Leaky Hatch

I just started on this project yesterday, and only had about 2 hours to work until I had to bike 33 miles around the lake to a BBQ on the east side (I didn't have to bike, it was for fun).

I figured 2 hours would be more than enough time to get the hatch off from what I've read. Wrong! The hatch was bedded extremely well, using 4200 (I'm guessing) and tightened down enough that it took 10 minutes to find a place where I could even start working a putty knife under the edge.

It took about a half hour of putty knife and hammer, beating the knife all the way around the perimeter. I also had to get underneath and hammer the putty knife all the way in to the completely filled gap between the deck and the hatch. It was only then that I could start shimming the hatch lip up and slowly pull it out.

All the balsa was dry and it was time to go so I put the hatch back down and screwed it in to keep the boat sealed until I could come back and undercut and epoxy. The only unusual feature about the hatch opening is the front 2 corners have a 5mm gap between the top FG and balsa layer, and this appears to be where the balsa is at a strange angle to fit the contour of the outer skin.

Anyway, it was supposed to be dry for a few days so I didn't bother taping plastic over the now unsealed hatch, and last night at 1am I wake up to a very energetic and rainy lightning storm! I almost made myself drive to the marina to put plastic over the hatch but the rain was short. I checked it this morning and the core is still dry. It was tempting to take a day off of work for this project while it's nice out.
 
The cushion in our berth had a water spot that matched up with the seam/gap in the hatch base. Given that other people have found balsa rot around the hatch, I wanted to check ours while I was fixing the leak.

There have been quite a few threads in the past regarding hatch resealing -- I didn't want to start another one when this thread was so recent.
 
yeah that is why I am waiting till later in the summer to do. I know I will have wet wood once i remove and want to be able to take my time removing soaked wood, and also letting it dry out nice and good before epoxy and re-bedding back in. Hoping since mine has water leak already it will come out a little easier than yours did.
 
I used a new and sharp utility knife and started scoring over and over under the lip of the hatch. It takes a lot of passes but you will end up clean slicing through the bedding material (4200?). After I was all the way through the flange part I had to go inside and slice through the hatch in the ceiling. When cut through the hatch came right out. After that I used a razor scraper to clean the rest of the caulking from the surface.

Thanks for all the helpful information everybody.

Mike
 
Well this thread got me to start a hatch repair on our TC24. I found a leak last winter and have been putting off the fix until now. I started by removing all of the chalking on the interior side. Using a utility knife and needle nose pliers this took about 2 hours with quite a mess. The core when exposed was wet. Drat! Next I started on the exterior with a chisel and rubber mallet. I haven't finished that part yet as I ran out of time. Hopefully it will finish easily.

At any rate thanks to everyone for all of their suggestions. I feel more confident in attacking this problem. And thanks for starting the thread and giving me the motivation to get going on this.
 
The method that finally worked for me (and it would have gone faster if I used this method the whole time) was to use a 1-1/2" putty knife and a hammer.

First, remove the 2 big hex screws that hold the support arms. Then open the hatch and remove the 2 inner screws on the fixed part of each hinge. This will allow you to remove the outer hatch and get better access.

Find a place where you can work the putty knife under the hatch flange -- for me, that was under the hinges. Hold the knife so it's almost parallel to the part of the flange you're working on, then use the knife to drive it all the way around, separating the flange from the gelcoat. If it gets stuck, you might be hitting the inside of the flange with the corner of the putty knife. Back out a little and start again.

When that's done, go into the berth, put the putty knife against the caulk between the fiberglass and the aluminum, and hammer it until it goes in about an inch and hits the underside of the flange. Do this all the way around (can't really do it at the corners). Cut at the corners with a utility knife.

After that's done, go back up top and start working the flange up, inserting shims as you progress (I used stacked popsicle stick pieces).
 
It sure is nice to have a dry cabin when it is pouring down rain outside.

I appreciate everybody's input.

I'm happy to report that because of all the great input, my cabin is dry!

Mike
 
Got the hatch off and removed about 2" of wet wood all around the hatch opening. Will fill with thickened epoxy in a couple of days. As a hint, on the TC24 when using a rubber hammer and chisel to break the seal, I used a shim under the chisel so that I could get a good strike on the head of the chisel.

This is fun.....I think...
 
c-ness":6xbpls47 said:
This is fun.....I think...
Click to expand...

I can empathize with that (mixed) feeling :cry It usually hits me when I'm just at the peak of the "destruction" stage, and I'm thinking dark thoughts about "A stitch in time would have saved (my) nine," etc.

On the upside, when it's done you'll know it's done right :thup
 
Sunbeam, you are so right. When I removed the hatch and found that the upper side (the TC24 has a sloped nose) had dry wood I was tempted to just let it alone. Stupid thought. I took out about the same amount of wood as I found on the wet downhill side. I just finished filling with epoxy (is there a trick to getting this stuff into a cavity other than using a tongue deprssor?) and seating the hatch. Now I know when it rains the core is not in danger. And if there is a problem, it's my fault and I can fix it. Feels good to have it done.
 
c-ness":2xlyepfl said:
I just finished filling with epoxy (is there a trick to getting this stuff into a cavity other than using a tongue deprssor?)
Click to expand...

A few thoughts:

1) If you let the neat epoxy that you "pre-painted" onto the void tack up a bit, it can help to "grab" the thickened stuff (not that this is directly your problem; just mentioning it).

2) I've used Zip-Loc freezer bags and filled them with thickened epoxy, then snipped off a corner. That makes it possible to "force" the epoxy in (think of a baker's frosting/piping cone) and is something I will likely use when I do the same on my boat's lazarette hatch openings soon*.

3) For holes or smaller spots, WEST makes syringes, but then the epoxy has to be fairly soupy.

c-ness":2xlyepfl said:
Now I know when it rains the core is not in danger. And if there is a problem, it's my fault and I can fix it. Feels good to have it done.
Click to expand...
:thup

Sunbeam

*I removed both of the lazarette hatches on my 22 Cruiser today. The good news is that there is no wet core (boat was stored in a rack building); the bad news is, I would trade that for what it does have :cry First of all, the hatches were "bedded" in silicone, so I have that hassle/contamination to deal with (they were also a bear to get loose); second, on both hatches one of the long sides was cut out too large, so I have limited options on how to position the new (Imtra) hatches unless I build up the "big" edge with new material. About 99% sure I'll do the latter, although I'll take another look once I get the bulk of the silicone off and can see things more clearly. Digging out wet core would be easier, so I would trade that for a properly sized hole and actual bedding compound that is removable :x
 
so looking like the weather is here to do the hach. i am going with system three general purpose epoxy and hardener.

my question is there is two different hardeners to choose from. the first can be used as low as 35deg. but has a gel time of 15 min. the second one has to be 55 deg. but has a gell time of 30 mins.

the first one has a tack time of 2 hours where the second is 4-6 hours. is one better than the other?

thanks again to everyone with the tips and help with epoxy I have a feeling this project will go good and will be back to dry in a week or so..
 
Neither is "better". Use the one that matches the weather and the time you think you've got to work with it. Mix a little bit the first time and try it.

Charlie
 
Jake B":3jag2qgm said:
my question is there is two different hardeners to choose from. the first can be used as low as 35deg. but has a gel time of 15 min. the second one has to be 55 deg. but has a gell time of 30 mins.
Click to expand...

I've been doing epoxy work in the past weeks in the Puget Sound area, and I've been using the System Three "medium" #2 hardener (Fisheries has it, for one). The "fast" would be challengingly quick in the current warm weather, and while the "slow" might be nice over the next couple of days, it would normally be pretty slow around here. I have been happy with the medium just by using a bit of common sense (no larger pours or bigger batches in the heat of the extreme days, etc.). The slow would be really slow in the normally cooler weather here. So in short, I'd recommend the medium with the caveat that if you have to use it in the mid-day heat of the next couple of days, you might prefer slow. (And the slow would work at any time; it just gets really slooow.) One secondary consideration when choosing hardener speed is what your schedule looks like and how that affects the window of time you have for making the "green stage" cutoff.

Note, too, that you can mix hardeners (of the same brand/type), so say you had some fast and slow in the System Three you could make medium. Still, for what you have in mind I'd likely just get medium (until cool/"winter," when fast would work better).

Some tips for working on hotter days:

1) Try not to do your epoxying when the receiving part of the boat is heated up in direct sun.

2) Spread your epoxy out as soon as you can (vs. keeping it in a deep, narrow cup).

3) Have a spot in mind in case you need to toss an overheating cup (on the ground).

4) Don't be tempted to keep working with the epoxy once it starts to kick (slightly warm is okay, but not actually kicking/gelling).

5) If you really need to, you can put your container of mixed epoxy "on ice" (like a bottle of champagne :mrgreen: ) to slow things down, but it generally works fine just to get it spread out or in a wider/shallower container.

6) If you need to make any really thick/deep fills, keep in mind that an overly thick area can get rather hot when kicking and can sort of "foam" (weakening it), and, worse, expand. It can even deform an area you are working on if it really gets going (say, spread the two skins). If you do have an area like that, you can do it in two passes, catching the second one in the green stage (gelled enough to not pull out when you spread the new stuff; but still green for a prep-free chemical bond). I find an infrared thermometer to be a handy tool to get a feel for what you have going on. For example, a week or so ago I had a slightly deeper area to fill (back-cutting for the replacement lazarette hatches and building up one side to better fit the new hatches). I thought I could do it in one "pour" but was slightly apprehensive that it would get too hot. I kept an "eye" on it with the infrared thermometer (just a cheapie from the auto parts store). The area I had filled never got over 70º (it was kicking at night), so that was just fine, and the container of leftover thickened epoxy (was thicker than my pour by about double) got up to 114º. Watching the temps like this can help you to develop a feel for the various hardeners, thicknesses, weather, etc. It would be possible to, say, direct a hose of cold water on an area if you had to, but of course best not to go there.

I imagine you are going to be thickening it; if so remember to first use a bit of the "neat" epoxy to wet out any surfaces you are later going to put thickened into (you can simply decant a bit of the neat and then go on and mix the thickened, or, if you are not rushed by heat, you can take the time to "paint" the neat on where it's ultimately going.

I'll be joining you in the joys of epoxying over the next few days :? I drilled out a number of (existing) fastener holes in the transom and swim platform yesterday and today I hope to get the holes for the (to be added) trim tabs ready; then I'll be filling them all with thickened epoxy and later re-drilling any I plan to re-use. Happily, I found no wet core in the transom.

Here's to a successful jump into the world of "goo" :thup

Sunbeam :hot
 
and just one final note/question would it be better to use a structural or general product? I was going to order general but then saw the t-88 structural line? i anticipate removing 2-3" of wet wood...
 
Jake B":3laz73rt said:
and just one final note/question would it be better to use a structural or general product? I was going to order general but then saw the t-88 structural line? i anticipate removing 2-3" of wet wood...
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I just had a (brief) look at the System Three website because I'm not familiar with T-88.

http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf
It looks like it's slanted more towards a structural adhesive use, for glue-ups/joints and such, so I would say you wouldn't want or need it for this job. I'm actually not sure if they even mean for it to be used with fillers (which you want to use), but even if they do (I'd have to have spent more time on the site), it still doesn't seem ideal for your job. It also looks like it's meant for "tough" jobs like gluing (non-fiberglass) plastics.

So... without doing more research, I believe I'd stick with the "regular" resin and fillers. Another plus with them is that you have something pretty versatile, and can go from gluing up joints to filling to fairing to fiberglassing just by modifying your ingredients slightly.

Sunbeam
 
well this weekend was the weekend to fix hach. good news is hach slid right out once un screwed. bad news was very bad water intrusion. took 3-4 hours sat. digging out wet rotten wood. thankfully the three sides were only 1.5" thick. the back section to the windshields I removed about 7" deep of rotten wood. Cleaned it all all out and let it sit in the sun all day and overnight to "dry" out. next day spent about 10 hours or so mixing and filling with epoxy some c clamps to hold together to get rid of the drooping caused by sagging from wet wood. let sit then today reset it in a bed of 4000. a big project for my first time messing with epoxy but took my time and it turned out great looks like new. the best part no more sagging in the cuddy. and knowing its done right and no more rotten wood.

biggest lesson I learned about epoxy is it can be really messy even though I was very prepared for it, I was still impressed with how it gets on everything.

thanks again for all the help here!
 
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