Is broadband rader the way to go?

[GxK]

I haven't owned a boat equipped with radar since 1989 so consider myself a newbie. Thinking of taking the TomCat, in a year or two, into cruising areas where fog is a factor.

After a few days of poking around here and on other forums, 4G Broadband Radar by Lowrance/Simrad seems to be worthy of a closer look.

Those of you with radar experience, what say you?

--Georgs

 

[tsturm]

I haven't owned a boat equipped with radar since 1989 so consider myself a newbie. Thinking of taking the TomCat, in a year or two, into cruising areas where fog is a factor.

After a few days of poking around here and on other forums, 4G Broadband Radar by Lowrance/Simrad seems to be worthy of a closer look.

Those of you with radar experience, what say you?

--Georgs

I just replaced a 03 era, Simrad. After reading looking & talking with the local area radar expert, I went with a stand alone Furuno 1715. With the extra data cable it displays all my nav. data. You can spend a whole lot more $$ and not get any better performing product.
Have a good one!!

 

[Foggy]

Stick with a name brand like Garmin, Furuno, Raytheon or Simrad and
you can't go wrong. Spend most of your time knowing how to use it
and knowing how to read the screen, not on the technology behind it
(4G, broadband etc).

Some feel "stand alone" units are the way to go not being NMEA'd to
other nav functions while others prefer everything connected.

Pay your dollar(s) and collect your prize.

Aye.

 

[20dauntless]

I have a 4G Broadband Radar. After using it for a year, I have mixed feelings.

It's very good close in. I could navigate through my marina in 0 visibility with it. Unless water conditions are absolutely calm, though, it doesn't reliably pick up crab pot buoys. It does a good job of picking up kayaks.

Somewhere around 4-6 nm it really starts struggling compared to a traditional radar. At 36 nm, its max range, it doesn't pick up anything (even Vancouver Island) reliably.

The automatic settings are really, really, good. Kevin Monahan, author of The Radar Book, was on my boat last summer for several weeks. Even with decades of experience tuning radars, he struggled to do better than the automatic settings.

The real weakness, in my mind, is performance in heavy rain. It simply doesn't have enough power to penetrate downpours.

Oh, and MARPA never has worked. Simard doesn't have a fix. Not a huge loss (VRM EBL works for me) but its frustrating that they'd release a half baked product. Actually, there are quite a few software glitches. Periodically the system won't recognize the radar when it boots up. A few reboot cycles clears this up. Simard really needs to focus on getting the software right rather than releasing new products all the time.

 

[Aurelia]

We have used Garmin HD and now xHD RADAR and we do like the new unit better. I agree with Sam on challenges in the rain and that is the only time I make a manual adjustment to improve the range picture for myself. The auto settings do great the rest of the time and we really only use the shorter (less than 2 miles) range so I can't speak to the usefulness of longer range use.

We like the added detail and colors used to show intensity and sort out sizes and densities of objects. We really enjoy using it to point us toward small items in the water as we cruise slowly along especially in calm water. It shows birds, sticks, small floats, logs, and clumps of junk plus many more interesting objects as well. We also play the guessing game with both Cindie and I looking at the display guessing what it will be as we approach it from the RADAR return. We are getting better....

I would not personally change a good, working, non-broadband unit out for a new one but if purchasing new, I think the broadband is worth it for most cruising boaters at this point. Assuming you will have a compatible device to view it on vs. a device that can't support a broadband unit.

On the other hand, I have had good success selling working older gear and investing those dollars in an upgrade for my use. (insert brand name) to Garmin conversions is my personal specialty for now. I have trusted my well being to the brand so many times I can't count them at this point. But most brands have strengths and get the job done.


Greg

 

[hardee]

On SleepyC, I use my radar ALL the time. If th OB's are running, the radar is on. It can see 360 degrees, and the more I have it on the easier it is to be comfortable with it when, for some reason, weather or light, my eyes can't see out.

I do not have HD, and rarely make manual adjustments. I am running an 05 Raymarine system onto a C120 Classic plotter. Normally I use a pattern where I have radar overlay onto one half of my screen, over a chart. Also, I rarely run the radar at over 6 miles, and almost never over 12 miles. At the speed I am traveling, 6 miles, is a plenty good buffer. In that space, there is plenty of time to find someone out there who is aiming at me. (That would ba a tin boat, 12 - 16 feet, running at 20 knots, and following a GPS track.) Using it down at 3 miles or less, it is pretty good at finding kayaks, or other small non metalic craft. On one occasion I spotted a guy in an innertube boat, fishing off Port Williams. In crossing Juan de Fuca, I usually run it at 12 miles, and in conjunction with the AIS, I am comfortable crossing in fog. There I run a 12 mile screen and a 3 mile screen, both with radar overlay on the chart.

In a marina, I'm not sure I could spot a single piling, but when I dial it in to 1/8 or 1/4 mile, I can see the dock. I use it ni that range for measuring distance to other boats when anchoring, or to shore for scope length determination.

Would I upgrade to HD. Can't say for sure, but if I did not have any radar, would I really be looking at adding something.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[rogerbum]

I have the Lowrance 3D radar on the Tomcat and used to have a stand alone Furuno 1712 on my previous boat. Like Sam, I'm in love with the resolution in the short ranges but wish I had somewhat better performance at the longer ranges. In the <4mile range it's an excellent radar and to be honest, that's the range where I need it the most - e.g. to avoid others while fishing. I often run it in the 1-2 mile range. After tweaking a few settings, I have very good sensitivity and I can adjust as needed on rainy days etc. I can now see big flocks of birds within a mile or two of me.

For the longer ranges like even 8 miles - I need a fairly big boat to pick it up - but to be fair, some of that is limited by the curvature of the earth. In really close up settings - like navigating out of a marina in thick fog, I can see individual pilings that I would never have been able to see on my older Furuno unit.

As for a stand alone vs an integrated system - once I got a good heading sensor installed and can overlay the radar on the chart plotter, I'll NEVER go back to a stand alone radar. The benefit of being able to correlate returns with fixed objects like buoys, land and even underwater contours is huge. I have a second, smaller chart plotter installed should the larger one fail and I can move the radar cable over to it if need be. This solves the redundancy problem that most are trying to solve with a stand alone unit (if the radar itself fails - either system is screwed).

 

[GxK]

Thanks to all who have responded to my inquiry about broadband radar. Lots of points pro and con.

Is everyone running 18-inch radomes? Is 24 inches simply too big?

Is an open array out of the question on boats as small as ours?

The Garmin GMR 18 HD Radom has caught my eye, in poking around the web. Anyone with direct experience with this beauty?

--Georgs

 

[rogerbum]

Thanks to all who have responded to my inquiry about broadband radar. Lots of points pro and con.

Is everyone running 18-inch radomes? Is 24 inches simply too big?

Is an open array out of the question on boats as small as ours?

The Garmin GMR 18 HD Radom has caught my eye, in poking around the web. Anyone with direct experience with this beauty?

--Georgs

Mine is the 19" Lowrance unit. I don't think Lowrance makes a 24" radome. As for an open array, I'd love one for the increase resolution it can provide at greater ranges but I don't think they're worth the extra $2k-3k.

 

[Aurelia]

On our first C-dory we had the Garmin GMR 18HD and that was a good unit but now after running the XHD version, I would recommend it for the added features for an additional 400 dollars. So long as your display is compatible, Go for the XHD if starting from scratch anyway.

"The GMR 18 xHD delivers higher resolution than Garmin’s previous generation 18" dome radars. New Dynamic Auto Gain and Dynamic Sea Filter continually adjust to your surroundings, providing optimal performance in varying conditions. Choose from multiple levels of aggressiveness or use manual gain adjustment. Dual range and dual speed operation allows fully independent split-screen display of far and close radar views in full 8-bit color (select chartplotters); range of 48 nm. "No Transmit Zone" protects areas behind the radar from being radiated while providing full forward-looking radar capability. This makes installation more flexible by providing more suitable installation options on your boat."

The 18 inch domes are a fine fit and most common for smaller size cruising boats. The larger domes and open units do eat up more space and couple that with dinghys and other items on rooftops and the real estate gets small really fast.

Greg

 

[GxK]

As for an open array, I'd love one for the increased resolution it can provide at greater ranges but I don't think they're worth the extra $2k-3k.

Thanks for the dose of reality, Roger. Daydreaming is sweet but eventually it will come down to money in the pocket and space available on the boat.

Thanks, Greg, the Garmin 18 xHD is certainly at the top of my list of candidates along with the Simrad Broadband 4G.

Until the Toronto boat show rolls around in January, where I will be able to see and touch all the candidates at first-hand, I plan to keep an eye on radar discussions here and on other forums. A rough timeline would have me make a decision by February so installation can take place while the TomCat is on the hard for the winter. That would give me a full season of getting to know the equipment before the possible start on the Down East Circle Route in 2017.

Much appreciate the input from everyone who chimed in on this thread.

--Georgs

 

[BrentB]

Thank you for information. It is very useful

 

[thataway]

Georgs, congratulations on the planed cruise!

I put a Garmin 24" HD Radar (Used unit from another C Brat who went to an open Garmin scanner on a C Dory 25). It can be done, but I personally don't think it is worth taking up the cabin top space.

I strongly considered the Lowrance/Simrad BB G3/G4 units. Certainly for close objects they are magnificent. However the latest Furuno and xHD Garmin are close at short range, and far better at long range.

The Garmin HD Radar is better than the several 1715 Furuno I have owned in the last few years. But, I felt that I needed a 10" scanner to get the height I needed to have a comparable display. The 1040xs, has the 10x second GPS/GLASNOS update, so it works in native fashion to allow overlay on the chart plotter, even at planing speeds. There is another feature of the 1040 xs, and that is the down vu, as well as side scan if you want, and CHIRP. I find the built in down view is great in looking at the bottom before anchoring, as well as fish and structure finding.

If you don't already have at least an AIS receiver, I would strongly recommend it, and if possible a class B transceiver for the trip.

 

[GxK]

Georgs, congratulations on the planed cruise!

Glad to see you chime in, Bob, as I much respect your viewpoint. Technically, I am not yet "planning" to do the Down East Circle Route. I'm just "thinking" about it.

The Garmin GPSMAP 840xs Chartplotter/Sonar is my lead candidate at the moment. The unit size of the 1040xs--14" wide and 9" tall--might simply be too big for my TomCat 24 helm. Yes, it would be nice to have a 10-inch display but the 8-inch display may be adequate.The unit size of the 840xs is 11.5" wide and 7.4" tall. The 840 pretty well has the same features you cited for the 1040.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-CA/CA/on-the-water/fishfindergpscombos/gpsmap-840xs/prod138028.html

When I have a chance to see the two models side by side, I will be able to tell which will work best for me, my eyes and my helm console. Assuming no other brand or model rises to the top of my short list.

My thinking at moment is to pair the plotter with a Garmin GMR 18 xHD Radome Radar.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-CA/CA/prod86235.html

I realize there may be less expensive brands out there but I love the Garmin features, the Mac connectivity and the fact that Ben Ellison of Pando.com has good things to say about the 840xs and the 18 xHD. Your comments help, too.

Which leads me to the question of acquiring a radar arch. Bob and others, is an arch and the slight gain in height worth an extra $1,000?

And, yes, Bob, an em-trak B100 AIS Class B Transceiver is on the list. The Admiral fell in love with AIS during several foggy days in Maine this summer when we cruised with Bruce and Joan Kessler aboard Spirit of Zopilote. Fog will be a factor for a good portion of the intended route.

--Georgs

 

[thataway]

Which leads me to the question of acquiring a radar arch. Bob and others, is an arch and the slight gain in height worth an extra $1,000?

Thanks Georgs. Yes, the 840xs does have all of the same features. Do a mock up, and see how both of the sizes fit at the helm. At first, I thought that the 10" was too large, but then I put it in place, and it did not obstruct my vision. (I also have a 740s and a 540s on the "dash'.)

I have used my "commode mount" for radars, which may be very close to the roof. (Using standard WC parts from Home Depot), In the current installation, the strut came with the radar, so it put the radar above the dinghy. I have not used a Radar arch on a C Dory, and for me, the only reason would be to put a dinghy under it, get antennas off the roof, and out of the way, and put on fishing rod holders (also can work as an additional hand hold). The gain in height is not worth the $1000.

Commode mount on the C Dory Tom Cat 255:

 

[hardee]

GxK wrote:

"...The Garmin GPSMAP 840xs Chartplotter/Sonar is my lead candidate at the moment. The unit size of the 1040xs--14" wide and 9" tall--might simply be too big for my TomCat 24 helm. Yes, it would be nice to have a 10-inch display but the 8-inch display may be adequate.The unit size of the 840xs is 11.5" wide and 7.4" tall. The 840 pretty well has the same features you cited for the 1040. "

GxK, NO it really won"t be too big. I have a Raymarine C120 or 12 inch at the helm on a CD 22 Cruiser. And it fits, And no, it does not block my view, and no, I am not 6'10" either. Is it big, yes, but I run 2 charts in vertical orientation on it all the time, (one in close and one out at 6 miles usually) and they fit. I have never heard anyone say they wished they had a smaller screen. I have heard it said something like, WOW, wish I could see that on my screen, or Gee, I wish my screen was bigger. Another friend says, "Invest in real estate, it is always worth it."

"...And, yes, Bob, an em-trak B100 AIS Class B Transceiver is on the list. The Admiral fell in love with AIS during several foggy days in Maine this summer when we cruised with Bruce and Joan Kessler aboard Spirit of Zopilote. Fog will be a factor for a good portion of the intended route. "

I first started using an AIS receiver, several years ago, Wonderful invention. And I often have fog covering in some of my journey. AIS is great, but do not rely entirely on it in the fog. In no way is every boat on the water sending you an AIS signal. It is a great tool fur use with the vessel that do have it, but actually, most don"t.

AS to needing an arch. Not really, a pedestal will do fine unless you are looking for rod, light, and other holders to mount on it as well.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[GxK]

NO it really won"t be too big. I have a Raymarine C120 or 12 inch at the helm on a CD 22 Cruiser. And it fits, And no, it does not block my view, and no, I am not 6'10" either. Is it big, yes, but I run 2 charts in vertical orientation on it all the time, (one in close and one out at 6 miles usually) and they fit. I have never heard anyone say they wished they had a smaller screen. I have heard it said something like, WOW, wish I could see that on my screen, or Gee, I wish my screen was bigger.

I hear you, Harvey, I hear you! As Bob suggested, I'm going to play around with mock-ups as the next step.

And thanks for the input on the necessity of a radar arch. I'll revisit that topic later in a separate thread on how to carry an inflatable dinghy on the roof of a TomCat 24.

--Georgs[/img]

 

[thataway]

One other trick, is to make an aluminum bracket for the chart plotter. On occasion you can bring the top of the plotter down an inch, and still have the MFD at a good viewing angle. I did this with the 740S, and have industrial strength velcro glued to the bottom and the top of the center part of the console. This makes it much quicker to put on and remove the MFD.

 

[GxK]

One other trick, is to make an aluminum bracket for the chart plotter. On occasion you can bring the top of the plotter down an inch, and still have the MFD at a good viewing angle. I did this with the 740S, and have industrial strength velcro glued to the bottom and the top of the center part of the console. This makes it much quicker to put on and remove the MFD.

Thanks, Bob, I'll file that one away for when the time comes.

--Georgs

 

[journey on]

Broadband radar is the only way to go.

If you want a true 48 mi radar, try the Navico HALO 3 radar. With a 3' wingspan, you get everything from 10' to 250,000' (48 mi.)

However, if you're planning on using this on a 22/25 C-Dory, 48 mi sounds a little much. As does 24 mi. Remember, the radar is going to be mounted on a small boat, the horizon is only 9 mi away at most. One should try to get a good an image as possible in the range is which one is going to use the boat. I find this to be less then 9 mi and installed the best radar available: 3G which gives great images out to the horizon.

As for a radar arch, your choice. I have the high arch, but if you go with a radome, you can happily live with a pedestal.

Boris