eye bolt. The plastic inspection plate was the answer. I was able to finish off the smaller hole in front of the inspection plate and directly above the eye bolt that I used to access the nut with a piece of a broom handle. Since the hole is not round but was cut at an angle I had to cut the broom handle at an angle to get the same oval shape. I put a little marine caulking around the edges, set it in the hole and when the caulking was dry I cleaned it up with a razor blade and some sandpaper. Now should it ever need to be accessed again it can be gotten to simply by removing the broom handle plug. Everything is nice and tidy again.
I've been lucky with this boat. Often it's not tackling a single problem that intimidates me. It's the thought of what else may be uncovered in the process that causes me to hesitate. But with boats and airplanes, you can't leave problems unsolved bcause you don't want to fall out of the sky or sink to the bottom. In a car you can just pull over to the side of the road and work on it.
hoorenga":ll481v3l said:
Isn't that so true. Since I can be a bit too persnickety, I've been trying to just ignore certain things and get launched. One of them was the door hinges, which I know are just cabinet hinges installed through the fiberglass and into the core with wood screws, and thus should really be upgraded at some point. But I wanted that point to be after doing some boating! So sure enough, this morning, while tidying up preparatory to launching, the bottom hinge works loose and I find the screws just spinning merrily in their holes :amgry And of course the screws go into core. No real good way to tape over it and get a seal I'm confident in, and the door is pretty wonky without the bottom hinge, so..... launch postponed while I fix it properly. Kind of hard to just not use the cabin door!
Not a big problem in the grand scheme of things, but we had a fun buddy-boating day planned, so now I'm kicking myself temporarily. Oh well, I have the tools and supplies to fix it on hand (knew it would need it, but was hoping not right now). Let's see how efficient I can be
