Lewmar 700 Pro (horizontal) windlass install note (hole cut)

[Sunbeam]

I'm in the process of installing (or rather "planning") a Lewmar 700 Pro (horizontal) windlass. Although, I tell you, after lugging that thing up to the foredeck and looking at how big it is, how clean the foredeck is now, etc.... I had second thoughts! But I just have to think back to Jay (Hunky Dory) anchoring his boat by standing back with a remote control in hand and then I "re-want" it

Anyway, after laying out all the parts and pieces, I came up with a question: The installation manual calls for a 3" round hole (for the "deck pipe" portion), but the hole in the bottom of the windlass -- and the gasket -- is a smaller oval. I borrowed the first two photos from Voyager's excellent album:

The hole they call for:



The shape of the gasket, which mirrors this template, and also the actual "hole" in the windlass bottom:



This is the bottom of the windlass:



If you use the 3" round hole, then a section of the gasket and that round plate will have nothing but air beneath them. Probably not a real issue, but since I don't have a 3" hole saw on hand, and could easily make a smaller, oval hole, I wondered. I couldn't see any downside (the chain seems to drop straight down, but I would probably make the oval slightly wider than that oval opening anyway*), but figured I didn't want to cause an "I must be smarter than they are" problem. My best guess was they were trying to make the hole drilling "easier."

So I put in a call to Lewmar last week. They called back today, and I asked them about it. They said that people had found it more complicated (more tools needed) to make an oval hole, and so when they slightly re-designed some of their windlasses, they decided to make them all work with one, 3" hole. All the same, all "easy."

So that answered my question. I'm going to go with an oval hole, because it's of about equal difficulty for me, and because I will like it slightly better without the "extra" hole under that plate (not sure yet if I will use the gasket or sealant -- usually I quickly toss the gasket and use good sealant, but it is a very nice gasket, so haven't decided yet).

*I did look at another C-Dory with the older windlass that required the smaller, oval hole. I wanted to see how likely the chain would be to "flare out" to the sides and possibly require a slightly wider hole. It seemed to want to drop straight down, and there was no evidence of scuffing on the side of the hole. I may add a bit of extra space anyway.

Sunbeam

 

[thataway]

I have not posted my photos of the winch install, but I use the oval, or rounded end square to be more precise. It is easy if you have the proper knowledge and tools. I did rout out the core, filled with thickened epoxy--no sign of chain slapping when we put the chain in.

I made a copy of the templet on very heavy paper to make a better templet.

I also drilled individual holes for the wires, rather than one large hole.

I ground down the non skid, and then leveled this with a thickened epoxy to make the deck area where the gasket fits level and fair for a tight seal. I used Boat life, life seal under and around the seals.

 

[Sunbeam]

Thanks for the notes, Bob. I'm thinking I'll use a smaller hole saw at each end, then connect with a jig saw; but I do have a few other tools along if needed (although ironically, no 3" hole saw).

I do plan to take down the non-skid, and also to remove all the surrounding core and replace with thickened epoxy, plus a backing plate on the inside. It's nice to hear how you did it to confirm, thanks.

Good to know the chain doesn't tend to "flare out" and need the larger hole.

Sunbeam

PS: What did you do on the inside for backing?

 

[jkidd]

Been thinking of adding the wireless to mine. It's really nice not to have to haul the anchor up by hand. To be able to control it from the bow or shore would be great.

 

[thataway]

PS: What did you do on the inside for backing?

In the past I have used a 1/4" thick aluminum backing plate. However this time, I went with 2" fender washers, plain washers and lock washers--and medium strength thread loc in the studs into the windlass. A lot of what I do now revolves around my health. I was lucky to get these projects done, when I did.

I also added a small cleat on each side, right at the outside of the gunnel, for 5/16 snubber lines. These are also backed with 4 fender washers. I'll try and get some photos of this later today.

 

[Sea Wolf]

Been thinking of adding the wireless to mine. It's really nice not to have to haul the anchor up by hand. To be able to control it from the bow or shore would be great.

Jody-

If you only want control from the bow or cockpit, consider the following:

I made my own DIY wired remote control for standing on the deck when cleaning or clearing the anchor rode so as to be able to operate it from up there, since the conventional switch is inconvenient back in the cabin when doing those things.

The wiring is exactly the same as the switch in the cabin/dash, and just piggy-backs onto that wiring at the relay terminals.

The remote switch is made up of a PVC pipe "T" fitting and three pieces of tubing. The one central longer one is where the wiring enters, and the two others house the momentary contact switches for the up and down functions. Mark them clearly so as to not confuse them. A trigger guard over the buttons would be a nice feature, as well as a hook to hang the control on the bow pulpit when using both hands on the rode. Accidental/unintended operation of the windlass could be very dangerous and result in loss of fingers, toes, or limbs, so this device must be used with great care!

The wired remote is stored along side the v-berth and brought out through the open deck hatch when needed. Alternately it can be led back through the cabin to the cockpit if desired. Always hang the control end up so you don't roll over on it at night in the sack!!!

This design works for windlasses with relay type switches in which a small current controls the relay which then sends the big time current (~40-80 or more amps) to the windlass motor. IMHO, IT WILL NOT BE PRACTICAL for some of the Lewmar (Simpson-Lawrence) smaller windlasses in which a simple rocker switch controls the windlass current directly (no relay involved), as the current draw makes the wiring size too large, and the full current draw has to go through the remote switch/control. It could be done, but size limitations and voltage drop considerations make it quite impractical.

OTOH, If you want to control the windlass from shore, wireless is the answer. How often would this be advantageous? Under what conditions?

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

Been thinking of adding the wireless to mine. It's really nice not to have to haul the anchor up by hand. To be able to control it from the bow or shore would be great.

That's what sealed the deal for me. I saw Jay using his at Powell, and how handy it was. I ordered one. I will say the wiring diagram for the remote is making me a bit cross-eyed, with all its "T" junctions. It all looked so clear and easy until I got to that part of it.

 

[BrentB]

maybe add a terminal strip (board)
useful for troubleshooting and part repalcement down the road

 

[Sunbeam]

maybe add a terminal strip (board)
useful for troubleshooting and part repalcement down the road

Now why didn't I think of that. You mean where all those "T" junctions would be over by the switches and remove receiver box, right? (I don't have foot switches, but do have the main rocker switch and the remote receiver box). That sounds like a great idea -- thank you!

Sometimes I wonder if posting about things like this (or certain bonehead moves I've made) will make everyone think (realize?) that I'm clueless, but this is the huge upside: A great idea that did not occur to me, due to lack of experience.

I'm sure Blue Sea will have a clever and tidy one for me to order

Edit: Looks like a Blue Sea 2404 would be the right one (?)

http://www.bluesea.com/products/2404/Terminal_Block_20A_-_4_Circuit

I do notice that that has #6 screws, whereas the 2504 has #8 screws. I suppose I might up-size to that one with no harm if I already have a bag of #8 heat shrink ring terminals (will have to check stock, etc.).

Sunbeam

 

[jkidd]

I haven't seen the receiver part yet but I would guess 1 hot wire, 1 negative wire, 1 for up, and 1 for down. I can parallel them all off the back of my estop and up down switch. Should be easy. Adding the extra terminal would be nice but it will also make more places for things to go wrong. Joe when I installed mine I replaced the switch with the contactor so in the future I could add more switches like you said. I single hand the boat so it would be nice to put the bow on the shore jump off and pay out the anchor set it and tighten thing up from the shore. Maybe I'm being a little lazy but I'm ok with that if it is going to save some time in the wind.

 

[BrentB]

Are you using their relay and wireless module?

That looks like the way to go!

 

[jkidd]

Are you using their relay and wireless module?

That looks like the way to go!

Yes I have their contactor and will order their wireless module. I tossed the switch that came with it and used an Allen Bradley industrial switch and estop in stead.

Here's a link to the picture I'm on my iPad right now can't get the picture to show.
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?full ... _photo.php

 

[thataway]

The wiring is very simple--and basically the same as the up and down switch--there is a PDF diagram (first diagram) which shows the positive in red, which may make it simpler:

http://www.lewmar.com/assets/img/datase ... agrams.pdf

Using a 4 point terminal block would be appropriate, and keep form using spade connection doublers on the contractor.

Cost of the remote receiver and fob is $275 to $360, depending on source.

I can see where it might be handy going stern too at Powell. Of course that depends on the beach--or lack of a beach. Hopefully no one around has a device which operates on the same frequency…(There is an "on" button on the fob). I would invasion using a wired remote as Joe suggested-- Our technique is to let out the right amount of rode, then go fast astern, and pull the motor up, hopefully the anchor line coming tight with the stern about 2 feet from the beach waterline…(Anchor is set first).

 

[BrentB]

Is the faceplacte metal or plastic?

Plastic degrades over time and wish Lewmar used metal

 

[Sunbeam]

Thataway: Thanks for the additional info on your install. I can understand exactly why you used fender washers, and I agree they will be fine. I did notice on my stock bow pulpit that some of the fender washers had dug into the gelcoat on the overhead, but I attribute this to tightening them against balsa core, whereas you have firm epoxy fill behind yours, and so they are not "crushable."

I'll probably go with a backing block, because I can and have the material on hand, but I'm sure it's overkill. Plus, unless you tie it into the topsides (which would be complete overkill on a boat our size), it's all just the same deck anyway. The load is spread with a block, but not to any additional component.

 

[jkidd]

Is the faceplacte metal or plastic?

Plastic degrades over time and wish Lewmar used metal

Mine is acrylic and is holding up well. Lewmar's was aluminum and went in the garbage with the switch. Partly because it was damaged in shipping and I didn't like their choice of switch.

 

[Sunbeam]

Of course I had to lie awake last night thinking about windlass forces. Not because I think it really matters in the case of our size boats (I think just non-cupping fender washers and epoxy annuli would be more than fine), but just because my mind enjoys thinking about things and getting how they work.

So I envisioned myself standing on deck, facing forward, and pulling in the anchor. Heels dig in, toes lift up. If the anchor were pulling back (and winning), then I could imagine my toes digging in, and my heels lifting. Plus probably mostly a force trying to drag me straight to the roller (i.e. shear force). Especially if I were only ~6" tall like the windlass.

Of course the lower skin of a cored construction is usually thinner, and too, the bottom of the windlass has a somewhat larger footprint on the top deck than the nuts on the overhead, but it made me think that the windlass might be just as likely to "dig" into the top of the deck as lift up on the bottom (?) And the main force is probably trying to pull the fasteners forward (sideways) toward the bow roller and not up very much at all. So, really, I'm not sure that in this case a big backing plate is really doing too much (not that it hurts).

Too, the backing plate does help spread load, but on our boats, there are no deck beams, nor an anchor locker bulkhead tabbed from hull to deck, so really any stress on the foredeck, even when "spread out" is still all on the foredeck, theoretically (they say) trying to pull it off the hull. It's not like our backing blocks are tied over into the topsides. So as long as there is no chance that fender washers would pull up into the bottom skin (and it seems like there would really not be much force pulling up), then... the backing plate is really sort of just "because." If the load spreading is not necessary, and the backing plate cannot actually transfer the force to any other component. I say this as a big proponent of backing plates, who would "never" "just" use fender washers (but is thinking they are probably just fine, especially on our boats). I just felt like thinking about my assumptions regarding backing plates last night.

I still do think that backing blocks on the cleats are useful, and I'm adding them. I've had times at odd docks or tides or whatever where there WAS upward force on the cleats. And you can motor in and throw a line out to "catch" you... that's got to be a lot of force (much more than the windlass, I would think?). Actually, if anything, I might be tempted to put a "backing plate" on TOP of the deck, to keep the windlass from digging into the gelcoat (and perhaps level it somewhat). Don't think I will, as I have not seen any evidence of issues with them mounted straight to the deck, but this is what started my musing... if a backing plate were necessary below, then why not on top too?

Okay, major ramble, and if anyone who understands physics (and likes explaining it to lay people) wants to chime in, by all means! As I said, I'm not actually "worried" about this in a practical sense, but I like to think about things and how they work, and I couldn't get to sleep Ironically, half of you reading probably are, now :wink

 

[Sunbeam]

Figured I had better put this in a separate entry. Since we have added electrical talk to this thread, I would like to ask about house vs. start bank for the windlass. I had been thinking (automatically) that I would hook up to the house bank, but then I read about someone running the windlass from the start bank instead (to always be used with the engine running). Hmm, maybe that makes a lot of sense? Say you are on the hook for a couple of days or more, and your house bank is down to 70% SOC. You fire up the engine and get ready to go, and then use the windlass.... on a partially "tired out" battery. And if I remember this correctly, if one has an ACR, the start battery would still be "isolated" from the engine and start battery (I forget when the relay closes again, but it would have been open the whole time at anchor). So maybe it is better to have the windlass drawing right from the totally fresh (and definitely connected to the engine charging) house battery?

I have a "cruising style" system, with a smaller, dedicated start battery, and a larger, dedicated house battery (bank), so... does this change things? Or with the engine running, does it not really matter that my start battery is smaller? (It has 580 CCA, but I'm not sure from looking at the specs how many amp hours it has in the way a house battery does, or if that matters for this application.)

Interested in what others think about which battery to attach the windlass to. Specs say it draws 35 amps.

 

[thataway]

First addressing your "physics" question. You should never be loading the windlass to more than a few hundred pounds. It is not built for that --yes theoretically it will pull 700 lbs. But why is the rule, you never pull the boat to the anchor, you break the anchor out with the boat, and use the windlass to hoist the anchor and chain up to the deck?

Deck skin. You should have put the epoxy between the two skins of the deck. This makes the area in compression safer, because you are pulling mostly on the center part which is agains the core of epoxy, bonded to the outer skins. When I had a two speed windlass which would really pull 3500 lbs, then I had a huge 3/8" aluminum plate under a large portion of deck. But that is with a boat many fold heavier and with other resistances higher than the C Dory.

You are correct, that much of the pull is forward, but also lifting upward. The windlass case takes the downward load--and is fairly broad, and strong forward.

House ve engine start. I in the C Dory's I have used house and engine start of equal size for a number of reasons. However, you should always have the engine going when you are pulling the anchor. You gave one good reason--you have a partially discharged house battery when you have been at anchor. The other is that the voltage will be higher, because of the alternator output, and thus there will be an adequate voltage presented to the windlass motor.

 

[Sunbeam]

Deck skin.... You should have put the epoxy between the two skins of the deck. This makes the area in compression safer, because you are pulling mostly on the center part which is agains the core of epoxy, bonded to the outer skins.

Just to clarify: I have not done the job yet, and putting epoxy between the deck skins is not even in question. There is no way I would not do that, ever. To seal off the core, provide fastener-tightening crush resistance, and to resist "pulling forward" shear loads. I'm actually "de-coring" all the attachments that come into the v-berth now (while I have the v-berth taped off for dust); I had already done just about everything aft of there (with the exception of the main motor bolts, which I would like to do).

I appreciate your thoughts on the deck loading vis-a-vis backing plate. At this point I may cut a small one, as I have the material on hand, but... I may just go with thick (non-cupping prone) fender washers. I will now be comfortable either way (and might as well save the weight - man that windlass is going to sink my bow already!)

You are correct, that much of the pull is forward, but also lifting upward. The windlass case takes the downward load--and is fairly broad, and strong forward.

I was just thinking about how we "all know" (me included) that backing plates are a big plus, but then what about the windlass pushing down from above (when the case pushes down). It really only has a thin contact rim. Not that it would go through the deck (clearly not), but it could point load the fiberglass. In actual fact I don't believe it will be any problem on our boats, but I was just thinking about the forces for my brain interest, and how we worry about up pull but not downward forces. Anyway, mostly just a point for the fun of figuring out how the forces work.

House ve engine start. ...you should always have the engine going when you are pulling the anchor. You gave one good reason--you have a partially discharged house battery when you have been at anchor.

I do plan to always have the engine running when using the windlass. This makes sense anyway, as if getting underway I would want to be sure I had power available to handle the boat, and if arriving the engine is on and will be used to back down.

I just wonder about the idea of putting the windlass on the start battery instead of the house. That battery is not depleted when getting underway, and the alternator is actively feeding it (whereas not sure if the ACR would have re-combined with the house battery yet - maybe it would have if the start battery is full, by definition). Is there a reason NOT to put the windlass to the start battery? I guess one might be that I don't monitor that battery, so maybe having more loads on it is less desirable from a tracking standpoint?

Thanks for the info, as always,
Sunbeam