Hydraulic Steering Upgrade

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From: Mike (Original Message) Sent: 11/27/2002 5:23 PM
On the Arima Boat Owners Group, I saw some discussion of the BayStar hydraulic steeering kit. It is made by Teleflex, and the complete installation kit costs about $500. It is rated for up to 150 HP outboard applications.

My steering cable is showing some deterioration, and has some cracks in the plastic cover. Since it is due for replacement soon, I am seriously considering going with the aforementioned system. Any thoughts or considerations concerning this application on a 22' C-Dory Cruiser with a Honda 75 hp main motor? Is the system adequate, or would it be wiser to go with the next step up in performance and dollars?

Thanks,

Mike

From: Redƒox Sent: 11/28/2002 11:27 AM
Mike that is way cheap! I believe my SeaStar system was the smallest one they made back about 3 years ago when I upgraded. I have about 950.$ into the system I have. The helm is the SeaStar 1.7 it generates 1000 psi, and is quite adequate. The hydraulic steering rack is the HC 5342. So it is probably the model just up from that one. Your gonna love it, it is one of the best improvements, and if one is boating in sever cold climate, it is also a safer steering system because it can not freeze up.

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/1/2002 4:52 PM
Hi Mike,

The Teleflex BayStar system is the "factory standard" hydraulic system from C-Dory on the CD22s. It's the model that was installed on C-Salt and it worked superbly even when equipped with the Raymarine ST5000+ autopilot.

The BayStar system uses 3/8" hydraulic tubing rather than the large hydraulic hoses that the SeaStatr system uses and has a molded helm unit rather than aluminum. They can do this because the BayStar system does not have to generate the amount of PSI that the SeaStar system does (which is what the 150hp limit is about). Those big hoses on the SeaStar system are spendy (and don't come with the helm kit) and come in one foot increments, the ends are swaged on. The 3/8" tubing the BayStar utilizes comes in a roll with the steering kit and is easy to cut with a tube cutter; it uses compression fittings rather than swaged fittings.

And the part I like best (other than the much lower price) ... the BayStar uses a fixed cylinder, moving ram system rather that the fixed ram and moving cylinder of the SeaStar. That means the hydralic tubes going to the cylinder on the outboard do not have to move in the motorwell. The BayStar system uses the same drag-link that the cable steering system does so it's easy to hook up at the motor end. In fact, the whole installation is pretty easy.

The BayStar cylinder is universal for all outboards since it doesn't connect directly to the engine; it's held by a rod through the tilt tube but doesn't connect to the outboard's steering arm. Instead, as mentioned above, it uses the standard drag link that came with the engine.

I love hydraulic steering so I'm not an objective person to ask about whether or not it's worth it. If I had a CD16 with a Honda BF50 it would have BayStar steering; I like it that much.

Plus it makes adding a good autopilot really easy.

Les

From: Mike Sent: 12/1/2002 5:06 PM
Sold!!

I have been getting nervous about the steering cable I have, so the $500 BayStar has become a no-brainer. Thanks. I'll let you know when I get it and start the install. Them Boat Shows ought to have a Teleflex booth, eh?

Thanks, Les.

Mike

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/6/2002 3:42 PM
Mike, what's that saying? Great minds run in the same direction?...or is it...jeez, I can't keep my hands off that darn CD.

I'm going to install the Bay Star hydraulic steering on my CD for sure and am seriously considering the the Sportpilot+. I keep telling my wife we only go around once so why stand short in the land of plenty.

Mark

From: Redƒox Sent: 12/6/2002 10:30 PM
Mark great choise, I have been considering auto pilot for some time now, let us know what you come up with.

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/8/2002 12:28 AM
After considerable thought and research, consultation with the guru of Cornet Bay, etc., I'm going to go with the Bay Star hydraulic steering and the ST5000 plus AutoPilot. No more indecision on this one.

Mark


From: Mike Sent: 12/8/2002 12:45 AM
Great plan, Mark. When does the install begin?

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/8/2002 10:07 AM
Les:

Fun Patrol has cable steering and it works just fine, easy, responsive, mimimal slop. I am skeptical about replacing something that works good with something more expensive and more complicated. Is there any reason to change to hydraulic? In previous boats with hydraulic steering I had to deal with the inevitable leaks and in one case a blown seal in a cylinder. What does it cost to replace the cables in my 89 Cruiser?

Roy

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/8/2002 10:23 PM
Mike, the temps are finally starting to cool off up here and although it is only 10 degrees now it's gonna get a lot colder. I'm not big on working outside when it is the 0 to -30 range so it will probably be in the spring before I will get a chance to start on it. I'll pick up all the hardware, etc. in the meantime and be ready to go. Might pre-fab some wood project in the meantime.

Mark

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/11/2002 8:26 AM
Hi Roy,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The same could be said for the manual steering I had on my 1952 Ford but the reality is that most of us now have power (hydrualic) steering in our cars (trucks) and wouldn't go back to manual . And that's really the gist of it; you get very light and responsive steering with no torque feedback from the engine and without the heavy feeling of the no-feedback cable steering. This is very subjective, a lot of folks didn't think manual steering in cars was heavy, but most folks like the feel of the hydraulic steering; especially smaller and less strong folks.

Having wrestled, beaten, cussed at and been bruised by frozen mechanical cable steering I don't believe that hydraulic steering is more complex. The non-pressurized systems we are talking about (and especially the made-for-outboards BayStar) are really quite simple and if repair is necessary the components are easily removed individually. I would also say that a frozen mechanical system is just that ... you aren't steering the boat. A leaking hydraulic system usually keeps working as long as you replenish the fluid; typically long enough to get somewhere and effect repairs.

As for maintenance, the mechanical steering cable should be removed from the tilt tube of the motor each year and thoroughly cleaned and lubricated. And should the whole system need replacing (not an unusual situation) it takes 3 to 4 hours to strip the system out and replace it. The mechanical helms wear too so they are normally part of the replacement kit. On an older boat it's often difficult to still get a cable that fits the older helm and it ususally isn't cost effective. Typical replacement cost is about $500 for a mechanical system including parts and labor. The C-Dory is one of the best boats with reagrd to cable replacement since half the boat doesn't have to come apart to get to it.

Lastly, I really like an autopilot; I realize that is a personal choice. Especially running alone in the fog we have here it's like having a very attentive extra crew member aboard that steers the exact course to the next waypoint while I concentrate on the radar and traffic. I much prefer the hydraulic autopilot systems (like the ST5000+) to the mechanical SportPilot. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the SportPilot but the ST5000+ is definitely a step up in terms of available operating parameters, it doesn't take up the space the SportPilot does around the helm area, and the hydraulic pump is quieter, quicker and more precise. It also doesn't turn the steering wheel while the autopilot is operating which I think is a safer situation. And lastly, the ST5000+ has the option of using the ST600R remote in the cockpit (or anywhere else for that matter).

Bottom line: if you've got mechanical steering and you're happy with it then by all means leave it alone (other than maintenance!). Hydraulic steering is not necessary. If you're not happy with your mechanical system or if it's due for replacement then I think making the move to hydraulic steering makes perfect sense and is a nice upgrade for most folks for a cost not much higher than cable steering. I don't know anyone who's made the change that isn't happy with the results (excepting Mike on Sealife and he had other issues with the twin Suzuki's and the SportPilot). In the end these are pleasure boats; I think it's important to keep it that way and do what makes the whole thing fun...there are no 'wrong' choices here.

Happy Cruising,

Les

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/12/2002 7:09 AM
Thanks for the reply Les.

My cable system is in pretty good shape now, but I agree with you on the autopilot and I am weighing the pros and cons of the hydraulic conversion before I commit to a pilot. I used pilots on my sailboats, like almost never hand steered. You were going very slow and had lots of other things to do besides steer for days on end. I find with the C-Dory's much faster speed, I usually would want to be right on top of things at the helm, but then again, I do a lot of 6 knot "cruising".

later....Roy

From: Fun Patrol Sent: 12/15/2002 7:55 AM
I think I'll wait till I win the lottery before I consider a change in the steering. Looks like the Baystar/ST5000 plus addition is going to run about $2,000...that'll buy a lot of gas.

Roy

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/16/2002 6:47 AM
That'll buy a lot of gas!

Besides, you need to save up for that SSI cooler!

Les
 
Well it’s been a long time and I figure it’s time to revive the steering discussion. I’m getting ready to install Baystar hydraulic steering on my ’81 Angler, mostly because I can’t tolerate all the feedback from my “no-feedback” mechanical system. With a Yamaha F80 that’s much heavier than my old 2-stroke motor, under choppy conditions I have to keep a death grip on the wheel as the boat rocks back and forth; otherwise the motor swings all over the place.

The other reason for hydraulic steering is that I want to install an autopilot. I’d been looking at the Raymarine St5000 Plus, because it had the ability to take NMEA input from a GPS and steer to a waypoint. But then I read that the newer Sportpilot Plus autopilots can also do this. Although there’s not usually much of a cost difference, I was at the Westmarine bargain center recently and there must have had about a dozen Sportpilot Plus units that looked to be returns. The cashier told me she could sell me one for $600 with a 90-day warranty, which seems like a bargain. So I had a few questions for anyone that has some experience with these, like:

1. At that price or close to it, is there any other good reason to spend more money on the ST5000 Plus?
2. I understand the Sportpilot’s are usually used with mechanical steering, but is there any reason they won’t work with the hydraulic steering?
3. How well can I expect the Sportpilot (or the ST5000 for that matter) to work when I’m trolling upwind in choppy water with a kicker connected with a steering link? I would think this would be tough for any autopilot with a boat this light.

Thanks in advance – Jim F. (Das Flug)
 
Jim F.,

Only a partial answer because I have no personal experience with the Sport Pilot. I've had the ST5000+ and hydraulic steering on two boats, and they work very well together. As to holding a heading while trolling, guess it depends a lot on how much wind and other conditions. I've found that the autopilot can do a better job than I can (there will be comments!!), and I recommend the combination. I'll be installing them again soon. HTH,

Dusty
 
Jim,

I have the Sportpilot + our our 22' with twins and hydraulic steering. My experience is that the Sportpilot works alright, especially when you add a remote steering control. My only issue would be that the Sportpilot+ hunts back and forth more than the ST5000 at any speed above 5 knots. The "Linear sensor" that attaches to the steering tube at the engines seems to be the main culprit on our boat. The ST5000 comes (or at least used to come) with a different arm style sensor that appears to be more accurate. You may be able to purchase this arm style sensor for the Sportpilot+ instead of the tube style "Linear sensor".

The ST5000 is a more substancially built product that looks like it could handle higher horsepower motors and tougher conditions. The ST5000 also has a pretty nice digital display, I think DaNag's new C-Dory has the ST5000 and the dash looks very professional compared to ours. Les Lampmann knows a lot about these two, I would suggest giving him a call. If you can get the Sportpilot + for substantially less, I say go for it as it does work pretty well! I also have two young co-pilots that love to drive anything that moves so our Sportpilot rarily gets the chance to warm up.

Good luck!

Chivita Dave
 
Jim,

I posted a couple photo's in the Outboard forum of how the factory installed our Baystar hydraulic system and the Sportpilot+. Somehow I posted one shot twice, sorry! (Mike or Bill, please feel free to delete as I could not figure out how to.)

Notice that the hydraulic system and the autopilot together move the steering wheel substantially forward towards the Captain's chair, this has not bothered me but I'm also a string bean. As you can see on the "Backside..." photo, there are just the two hydraulic lines coming out of the back. They are rather ridgid/inflexable so you have to make the electrical conform to the lines and not the other way around.

The photo of the engine shows the Baystar hydraulic ram on top and the "linear sensor" hoseclamped below it. This is how the C-dory factory installed it. The sensor has a small wire (approximately 14-16 gauge) coming out of one side, this wire connects to the backside of the autopilot at the helm.

Hope this helps you visualize the end results.

Chivita Dave
 
Thanks for the responses guys, especially for the pictures Dave. That's a big help. I didn't realize just how much the Sportpilot kicks the wheel back into the helm seat. looks like I would wind up having to move something to accomodate it.

I was wondering - Do either the hydraulic ram or linear sensor on the motor interfere with the motor tilt-up?

Jim F.
 
Jim,

The Sportpilot adds about an inch or so, the Baystar hydraulic system is the big space consumer. Let me know if you want me to measure how much they add together.

As to the tilt portion, it depends on what motor you have. The Honda 40 horse and up do not have a problem. Some of the other manufacturers are different. My Dad and I put a Yamaha 40 on a Dory hull he made and we had a heck of a time making it work. The Yamaha 40 horse has additional brackets on the front that you would use if you were using the manual screw in bolts like a small portable kicker. If you've ever had a small (portable) motor that you could remove from the transom by un-screwing two bolts by hand then you know what I'm talking about. In order to attach the Baystar hydraulic ram to the Yamaha we had to cut those two front brackets off. The Yamaha is held on the transom by 4 bolts that go through the rear so you don't need those front brackets. We tried everything possible to get around hacking the motor up but even the Yamaha dealer and Teleflex (they make the Baystar system) state those brackets must come off. Even the great Les Lapmann recommended the hacksaw, and I don't mess with him. Between Les and his Dad, they have too many friends who mess around with REALLY BIG BOATS, armed ones at that!

Once my Dad hacked those off, there was no problem. But if you don't hack them off, tilting the motor up will compress the hydraulic ram and bend it.

I would recommend checking your Yamaha to see if it has those brackets on the front, or check out the Teleflex web site (sorry, don't have address although it's probably www.teleflex.com or something). They have a pretty good site that has downloadable info on how to mount their hardware to all the major motor manufacturers. As I recall you can get the entire mounting instruction sheet for your motor from that site. Teleflex also has a great customer service tech line, but again I don't have the number (I know, not much help am I?) West Marine can get that number for you if you call them.

Those two products really do work well, so don't let me discourage you and they are not hard to install. Just want to save you from any surprises before you get into it. The hydraulic portion will probably take the most time but you should be able to do that over a weekend if your taking beer breaks, if you're addicted to Starbucks like I am it will probably take you only a day.

Chivita Dave
 
Whoa! That must have been painful to amputate part of your nice new Yamaha motor. My 385-lb F80 beast didn’t come with that type of mount, so I don’t think I’ll have the same problem. All the same I’ll check with Teleflex and see if they know anything specific about my motor. I’m going ahead with it one way or another, and I figured it would be at least a weekend project, depending on how many beer/”step-back-and-survey-my-kingdom” breaks I take.

Thanks again - Jim
 
Hi Jim,

First of all the ST5000+ is history; it's been replaced by the ST6001 which is better and less expensive. There are two outboard models available; the S1 and S1G. The S1G has a built-in gyro which really only helps if you're tying the A/P into a Raymarine suite with radar, chartplotting, etc. It does help the A/P a little bit but not enough to warrant the extra expense IMO.

I'm seeing the ST6001 S1 (no gyro) units going for under $1,000. That's a very sophisticated A/P with great performance for very little money compared to just a couple of years ago.

I know I'm spending your money but with hydraulic steering in the boat I wouldn't even consider not going with a hydraulic A/P; the difference in performance is substantial. The SportPilots are great on mechanically steered boats; especially as there isn't much other choice. And this isn't taking a swipe at those that have the SportPilot and like it...if I had one I'd use it (it works) but if I had hydraulic steering I'd rather have the ST6001 (it works better).

One of the nice things about the ST6001 is that none of the working components of the system are really visible; just a nice control head on the dash (or nearby). The brain box and hydraulic pump get tucked away. And there's nothing hanging around the steering wheel.

The brain in the ST6001 is much more powerful and faster than the SportPilot units which is one of the reasons it's better. The hydraulic pump is also faster than the motor on the SportPilot so it can correct more quickly. And finally, a hydraulic A/P does not spin the wheel when it operates the steering; I think this is safer than having a spoked wheel being turned by a motor and potential catching someone off guard.
 
Les - That's great information and about enough to sell me on the 6001. I wondered whether there was more to it than just the hydraulic vs. wheel drive. A/P's are a bit of money, but the more I think about it the more it looks like a good investment. I think about all the times I've travelled in fog trying to watch the radar and watch for other boats while trying to keep a compass heading. The AP's got to make for much safer boating (or at least that's what I'll tell my wife.)

Anyway, thanks for taking the time; it's greatly appreciated.

Jim
 
Hi Jim,

It is a good story for your wife; but it happens to also have merit. It's difficult to hold a good heading in the fog without a lot of experience; we all veer off in a circle when we have no visual orientation and constantly watching the compass is tiring and takes you away from other chores. It's especially fine when steering to a waypoint since wind, waves and current are compensated for by the information the A/P gets from the GPS and the course is better than most of us can manage by hand. Having the autopilot steering frees the skipper up to maintain a better watch for what can be seen and heard and to monitor the radar (if aboard).

You can also add the ST600R remote (at any time) and have control of the A/P from the cockpit which makes it super for fishing.
 
Jim,

If you run around in the fog on radar -- don't even think about not having an A/P aboard. Because of our location here at Deception Pass, low visibility with radar is the way we boat. A good A/P is like having an outstanding helmsman aboard. I boat alone a lot -- and much of the time in a low visibility situation. Being able to watch the radar, stare into the fog trying to pick up other boats, looking for drift, etc., without worrying about the boat's heading is worth every cent spent on the A/P and truly a safety factor. And it goes without saying, being able to hold a steady heading makes evaluating the threatening incoming targets a simple operation instead of a sweat job.

Tell your wife old Dusty said it is a significant safety factor! And it is.

Dusty
 
Just an update on this project – I bought the Baystar steering and St6001 Autopilot and spent 2 weekends getting everything installed. Everything went smoothly for the most part, and thank god none of the hydraulic connections leaked, because draining and refilling the system looked like no fun at all. There wasn’t enough room in the transom well to pull out the old steering cable without yanking the 400# motor off, so I thought I’d be smart and just whack it off with a grinder. All that went fine, but then I found out I had to pull the motor off anyway to get the new Baystar guide rod into the steering tube. So much for that bright idea. The connecting hardware that came with the linear rudder sensor bolted right up perfectly to the Baystar steering cylinder. (Chivita Dave - I think Raymarine must have made some improvements on this one.)

Because all that wasn’t a big enough project by itself, I found a deal on a never-used Raymarine L760 chartplotter/fishfinder that I couldn’t pass up ($500, complete with GPS antenna and Cmap charts for my area, from a failed boat restoration project). It connects up pretty seamlessly with the 6001 AP using Raymarine “Seatalk ” connections.

I finally got out to calibrate and Sea-trial the whole system last weekend, and it all works better than I could have expected. Even at the lowest response setting the AP steers a much tighter course than I can, even at trolling speeds. I can put the cursor on the chartplotter on a spot, hit “go to cursor”, and them let the AP take over. I’m definitely gonna be spoiled now.

Anyway thanks for all the feedback, and thanks especially to Les for talking me into the 6001 AP system. Now it’s time to quit working on boat projects and go fishing.

Jim F (Das Flug)
 
Jim, good info here for all. I've got twin 45's (Honda's) with Baystar already installed. Looked at the autopilot install manuals on the 'net but can't figure out where the hydraulic pump should go. Some of the pictures show it in one of the stern lazarettes, is that where you put yours? Forsee any problems in installing the autopilot after the steering system is in and running?

Charlie
 
Just went back and read some of the original posts and looked at what I've got and darned if I don't have Sea Star, not Bay Star. Les, you're the guru, what impact will that have. I read the bit about which part moves in the motor well, the tubing, etc.

Charlie
 
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