Kicker?

P

Pat Anderson

New member
OK, we were going to go with a single 150 and towing insurance on the new Daydream 25, no kicker...but LunaC Chris and Janet's tale of rescuing a SeaSport about to be washed onto the rocks disclosed the flaw in our plan. Even though none of our cars have left us stranded for the last 20 years or so, and the Honda is very reliable, it was made by man and therefore it can and will fail eventually, and when it does, we REALLY don't want to be dashed to pieces in the surf or on the rocks. So the need for a kicker is firmly implanted in our minds now.

But we don't really fish, so trolling is not an issue. We don't need it to get us home from some far away place. We don't need (I think) to be able to control it from the helm. What we need, it seems to me, is a kicker to get us out of trouble if the main motor conks out, and to get us to the closest safe cove until Vessel Assist arrives.

Soooo, (A) am I wrong about what I think I need a kicker for, and (2) how little kicker can I get away with for that purpose? How about a little 9.9 hp Tohatsu short shaft hung off a bracket? I think that is about half the price or less of the usual 15 hp Honda four stroke, all wired up and tied to the helm steering, etc. How little kicker can I get away with, or why will I be sorry if I don't spend the big bucks on the Honda BF15 and an EQ Marine install?

 
Pat,
For me, the added security of having a kicker is worth the price. I've haven't yet needed the kicker because the main quit, but it sure makes me feel more secure knowing its there and it runs well and can push the boat to 5-6 kts. IMHO If you do choose a kicker, don't cheap out. Go with something that can push the boat well and is easy to start and use. (not to mention looks good). The thing is though, its pretty unlikely that the kicker is going to be neccessary to prevent you from hitting the rocks if the main fails. Unless you run out of gas, in which case the kicker probably is out of gas as well if its plumbed to the main tank, you probably will have some warning that the engine is having problems. You also have the anchor which can hold you until help arrives and have the VHF to get help from good folks like Luna-C. :lol: If you aren't fishing and are mainly boating in areas with lots of other boats, the kicker probably isn't needed.
Ron
 
Pat 9.9 hp would be okay but sure a short shaft would work.

Think of it this way. In a bad situation such as staying off the rocks you could have wind, waves and current to contend with. Two things need to happen in a hurry if the main should quit. First the kicker needs to instantly start, second you need enough hp to overcome the elements heading you toward the rocks. So do you want a economical solution or one you know will work if things go wrong.

Steering controls are another matter it's tough to see over the roof from the tiller of the kicker but yet to find a good solution that will work with my OMC drop down bracket. In calm weather the main makes a good rudder and you can steer with it.

just some thoughts
stevej
 
Pat,

Here's a question or three.

Are you going to be comfortable with calling on outside help if your main motor quits? And waiting for that help to arrive while drifting or anchored? Or do you want to be able to deal with your problem on your own?

If you carry a kicker, will you test start it each time you go boating? And if you don't start it each time, will it start when needed? If the kicker is a 2 stroke, how often will you replace the unused mixed gas in its tank?
 
Had a recommendation that sounds pretty good this morning on my ham radio net, from a guy who has a couple of sailboats. He says a 9.9 hp would push a 25 along just fine, not going to plane with either a 9.9 or a 15...he would get a Yamaha electric start four stroke with a separate fuel tank. Electric start four stroke means it is going to start when you need it to. I like the separate fuel tank, as Bill and El have experienced problems with water in the fuel, and that is why they have each motor on a separate tank. On the short shaft and bracket - that is what Jim put on the new Laurna Jo, and my thought is that this is the best combo to get the motor completely out of the water. Finally, if as SteveJ says, the main makes a good rudder for steering from the helm, then isn't this a good program all around?
 
I think any single engined boat that ventures out into the ocean should have a kicker. I would never in a million years get an electric start kicker. When things go south, I want SIMPLE, seperate and reliable...that means rope start. If you lose electrical power, your kicker won't even make a good anchor...get a manual start. They are easy to get going. We just purchased a new Yamaha 4 stroke and it starts on the first pull. I would also go with a separate gas tank for the kicker...again, I want a totally seperate system for my back up. Just my 2 cents, but I fly on helicopters for a living, and back up stuff is a good idea!
 
I played around with a short shaft kicker on a Bayliner 27 a few years ago. Slightly longer boat than a 25 CD, but narrower. Similar wetted area and weight. More V to the hull, though.

The kicker needs to have the cavitation plate and prop low enough to get a free flow of water off the bottom of the boat. I was not able to achieve that without almost submerging the power head. Any waves beyond a ripple threatened to douse the kicker.

If I raised it a bit, it cavitated because it was shielded by the transom.

A long shaft would have worked better.

As they say in the commercials, your experience may vary...Something to consider, though.

I'm going with the 150 and 15.

Don
 
As above, the prop needs to be clear of the hull, especially if reverse is needed sometime. I'd say sizewise, 9.9 or more. If you don't think you're going to use it much, you could use a 2 stroke, to lighten the load you are carrying. They tend to be cheaper these days. However, I would match your main motor for continuity. I think pride in our boats would make my last comment a "MUST". Ron

That said, my honda kicker still looks ok alongside the yamaha main.
 
Pat,

If you need a get-home motor only and wind,waves or current are not a concern, then any long shaft motor on a bracket should work. We fish our 25 off the Oregon coast and the extra displacement of the 15 Honda, extra long shaft, swinging a larger power thrust prop makes the difference for us. Control of the boat is effortless even in demanding conditions.

Be aware that the trim tabs on the 25 can interfere with the operation of a kicker mounted on the transom (you need an offset bracket, Mini-jacker is the brand we have, to clear the tabs). I would trust Les's advice given your needs, he seems to have a clear vision of what works best with these boats.
 
Pat,

Told this old story before, but I've come from Bamfield to Cornet Bay with a 26' Stamas (heavy boat) when the outdrive broke - powered by a 9.9 Honda (the old one, which is now the 8 HP Honda). That's nearly 200 miles... the new 9.9 would be better - either Yamaha or Honda - but I have mixed emotions about the electric. Of course you can rope start the electric, but if it isn't going to start manually, probably won't start on electric. BTDT.

The new 4-stroke kickers are kind of a PITA because you MUST start them quite often or they won't run! Also BTDT. That's why I use the "classic" 8 Honda. One pull, and away you go. A 9.9 with a separate tank, using Staybil (or some other stabilizer) is probably a good option. I don't have a kicker on C-Salt, but will hang one on if I'm going offshore.

HTH,

Dusty
 
Pat -

So many choices and so many reasons for all of them.....

The TyBoo has a Honda 15 electric with the extra long shaft that hangs right on the transom. I used it once through necessity right up there in your home waters when I lost the prop (or a chunk of it) on the main.

If I were buying a new one:

  • I would probably skip the electric start because it actually starts quicker with the rope. But since it's there, I have a dedicated battery for it that is not connected to the other batteries. I use an Optima sprial wound because it will sit for longer periods without losing much. I figure if I ever need a jump for the main, I can swap a cable to it in a jiffy. That's a help to the peace of mind.

    I would get the 15hp again. It pushes the 25 around at about the same clip and with the same authority as the Honde 8 pushed the TyBoo22. It won't tow no waterskiers, but you know you got control of the boat.

    I would get the extra long shaft again. By moving the stop pin up one hole, I was able to get the kicker to clear the larger trim tabs I put on. Even with it up a notch, there is still a whole bunch of it in the water and it always gets a bite. When tipped fully up, it completely clears the water. Remember that the transom on the 25 is closer to vertical than the 22, so the old "have to have a bracket to keep it out of the water when cruising" curse is lifted.
But that's just me, and I am by no means an authority on this boat stuff.

I don't use the kicker for trolling much because I am always in the river with its currents. But I can see me using it for some of the backwater sloughs and channels we plan to explore around here. The draft of the 25, while a little more than the 22, is still shallow enough to let you go to places where the big boats can't go. The big Honda has a bunch of itself in the water, but the kicker needs less.
 
For convenience, having the kicker and main use the same fuel is great, especially if the kicker is used a lot for trolling, but for backup use only, a 2-stroke is lighter, smaller, and costs less.

I only use my kicker (8 hp 2-stroke) as a backup, so I keep a 2 gal gas tank of mixed fuel for it. If I need to use it for a longer run home, I carry quarts of 2-stroke oil so that I can add the oil to the gas in the main tanks and use the main motor gas hose. When the 2-stroke gas mix in the 2 gal tank gets old, I recycle it by using it in my van.

This system allows me to use a lighter, smaller, 2-stroke motor for backup and not get stuck with a 6 gal tank of old mix gas.
 
Pat,
My experience with two smaller boats: using the big motor as a rudder just does not work unless there is no wind and waves. Any little disturbance will be more than you can overcome with the rudder effect. Another thought, if you ever do any near shore lolly-gagging along the kicker would be a good way to do it. Hook it up with a tie-bar, set an easy throttle speed and enjoy the scenery. Very quiet, saves hours on the big engine and insures that the kicker will work if you need it.
 
OK, cool - now we are going from a short shaft with a bracket to an extra-long shaft with no bracket - all I want is for it to clear the water when cruising with the main! If I can hang an XL shaft directly on the transom, rope start, separate fuel tank, with tie to main for steering, now THIS sounds like the way to go!
 
Choices, choices, choices..... The one on the left is the 15hp model.

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Pat, you can also get it serviced wherever Nissan outboards are serviced. The only difference between Nissan and Tohatsu in the smaller outboards is the decal.
 
Another good thread with a lot of thoughtful information. We're getting a Honda 90 on our 22 and a Honda BF8A kicker.

Yes, modern four strokes are reliable and most dealers to whom I've talked mentioned that we don't need a second engine because that's what towing insurance, a VHF and a cell phone are for. Having been in the marine industry, also selling boats, I know that a lot of salesmen have very little practical experience when it comes to cruising or long term use of a boat.

In my sailing days, there were a number of situations where an engine had died on me and I was able to dock or anchor under sail. I personally don't have the inclication to rely on someone else to be there when I am in trouble. Also, those failures could come in remote areas or in times when others are also having trouble, putting us way down on the list.

In having a similar discussion with El and Bill via email, they mentioned that twice they had an engine fail in potentially life-threatening condtions. Their second 40 HP engine pulled them through.

Nick
Valkyrie
 
Pat,
I went through this same thought process and ended up putting a kicker on our 25 last year. I was in a narrow deep steep to channel in Clayoquot Sound in September of 2003. I didn't have a kicker and the thought occurred to me, what would I do if the main motor conked out. I was in current and wind, too deep to anchor, no other boats, and a limited chance for VHF reception. You aren't going to paddle a 25 to shore, so with no backup you are at the mercy of the current and wind.

I ended up having Les put a 15 Honda on the boat last spring. You've gotten a lot of good advice, some of it that would work for you. I do give the caution that Les had to put a lot of thought into this as it was the first 25 he'd put a kicker on. He works on boats every day and there were some issues to deal with, not dragging the motor when it is up and avoiding problems with the trim tabs being the most critical. He felt we had to go with a long shaft and a bracket. I went with a 15 hp long shaft, high thrust Honda. It has electric start and power tilt. I also added the Troll Master to allow attachment to the main motor and control from the helm. Regardless of which motor you choose I would recommend the Troll Master. It is easy to install and inexpensive. It allows you to steer and control speed from the helm. I don't think you really want to be away from your electronics and the view from the helm if you need to use the kicker in bad weather.

As someone else said on here, I don't think that you need the electric start (my motor has the manual start also and it is easy), or the power tilt. Those are just convenience options that cost extra. A basic two or four stroke 9.9 or 15 would work fine. But I would be very careful about buying a short shaft or no bracket. Les needed both the long shaft and the bracket to make the kicker work on my boat.

We plumbed the kicker so that it can run off of either the main tank or a 5 gallon tank that I have. I haven't had problems with bad gas but I have heard that it is one of the main things that can take down your main motor. If that happens I can plug the kicker into the 5 gallon tank and not have to worry about bad fuel.

It is an expensive option, but on a boat what isn't. It gives us the peace of mind of knowing that we can get back if our main gives out. It also functions as a trolling moter, but I use it less than I thought I would for fishing. I find that the 130 idles down low enough for the downrigger fishing that we do, so the 15 wasn't critical for fishing.
Lyle
 
Pat,

Good decision on getting a kicker :).

Was headed out to the crabbing hole on the bay when we wrapped up in the line of a crab pot some idiot had left right in the middle of the channel. Would not have been so bad, but the tide was really moving and the wind was kicking up 3' waves. If we did not have the kicker we would have surely been blown into shore. I was able to cut the pot free and the kicker got us back to the dock as the main prop had been damaged.

Jon
 
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